Are you a Marxist

[brogdale]

'politically liberal'?

Although I don't think that' has the stigma amongst the general population that is given it by urban and the left.

What's bothering you? I'm finding your responses a little confusing.

 

[lazythursday]

I did A level Sociology by accident - I had wanted to do Economics but the college didn't get enough takers - and when we got onto Marx it felt like the scales fell from my eyes and I could see how things worked. No other way of thinking about the modern world has ever come close. That doesn't mean though, that I think socialism is inevitable, or that most self-styled Marxist organisations aren't a tedious waste of space. Marxist analysis is just such a useful way of looking at our economy and politics - even for the ruling class, I'd have thought.

 

[Sea Star]

After I found out that the Marxist position on trans women appears to be that we are harming women just by existing I have to, reluctantly, say I'm not a Marxist.

 

[two sheds]

What's bothering you? I'm finding your responses a little confusing.

The hatred on urban against 'liberals' again. Sorry, it periodically annoys me when the definition in general usage is the one I've given.

It strikes me as having a bit of a cult edge to it and the repeated 'fucking liberals' likely to put people off who see themselves as social liberals and wouldn't necessarily know what political liberalism stands for.

I think it obscures thought - as in the political definition in the Oxford is: "favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate political and social reform."

I'd agree with the individual liberty bit of that, don't like the 'free trade' that we've got at the moment, and moderate reform isn't enough. But working from there you've at least got common ground to discuss with people why it's not enough, rather than just using liberal as an insult. I don't like contempt as a form of discussion (aimed at myself too when I've lost it in political arguments).

But that just shows me up as the fucking liberal I am

 

[Idris2002]

The hatred on urban against 'liberals' again. Sorry, it periodically annoys me when the definition in general usage is the one I've given.

It strikes me as having a bit of a cult edge to it and the repeated 'fucking liberals' likely to put people off who see themselves as social liberals and wouldn't necessarily know what political liberalism stands for.

I think it obscures thought - as in the political definition in the Oxford is: "favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate political and social reform."

I'd agree with the individual liberty bit of that, don't like the 'free trade' that we've got at the moment, and moderate reform isn't enough. But working from there you've at least got common ground to discuss with people why it's not enough, rather than just using liberal as an insult. I don't like contempt as a form of discussion (aimed at myself too when I've lost it in political arguments).

But that just shows me up as the fucking liberal I am

Pity about all the people you liberals killed.

When Moderates Made Things Worse

 

[brogdale]

The hatred on urban against 'liberals' again. Sorry, it periodically annoys me when the definition in general usage is the one I've given.

It strikes me as having a bit of a cult edge to it and the repeated 'fucking liberals' likely to put people off who see themselves as social liberals and wouldn't necessarily know what political liberalism stands for.

I think it obscures thought - as in the political definition in the Oxford is: "favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate political and social reform."

I'd agree with the individual liberty bit of that, don't like the 'free trade' that we've got at the moment, and moderate reform isn't enough. But working from there you've at least got common ground to discuss with people why it's not enough, rather than just using liberal as an insult. I don't like contempt as a form of discussion (aimed at myself too when I've lost it in political arguments).

But that just shows me up as the fucking liberal I am

I would have thought that a self-defining social liberal would appreciate the right of fellow posters to call you what they like (within the CoC of the forum).

 

[two sheds]

Pity about all the people you liberals killed.

When Moderates Made Things Worse

well true, but the people doing the actual killing weren't liberal? They were illiberal.

You could equally say that it was the left's fault because we weren't able to persuade the mainstream to intervene.

 

[two sheds]

I would have thought that a self-defining social liberal would appreciate the right of fellow posters to call you what they like (within the CoC of the forum).

yes that's true there are a lot of homophobes

 

[brogdale]

yes that's true there are a lot of homophobes

What?

 

[two sheds]

social liberals are against homophobia so a fair few of any attacks you'd imagine would be from homophobes

Like the ones we occasionally get in urban but they don't last long.

 

[brogdale]

social liberals are against homophobia so a fair few of any attacks you'd imagine would be from homophobes

Like the ones we occasionally get in urban but they don't last long.

