Are you an anarchist but not a member of an anarchist organisation?

[Magnus McGinty]

I may join. On the basis of it being the best of what’s available. I can lay out leaflets.

 

[Pickman's model]

I may join. On the basis of it being the best of what’s available. I can lay out leaflets.

I bet you'd run a good-looking stall

 

[Serge Forward]

Oi, you need to be a bit more positive than "better than the other dross"

Come to think of it, that could be our recruitment slogan for 2022:
Join the ACG! The best of the fair to middling

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Oi, you need to be a bit more positive than "better than the other dross"

Come to think of it, that could be our recruitment slogan for 2022:
Join the ACG! The best of the fair to middling

But don’t you think it’s like that sometimes?
I did try setting up a group with others but they were so lazy (as was I) it never occurred. So then you have to go window shopping. I can’t do the ML groups. it leaves very little. Was in the orbit of the IWCA at one point but that has drifted away. A crying shame. Their kind of direct action is what is needed IMO.
And obvs the ICG split with the AF (I think) over the latter’s focus on identity politics. I can agree with that position.

 

[hitmouse]

To be clear - the Union was ok with me carrying on being the rep. Wrongly in my view.

It was my fellow senior managers and HR who said I needed to step down.

If the union was alright with you being a rep, but HR took a harder line on the union needing to be independent from management, then does that mean that we also need to get a second opinion from your HR department about whether you should be able to join the ACG?

I’m pretty sure it was an anarchist organisation, because we did local actions and participated in national actions

As opposed to participating in national action, which is a bit less desirable from an anarchist point of view.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

If the union was alright with you being a rep, but HR took a harder line on the union needing to be independent from management, then does that mean that we also need to get a second opinion from your HR department about whether you should be able to join the ACG?

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Is Count Cuckula London ACG then? I think I’ve worked out that everyone else on here isn’t.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Is Count Cuckula London ACG then?

No. I'm in Kent. Charlie Mowbray is in London though.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

No. I'm in Kent. Charlie Mowbray is in London though.

Ok I’ll contact him.

 

[Shechemite]

If they're a doctor who isn't in one of these categories

• those who have the power to restrain or imprison in detention centres of all varieties
• full-time paid trade union officials
• members of political parties
• strike breakers
• those who have ultimate power to hire and fire or those whose primary role in the workplace is to hire and fire
• those who have the ultimate power to remove benefits
• those who make a living out of the exploitation of others

Then why not? Though I suspect many quacks may well fall into at least one of those.

The anti-quackness is an attractive quality of the more ‘critical’ parts of anarchism

I suspect he's hinting that as some (very few) doctors can detain people under a mental health section they fall into the first category.

It's not a good argument imo, very few can or ever do it, it's done as a last resort, and for the good and also usually the safety of the patient and sometimes others. They're also hospitals not detention centres.

It was a question not an argument (believe that or not is up to you). Is an ‘Assessment and Treatment Unit’ less of a detention centre because of its nice sounding name?

 

[Shechemite]

The role of the mental health system is to manage labour on behalf of state and capital.

The alternatives (eg quackery) are often both more dangerous and more controlling, and yes, there are plenty of people who work in the (mainstream) mental health system that would be on the right side of the barricades.

The ‘policing’ of unproductive labour by the medical profession isn’t limited to the MHA btw, a lot of it is enforcing austerity and conditioning patients not to want to access services

 

[planetgeli]

They're also hospitals not detention centres.

With some experience I do have a problem with this line. My son was locked up in St Annes Tottenham a while back and he received an appalling level of 'treatment' (next to nothing) while those who knew him were ignored. He was left to fester and let out 4 days early with a follow up that lasted one visit. It definitely felt like a detention centre, to him and to me.

 

[purenarcotic]

I don’t think there is anything local to me. I wish there was, as broadly I think I align with a lot of the principles, but I’m not very well versed on the deeper theory (and if I’m honest I struggle with what I’ve read in that I find it sense and hard to get through) and I’m not sure on how some things would work practically and that makes me a bit hesitant. I’d like to talk it through with people who know more than me, but worry partly that I would look silly and partly that people would be irritated by it and think my questions were daft. And although my job isn’t middle class, my background is about as middle class as you can get, so I’m not even sure I’m right for something like that. I like to think I would be on the right side of the barricade when it came to it though.

