Arise Sir Tony (Blair)

[andysays]

...And looking at comments the main reason people signed is Iraq.

Its all very well to tell people they have poor political analysis but Blair is recent history. This is someone who those whose actions directly affected this country. I don't think those who signed can be dismissed as just venting...

One of the things which has always puzzled me about much of the anger directed at Blair over Iraq is that there appears to be a sense of surprise or betrayal about his actions.

It's almost personalised in a way which suggests that people either don't recognise that any Prime Minister who had been in charge at the time would have behaved the same, or they thought before Iraq that Blair was somehow "on our side", and we could genuinely have expected different from him.

And this latest development really doesn't demonstrate anything new, it just gives people the opportunity to go through the same stuff all over again.

 

[Sue]

So do nothing then.

Sometimes doing nothing is as effective as doing something.

 

[Gramsci]

Sometimes doing nothing is as effective as doing something.

I do find that a somewhat nihilistic viewpoint.

 

[andysays]

Sometimes doing nothing is as effective as doing something.

Especially if the "something" is signing an online petition

 

[Aladdin]

Arise Sir Tony and go now, and go to Grytviken,
And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made;
Nine bean-rows will you have there, a hive for the honey-bee,
And live alone in the bee-loud glade.

No.

Do not denegrate that poem please

 

[Sue]

I do find that a somewhat nihilistic viewpoint.

I find the viewpoint (not saying this is yours, just an observation) that doing something is better than doing nothing a weird one as it surely depends on what that something is.

 

[Aladdin]

I think quite a few were expecting Ghislane Maxwell to be made a Duchess of the Order of Saints of the House of the Lady of the Dungeon of the Palace of the Tower of London despite her recent bad press. Prince Andrew was particularly in favour afaik.

You forgot Caractacus

 

[Gramsci]

One of the things which has always puzzled me about much of the anger directed at Blair over Iraq is that there appears to be a sense of surprise or betrayal about his actions.

It's almost personalised in a way which suggests that people either don't recognise that any Prime Minister who had been in charge at the time would have behaved the same, or they thought before Iraq that Blair was somehow "on our side", and we could genuinely have expected different from him.

And this latest development really doesn't demonstrate anything new, it just gives people the opportunity to go through the same stuff all over again.

On Iraq he could have said to Bush no. That was choice he made.

 

[SpookyFrank]

One of the things which has always puzzled me about much of the anger directed at Blair over Iraq is that there appears to be a sense of surprise or betrayal about his actions.

It's almost personalised in a way which suggests that people either don't recognise that any Prime Minister who had been in charge at the time would have behaved the same, or they thought before Iraq that Blair was somehow "on our side", and we could genuinely have expected different from him.

And this latest development really doesn't demonstrate anything new, it just gives people the opportunity to go through the same stuff all over again.

When you go around calling yourself Prime Minister, being held responsible for things is an occupational hazard.

 

[danny la rouge]

So do nothing then.

No, do something useful that doesn’t relinquish your power to others and confirm their power.

 

[Gramsci]

No, do something useful that doesn’t relinquish your power to others and confirm their power.

Every now and then I get this from hard left people I know who criticise me for being involved in local community issues ( in my small way). I don't find it helpful or useful.

 

[Sue]

Every now and then I get this from hard left people I know who criticise me for being involved in local community issues ( in my small way). I don't find it helpful or useful.

Getting involved in local community stuff is great and I can't see why anyone would have a deal with that. Maybe it's the actual community stuff you're doing though that they have an issue with?

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I think it's pretty silly to call Tony Blair an extremist.

Well that says much about you. What he did with Iraq alone reveals him to be an extremist, but then there's all the rest of it.

Would you also not consider Thatcher an extremist?

You're just so 'sensible' and 'rational' aren't you

 

[danny la rouge]

Every now and then I get this from hard left people I know who criticise me for being involved in local community issues ( in my small way). I don't find it helpful or useful.

If you’re involved in community stuff, no matter how small, that’s more useful than signing a petition, no matter what petition.

Direct action means the working class - that’s those who have to sell their Labour for a living - acting to solve or mitigate the problems that face them; relearning the self confidence needed to manage their own affairs. Even in a small way, to the extent your life and energy allows, that is useful. Even promoting the ideas to others is useful. Not everyone is able to get out doing stuff.

I don’t require a time sheet from you or anyone. It’s not about individual justification. That in itself would be a liberal perversion of the ideals. It’s about recognising the structural nature of the problem. Which is that only the oppressed can tackle their oppression. The oppressors are literally the wrong people to ask.

 

[Gramsci]

Getting involved in local community stuff is great and I can't see why anyone would have a deal with that. Maybe it's the actual community stuff you're doing though that they have an issue with?

Its the line that this is deviation from the class struggle and you should be building a working class movement. Fairly standard line I've come across. Don't get it a lot but it happens. Usually its about recruiting you to their particular organisation/ movement.

