Are you a Marxist

[DotCommunist]

liberals say its gone too far. Liberals give out names and adresses. Liberals hold the coats. Its never been starker than the latest iteration of whiggism. The death squads will come for you next but no, grass up commies anyway. The reason some of the anger and dismissiveness comes through is because we remember. Solidarity in lip service only, pragmatists

 

[redsquirrel]

Pity about all the people you liberals killed.

When Moderates Made Things Worse

Here too

What's bothering you? I'm finding your responses a little confusing.

Like the Greens and other social democrats he wants to have some shitty liberal-left mash up, burying his head in the sand that the politics of liberals are opposed to those of socialists, communists and anarchists.

 

[Pickman's model]

liberals say its gone too far. Liberals give out names and adresses. Liberals hold the coats. Its never been starker than the latest iteration of whiggism. The death squads will come for you next but no, grass up commies anyway. The reason some of the anger and dismissiveness comes through is because we remember. Solidarity in lip service only, pragmatists

 

[Sea Star]

I've been to a few left organised events in the last couple of years and while I see solidarity expressed for gay people, black people, women, etc . I've yet to see anyone express support for trans people. I see plenty on the left against us. Nothing supporting us. So I choose to disengage.
I can't say for sure whether TERF use of Marxism is valid or not. I know TERFs are wrong, but maybe their position follows logically from Marxism?
But it isn't just a TERF problem. I suspect a huge portion of the left is just scared to confront this or to give trans people support openly.
So until I see explicit support for the trans struggle I'm out.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I've been to a few left organised events in the last couple of years and while I see solidarity expressed for gay people, black people, women, etc . I've yet to see anyone express support for trans people. I see plenty on the left against us. Nothing supporting us. So I choose to disengage.
I can't say for sure whether TERF use of Marxism is valid or not. I know TERFs are wrong, but maybe their position follows logically from Marxism?
But it isn't just a TERF problem. I suspect a huge portion of the left is just scared to confront this or to give trans people support openly.
So until I see explicit support for the trans struggle I'm out.

Marxism often focusses on dichotomies, even where none exist. For that reason it's probably not a great framework for dealing with issues of gender. Or anything else for that matter.

 

[butchersapron]

Does it? Such as?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Does it? Such as?

I seem to recall a marxist mentioning class to me once.

 

[butchersapron]

I seem to recall a marxist mentioning class to me once.

That's your example of a dichotomy that doesn't exist that Marxism puts forward?

 

[Sea Star]

Marxism often focusses on dichotomies, even where none exist. For that reason it's probably not a great framework for dealing with issues of gender. Or anything else for that matter.

It would be lovely if it wasn't just trans people having to deal with all this though. There aren't many of us. And most of us are too mired up in bullshit to put up any kind of coherent fight by ourselves.
I swear most cis people are blind to the attacks that we have to endure.

 

[seventh bullet]

liberals say its gone too far. Liberals give out names and adresses. Liberals hold the coats. Its never been starker than the latest iteration of whiggism. The death squads will come for you next but no, grass up commies anyway. The reason some of the anger and dismissiveness comes through is because we remember. Solidarity in lip service only, pragmatists

I thought you'd been reading that Vietnam book? Liberalism doesn't always hide in cowardice, it is the murder and mayhem to those outside of it, or in the way of its interests. Nothing is too far if the conditions demand it. Those that do the dirty work hold the coats.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I've been to a few left organised events in the last couple of years and while I see solidarity expressed for gay people, black people, women, etc . I've yet to see anyone express support for trans people. I see plenty on the left against us. Nothing supporting us. So I choose to disengage.
I can't say for sure whether TERF use of Marxism is valid or not. I know TERFs are wrong, but maybe their position follows logically from Marxism?
But it isn't just a TERF problem. I suspect a huge portion of the left is just scared to confront this or to give trans people support openly.
So until I see explicit support for the trans struggle I'm out.

I think the problem is that for a lot of people (including me) the struggles faced trans people are quite new.

In wider society there is a lot of prejudice and ignorance and the left reflects that.

There was plenty of racism and homophobia on the left in the early stages of those liberation movements but it was the left that became the biggest champions of equality.

The left is not a homogeneous lump that doesn't respect trans people.

 

[DotCommunist]

I thought you'd been reading that Vietnam book? Liberalism doesn't always hide in cowardice, it is the murder and mayhem to those outside of it, or in the way of its interests. Nothing is too far if the conditions demand it. Those that do the dirty work hold the coats.

bout halfway through. What I was trying to get at clumsily was that liberals are appaled at what must be done, and I think that they think it will be bloodless. In the context of n your own country iyswim? But I take your point, liberal ideology is murderous- I was googling to see if I could put the triangle slave trade on the tradition but, well. The multidnuos positionism around what 'liberal' means defeated me with wrong search results.