 

[Dom Traynor]

If they're a doctor who isn't in one of these categories

• those who have the power to restrain or imprison in detention centres of all varieties
• full-time paid trade union officials
• members of political parties
• strike breakers
• those who have ultimate power to hire and fire or those whose primary role in the workplace is to hire and fire
• those who have the ultimate power to remove benefits
• those who make a living out of the exploitation of others

Then why not? Though I suspect many quacks may well fall into at least one of those.

I actually rejected a group of debt collectors who wanted to join our union. Told them we didn't want to get involved in that. We do organise some privatised corrections officers though. Who are sound and quite militant as well as being entirely indigenous or Pasifika.

 

[LDC]

With some experience I do have a problem with this line. My son was locked up in St Annes Tottenham a while back and he received an appalling level of 'treatment' (next to nothing) while those who knew him were ignored. He was left to fester and let out 4 days early with a follow up that lasted one visit. It definitely felt like a detention centre, to him and to me.

Sorry you both had that. Shit experiences of the NHS are far from uncommon. But maybe largely related to the oft talked about problems with the NHS; funding, poor staffing, stress, etc.?

Don't agree that's it's as simple that the role of the NHS is to manage labour on behalf of the state and capital.

But totally agree there's a huge issue with what health under capitalism means. A good discussion to have and one I'd like to have on another thread...

 

[Serge Forward]

I don’t think there is anything local to me. I wish there was, as broadly I think I align with a lot of the principles, but I’m not very well versed on the deeper theory (and if I’m honest I struggle with what I’ve read in that I find it sense and hard to get through) and I’m not sure on how some things would work practically and that makes me a bit hesitant. I’d like to talk it through with people who know more than me, but worry partly that I would look silly and partly that people would be irritated by it and think my questions were daft. And although my job isn’t middle class, my background is about as middle class as you can get, so I’m not even sure I’m right for something like that. I like to think I would be on the right side of the barricade when it came to it though.

Background is unimportant. If the story is true, Alan Sugar started off a horny-handed son of toil. Fuck that cunt and those like him. What's important is who and what you are now, and which side you're on.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Background is unimportant. If the story is true, Alan Sugar started off a horny-handed son of toil. Fuck that cunt and those like him. What's important is who and what you are now, and which side you're on.

At least he’s honest, though.

 

[8ball]

I don’t think there is anything local to me.

There are anarchist communes everywhere!

 

[rich!]

I’ve been out at band practice, so just coming to this now. For me, the distinction is around owning capital. Do you have to work (sell your labour of hand or brain) for a living, or can you live on the proceeds of your capital? There is a somewhat longer discussion to be had about the managing/coordinating class, which I’ve gone into at length on here before, but that’s the basic division: ownership.

This is where someone comes along and says “ah, but what is the means of production really? Could it be a shovel?” And so on. But everyone knows very well how control and power is divided.

Does that mean that people in the capital owning class are automatically bad people, or can’t be sympathetic to the social revolution? No, not necessarily. But their material interests are necessarily for the way things are.

It’s true that the IWW rule is unnuanced. (That’s a word, right?). But that’s the way of one sentence rules. Their (our) rule book goes into more detail.

Probably picking up the wrong part of this discussion to join, but where do IWW/ACG/other orgs stand on employee owned companies?

(Let's be clear - that means >50% of the shares are owned by people you will meet if you turn up in the office, and there is no "special class" of shares that someone else has)

 

[rich!]

oh, and backtracking to Danny's original ask:
Post-Trump I started direct debits to a lot of people, but I didn't join any "recruiting organisations"
The COVID wave of mutual aid meant I was involved in setting up what I would describe as an anarchist veg box scheme (2/3 of our veg boxes are given away to people in need...) and several of the regulars have got that it's an anarchist organisation... so I might have set one up.
But in terms of the things that are formal "anarchist political organisations" - I can't imagine doing so.
(And my most local such organisation - on their mailing list, support their activities, have given them money when they have needed - went full TERF a couple of years ago...)
On the other hand, we have a wave of copwatch organisations appearing across London, and I can't think of anything more anarchist than grassroots community intervention against the police...

 

[redsquirrel]

Any modern anarchist books people would recommend? I was going to start a new thread recently, but think it's okay to ask here.

Coming a bit late and it's not that modern but I'd recommend the Platform. Whether you agree with it in total or not it does lay out the arguments for the usefulness of organisation.