 

[danny la rouge]

Its the line that this is deviation from the class struggle and you should be building a working class movement. Fairly standard line I've come across. Don't get it a lot but it happens. Usually its about recruiting you to their particular organisation/ movement.

Ah, Trotskyists. I’d ignore them.

 

[Sue]

Its the line that this is deviation from the class struggle and you should be building a working class movement. Fairly standard line I've come across. Don't get it a lot but it happens. Usually its about recruiting you to their particular organisation/ movement.

Well leave them to crack on with their WC movement eh?

 

[Johnny Vodka]

People complaining about a crap implementation of something they already think is crap? That feels a bit pointless tbh.

And send a message to whom? Is that whom listening and do they care..?

TBH, the more people repeat Blair is potentially a war criminal who should be put in front of a jury, the better. If enough people sign it, it might get coverage in the press. Not that it will stop the prick turning up on our TV screens or making millions per lecture in the middle east.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Working class hero, from Fettes.

Fucking appalling lot at Fettes, we played them at hockey.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I look on Blair's gong with complete equanimity.

The honours system means absolutely nothing now. When you have knighthoods given for hitting a tennis ball, or kicking a football, it shows how shallow and meaningless it has become.

Knighthoods should go to people who have done something outstanding for the good of humanity. Banting and Best, Berners-Lee, Fleming, Brunel, Telford etc, they are the type people who deserve national plaudits, not some semi-articulate footballer.

Oh, and not forgetting one of my personal heroes, Joseph Bazalgette - Wikipedia

Not only did he design something that is still in use 150 years later, it is still in use because of his foresight, he designed it to cope at the time, then doubled the capacity. It is due to him that London isn't knee deep in shit. He also designed Hammersmith bridge.

 

[andysays]

On Iraq he could have said to Bush no. That was choice he made.

When you go around calling yourself Prime Minister, being held responsible for things is an occupational hazard.

I'm not denying it was a choice he made, nor suggesting that he isn't responsible for it.

But what still puzzles me is the surprise and personal affront some people still seem to feel over it, as if they genuinely expected him to do anything different.

I'm not aiming that at anyone in particular, just making a general observation, but if either of you want to address that specific point, you're more than welcome to do so.

 

[andysays]

Well that says much about you. What he did with Iraq alone reveals him to be an extremist, but then there's all the rest of it.

Would you also not consider Thatcher an extremist?

You're just so 'sensible' and 'rational' aren't you

It's not extreme behaviour for a British Prime Minister though, it's absolute typical.

Does anyone here genuinely think that either Major or Brown, just to compare him to his immediate predecessor and successors, would have done anything that different if they had been PM at the time the situation arose?

 

[krtek a houby]

BPMs always sidle up to the US warmakers. But, iirc, it was the blatant lies he told that got people out marching. 2 million on one of them.

And him and Dubya getting all godly pious about the Iraq debacle.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

It's not extreme behaviour for a British Prime Minister though, it's absolute typical.

Does anyone here genuinely think that either Major or Brown, just to compare him to his immediate predecessor and successors, would have done anything that different if they had been PM at the time the situation arose?

All PM's have been extremists.

 

[teuchter]

Well that says much about you. What he did with Iraq alone reveals him to be an extremist, but then there's all the rest of it.

It just shows that I have a vaguely realistic measure of what "most people" think.

"Extreme" is a relative term not an absolute measure.

People who describe Tony Blair as extremist just show that they have almost no interaction with mainstream society, presumably because they consider themselves so morally superior to the masses.

 

[JimW]

Think if you sign a petition etc it's saying it matters in some way, with the implication that if the honours system was full of the deserving and good and purged of the evil Blair types everything would be fine, which is counterproductive I think, or at least not a battleground worth venturing on to.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Why is anyone surprised? Of course he gets the highest honour, that’s the system working exactly as it was designed to.

 

[Peter Painter]

I'm not denying it was a choice he made, nor suggesting that he isn't responsible for it.

But what still puzzles me is the surprise and personal affront some people still seem to feel over it, as if they genuinely expected him to do anything different.

I'm not aiming that at anyone in particular, just making a general observation, but if either of you want to address that specific point, you're more than welcome to do so.

I think I agree. Of course, I was just as angry and pissed off as so many of us were when he ignored the UN and the million+ marchers. Like many, I consider him a war criminal. But just as I wasn't surprised by his decision to go it alone with Bush and invade Iraq, neither am I too surprised he has been knighted.

I never trusted him. As far as I'm concerned he was untrustworthy from the moment, as Shadow Home Secretary, he offered absolutely no opposition to the Criminal Justice Bill. That is when he provided the personal affront to me.

The illegal invasion of Iraq was a more heinous crime but it wasn't as if that decision made me lose trust in him. He'd already lost that.

 

[keybored]

And he bairned Cherie at Balmoral when their "contraceptive equipment" wasn't taken with them.

He left his personality at home?

 

[danny la rouge]

He left his personality at home?

No, his calendar: they’re practising Catholics.