Its mainly horrific stats and equally grim 1st person testimony in that book btw. One of the most fucked up things for me was the way the kill count became a quota, that officers racking up bodies could be blessed from on high and be looking at promotion. Profoundly depressing. I will visit the second half when I have some calming herbs.

 

[Sea Star]

I think the problem is that for a lot of people (including me) the struggles faced trans people are quite new.

In wider society there is a lot of prejudice and ignorance and the left reflects that.

There was plenty of racism and homophobia on the left in the early stages of those liberation movements but it was the left that became the biggest champions of equality.

The left is not a homogeneous lump that doesn't respect trans people.

No. I understand that. And have been told that. But for me to get involved at this time is a leap of faith I'm not willing to make.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

No. I understand that. And have been told that. But for me to get involved at this time is a leap of faith I'm not willing to make.

That's fair enough

I guess what I'm saying is don't write the whole thing off...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

liberals say its gone too far. Liberals give out names and adresses. Liberals hold the coats. Its never been starker than the latest iteration of whiggism.

Except where they don't. That's the worst kind of lazy stereotyping. So-called 'liberals' are in Calais helping refugees. They're out on the street at night helping the homeless. This is bollocks, dc. Lazy bollocks.

 

[timeforanother]

Big 'L' liberals were radicals before Marx. The current lot should be ashamed of their ignorance of their roots. Of course this was for people. not of the people, society does go though stages (with Marx there). Barbarism sounds shit, socialism is a bit like brexit (in that we don't know what form it will take), but fuck it.

 

[DotCommunist]

Except where they don't. That's the worst kind of lazy stereotyping. So-called 'liberals' are in Calais helping refugees. They're out on the street at night helping the homeless. This is bollocks, dc. Lazy bollocks.

Terminology confusion again. We've seen liberals sell the people who voted them in down the river. Make a distinction between socially liberal and politically so. Because the former is a-ok with me but the latter is simply soaked in blood

 

[timeforanother]

Oddly as an 'advanced economy', its reliance on finance makes it less easy to say damn you to the bankers. We need to make more useful stuff rather than fluff. Doing that without messing up the planet more is hard.

 

[SpookyFrank]

So-called 'liberals' are in Calais helping refugees.

And cussing out the anarchists who have been there for years, mirroring the narrative of the French state which is used to justify tear gas attacks etc.

 

[maomao]

I've been to a few left organised events in the last couple of years and while I see solidarity expressed for gay people, black people, women, etc . I've yet to see anyone express support for trans people. I see plenty on the left against us. Nothing supporting us. So I choose to disengage.
I can't say for sure whether TERF use of Marxism is valid or not. I know TERFs are wrong, but maybe their position follows logically from Marxism?
But it isn't just a TERF problem. I suspect a huge portion of the left is just scared to confront this or to give trans people support openly.
So until I see explicit support for the trans struggle I'm out.

And all Muslims are terrorists. Cause I see a lot of terrorists claiming to be Muslims so must be true. Exactly the same logic.

 

[Red Cat]

After I found out that the Marxist position on trans women appears to be that we are harming women just by existing I have to, reluctantly, say I'm not a Marxist.

So develop your ideas - how can a Marxist theory of women's oppression incorporate transwomen? You're not saying anything apart from some people somewhere use marxism to say something you don't like. What are they saying exactly and how else could it be thought about?

 

[BigTom]

I've been to a few left organised events in the last couple of years and while I see solidarity expressed for gay people, black people, women, etc . I've yet to see anyone express support for trans people. I see plenty on the left against us. Nothing supporting us. So I choose to disengage.
I can't say for sure whether TERF use of Marxism is valid or not. I know TERFs are wrong, but maybe their position follows logically from Marxism?
But it isn't just a TERF problem. I suspect a huge portion of the left is just scared to confront this or to give trans people support openly.
So until I see explicit support for the trans struggle I'm out.

I don't particularly like any of these parties (especially the rapist protecting SWP) and I've no idea if they've got the right positions/ideas here but they are probably the 3 biggest marxist groups in the UK:

Socialist Party, June 2016 article: LGBT liberation and socialism (first generally about LGBT, second is a specific article about trans rights)
SWP Sept 2016 publication: The fight for transgender liberation | Socialist Review
AWL response to Morning Star's publication of transphobic articles: Challenge trans-exclusion through debate (fucking shite response but clearly against the Morning Star).

In no way am I saying there isn't a big problem with transphobia on the left but it's wrong to say that there is nothing supporting trans rights, nothing pushing things the right direction, and wrong to make the blanket statement you started with about Marxists.