I don’t think there is anything local to me. I wish there was, as broadly I think I align with a lot of the principles, but I’m not very well versed on the deeper theory (and if I’m honest I struggle with what I’ve read in that I find it sense and hard to get through) and I’m not sure on how some things would work practically and that makes me a bit hesitant. I’d like to talk it through with people who know more than me, but worry partly that I would look silly and partly that people would be irritated by it and think my questions were daft. And although my job isn’t middle class, my background is about as middle class as you can get, so I’m not even sure I’m right for something like that. I like to think I would be on the right side of the barricade when it came to it though.

Don't know where you are but I really would not be worried about people being irritated about questions/not knowing theory.
There were people at the Manchester book fair that just dropped by to see what things were about, generally people are eager to talk. And if there are no physical events then there are virtual ones.

There may be a few dicks but generally people are pretty welcoming

 

[danny la rouge]

Probably picking up the wrong part of this discussion to join, but where do IWW/ACG/other orgs stand on employee owned companies?

(Let's be clear - that means >50% of the shares are owned by people you will meet if you turn up in the office, and there is no "special class" of shares that someone else has)

I’m not aware of an official position of either organisation about such an arrangement.

 

[locomotive]

I was in the AF when I was a student. I left because I was fed up with the lifestyle aspects of the Anarchist scene and the cycle of 'prepare for a protest, have a protest, prepare for a protest'. The student protests and anti-austerity stuff was a lot of fun but seemed utterly detached from the real world in the end.

I've come round to a more syndicalist / council-communist way of thinking but am pretty despondent. I don't know how you can build industrial power like the CNT/FAI managed in the deindustrialised and fragmented world we live in.

I'd like to join an org again but I don't know if I'd be anything more than a name on a membership list.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I'd like to join an org again but I don't know if I'd be anything more than a name on a membership list.

That's how I felt for a long time, and even at the start of when I was in the ACG. I also felt very hopeless and nihilistic about everything, like there was just no point and that I couldn't do anything. So I think I can relate to that. But it turned out, for me, that it was good to be in an org. I found I did have something to offer, and stuff I could do. I think we all have something we can offer - wether it's shifting freesheets, or writing the odd article, participating in meetings etc. I started making my anarchist YouTube videos and writing articles, so that gave me some confidence and a bit of a sense of purpose to be honest. And during the summer I had the confidence to go onto the street on my own and distribute freesheets.

But yeah, I understand. I also used to be in the AF years ago.

 

[danny la rouge]

I was in the AF when I was a student. I left because I was fed up with the lifestyle aspects of the Anarchist scene and the cycle of 'prepare for a protest, have a protest, prepare for a protest'. The student protests and anti-austerity stuff was a lot of fun but seemed utterly detached from the real world in the end.

I've come round to a more syndicalist / council-communist way of thinking but am pretty despondent. I don't know how you can build industrial power like the CNT/FAI managed in the deindustrialised and fragmented world we live in.

I'd like to join an org again but I don't know if I'd be anything more than a name on a membership list.

You sound like you’re politically more suited to the ACG. But you’re right: current working class organisation is at a very, very, very low ebb. There’s no point in sugar coating that fact.

However, if you only want to be a paper member of something, maybe the ACG isn’t your thing. We’re not intended as an anarchist communist fan club. We do actually do stuff.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

But you’re right: current working class organisation is at a very, very, very low ebb. There’s no point in sugar coating that fact.

This is undeniably true. It's why I still wonder what the point is sometimes, to be honest, together with the very bleak situation we are in atm. But we have to keep going and do our thing, so I keep at it. And our group in Kent does seem to be gradually growing somewhat and being more active, so there's definitely something to aim for and build on.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I feel I should also just say that we do understand that not everyone has the time to be actively involved. People are often busy with work, and sometimes family stuff, these days. That's just the reality of modern life under capitalism unfortunately.

 

[locomotive]

However, if you only want to be a paper member of something, maybe the ACG isn’t your thing. We’re not intended as an anarchist communist fan club. We do actually do stuff.

I totally get that, which is why I'll probably just sit around reading books and pdfs for the foreseeable future

When you say you 'actually do stuff', what do you do? It would be good to get a sense of what different orgs are up to.

 

[lefteri]

Now there's a good freudian slip. Unless it's intentional.

it was a mistype, but i overrode autocorrect

 

[danny la rouge]

I totally get that, which is why I'll probably just sit around reading books and pdfs for the foreseeable future

When you say you 'actually do stuff', what do you do? It would be good to get a sense of what different orgs are up to.

We use the especifismo model to get involved in social movements and community activity. Especifismo: The anarchist praxis of building popular movements and revolutionary organization in South America - Adam Weaver