Personally I don't remember anything in Marx's works that lead to or support transphobia. I don't remember anything about trans at all, but I also can't remember anything about women's liberation which he must have said something about given the time, his political writings were focused on class / economics and most of what he wrote was about economics and not directly political, again given the time he was writing I'd not be surprised if he said nothing about trans people. Historically despite the ever present mysogyny, racism etc marxists have been supportive of feminism, anti-racism and liberation struggles in general and it makes sense to me that they would generally also be on the right side of the trans liberation struggle (but that might be more to do with how I think than reflective of wider marxists, I've definitely known more marxists who are supportive of trans rights than (openly anyway) transphobic though but again confirmation bias, me not noticing the not completely blatant transphobic stuff because I'm not trans? idk).
Other people on here would be much better than me to talk about marxist-feminist traditions but as far as I can think these are based around the idea that the liberation of women is intrinsically tied up with the class struggle and the economic nature of capitalism - that the revolutionary struggle against capitalism is part and parcel of the struggle for liberation and vice-versa. I wouldn't see any reason why TERF would rise out of that, to me it would go the other way, with the same basic analysis being applied to trans liberation struggles. There are marxists who are transphobic but I don't think transphobia rises from the marxism and I'd be interested to see the arguments they present as marxist to understand why they think it would.

 

[two sheds]

Here too

Like the Greens and other social democrats he wants to have some shitty liberal-left mash up, burying his head in the sand that the politics of liberals are opposed to those of socialists, communists and anarchists.

Really? So being against sexism, homophobia and racism (let alone the continuing rape of the earth's resources) is some "shitty liberal-left mash up"?

I thought socialists, communists and anarchists were against such things, but clearly not in you world.

 

[seventh bullet]

Here we go again.

 

[two sheds]

Here we go again.

should i not respond to someone who's distorted what I've been saying into a couple of shitty insults?

Incidentally, what did Marx say about the environment, anyone?

 

[seventh bullet]

When they're attaching the electrodes to your testicles you'll be hanging there wondering why they're being so mean because you're so nice.

 

[emanymton]

I don't particularly like any of these parties (especially the rapist protecting SWP) and I've no idea if they've got the right positions/ideas here but they are probably the 3 biggest marxist groups in the UK:

Socialist Party, June 2016 article: LGBT liberation and socialism (first generally about LGBT, second is a specific article about trans rights)
SWP Sept 2016 publication: The fight for transgender liberation | Socialist Review
AWL response to Morning Star's publication of transphobic articles: Challenge trans-exclusion through debate (fucking shite response but clearly against the Morning Star).

In no way am I saying there isn't a big problem with transphobia on the left but it's wrong to say that there is nothing supporting trans rights, nothing pushing things the right direction, and wrong to make the blanket statement you started with about Marxists.

Personally I don't remember anything in Marx's works that lead to or support transphobia. I don't remember anything about trans at all, but I also can't remember anything about women's liberation which he must have said something about given the time, his political writings were focused on class / economics and most of what he wrote was about economics and not directly political, again given the time he was writing I'd not be surprised if he said nothing about trans people. Historically despite the ever present mysogyny, racism etc marxists have been supportive of feminism, anti-racism and liberation struggles in general and it makes sense to me that they would generally also be on the right side of the trans liberation struggle (but that might be more to do with how I think than reflective of wider marxists, I've definitely known more marxists who are supportive of trans rights than (openly anyway) transphobic though but again confirmation bias, me not noticing the not completely blatant transphobic stuff because I'm not trans? idk).
Other people on here would be much better than me to talk about marxist-feminist traditions but as far as I can think these are based around the idea that the liberation of women is intrinsically tied up with the class struggle and the economic nature of capitalism - that the revolutionary struggle against capitalism is part and parcel of the struggle for liberation and vice-versa. I wouldn't see any reason why TERF would rise out of that, to me it would go the other way, with the same basic analysis being applied to trans liberation struggles. There are marxists who are transphobic but I don't think transphobia rises from the marxism and I'd be interested to see the arguments they present as marxist to understand why they think it would.

Good post, and a nice little bit of research. I certainly agree that the majority of marxists are not transphobic, and that they recognise trans people are an oppressed group to be supported.

But most marxists also view gender as socialy constructed. This (not particularly great from what I can see) article in the SWP'S ISJ certainly takes this position while recognising that many trans people do not. Look for the section titled 'The social construction of gender'. I think that gender is a social construction but I'm pretty sure Stella disagrees and I imagine this would be the major problem she would have with even otherwise supportive Marxists. Anyway, I am dangerously close to putting words in her mouth so will shut up now. I just wanted to bring up what I think might be the root cause of disagreement. Stella can comment further if she wants, or not I know these discussions can make her uncomfortable.

 

[two sheds]

When they're attaching the electrodes to your testicles you'll be hanging there wondering why they're being so mean because you're so nice.

So speaks a self-hating social liberal. The more you hate yourself the more you project.

 

[seventh bullet]

So speaks a self-hating social liberal. The more you hate yourself the more you project.

Brilliant. I was an apologist for mass murder a short while ago. Oh hang on, liberals are very good at that, aren't they?

 

[two sheds]

Well insult people, you'll get insults back - no need to be so precious.

So how does being a social liberal - which is what I was talking of - lead to some shitty liberal-left mash up?