I'd rather not rely on imaginary 'attacks', thanks. Either you're comfortable posting on Urban, or you're not. I'm taking it that your continued presence signifies the former...therefore...what's the issue?

 

[two sheds]

Yes of course I am, that doesn't mean that I can't disagree occasionally.

I want the same things you do in society, I'd see this as a disagreement in how to get there. My intention is to give a lighthearted prod at the consensus, which I think is fair enough in the face of what liberals are called on here.

 

[crossthebreeze]

Yeah Marx's writing is pretty spot on when it comes to social and economic analysis, and I've got a fair fe books by him around the house, but I'm not a Marxist.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

its not even commonly understood between americans and brits. Socially is the contextual key here. Theres a good thread on the use of liberal as an insult tbf, lots of definings and discussion with minimal rudeness. Well, in context for an urban thread anyway

There's a decent definition in there irrc from dannylr, describing a liberal as someone who addresses political problems without acknowledging various structural issues that have created the situation being discussed. It's something Urban can be very good at unpicking. However, that is something of a self-coinage, and something rather particular to here. And the word is very often thrown around simply to describe someone who is not a revolutionary.

I've never once seen someone being called a 'fucking liberal (in the Urban dlr meaning)' and that serving to advance the discussion in hand. It's generally used in the opposite way - to shut down discussion, and to define a tribe to which said 'fucking liberal' does not belong.

 

[two sheds]

It can only put off new people who are socially liberal and that's what they mean by 'liberal' to be told they are personally responsible for all the major slaughtering in world history.

Which is a shame because they then don't get exposed to urban's political analysis which is better than I've seen anywhere else and is a large part of why i come here.

 

[danny la rouge]

There's a decent definition in there irrc from dannylr [...]However, that is something of a self-coinage, and something rather particular to here.

Much as I'd like to take credit, it really isn't a self-coinage: it's a widespread and longstanding understanding. See for example Raymond Williams' Keywords, first published in the 70s.

 

[NoXion]

After I found out that the Marxist position on trans women appears to be that we are harming women just by existing I have to, reluctantly, say I'm not a Marxist.

You appear to be confusing Marxists with TERFs.

 

[Pickman's model]

Definitely a marxist of the armchair variety.

There is a copy of the Manifesto of the Communist Party in our bathroom, next to the toilet. " A spectre is haunting the earth etc.." Loads of marx's tomes on dusty shelves.

A spectre is haunting Europe, I think you'll find

 

[Fozzie Bear]

After I found out that the Marxist position on trans women appears to be that we are harming women just by existing I have to, reluctantly, say I'm not a Marxist.

Be interested to know where Marx said that

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Much as I'd like to take credit, it really isn't a self-coinage: it's a widespread and longstanding understanding. See for example Raymond Williams' Keywords, first published in the 70s.

You expressed it very well though.

I'd still say, good definition that it is (and more importantly a useful concept) that it's not one that is widely understood.

 

[redcogs]

Gimme a break Pickfords model, i have only just recovered from the last of your rebukes, in which, on some long dead discussion i had erroneously described the seas off Britain's coast as "oceans"..

i cannot be unique on Urban to be geographically challenged and prone to hyper exaggeration. Can i?

Sorry, in response to post #108

 

[likesfish]

After I found out that the Marxist position on trans women appears to be that we are harming women just by existing I have to, reluctantly, say I'm not a Marxist.

Not sure a 19th century writer would have much to say to trans people at.

Isnt the main problem with marxism most of the so called marxist regimes have been imposed on pre industrial societys? Which is a bit like trying to install ios 10 on an old imac really isnt going to work.

 

[Sea Star]

Be interested to know where Marx said that

I don't think I said Marx held that position. Marxists seem to hold that position. Presumably extrapolating from principles that Marx originally set out. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Sea Star]

You appear to be confusing Marxists with TERFs.

Not at all. TERFs usually quote Marxist ideas at me and the fecking morning star is hideously pro TERF. As is Germaine Greer who was also a Marxist in her day.

I believe it's because women are considered to be a class oppressed by the class of men. Trans women in Marxist analysis are men who feel guilty about being oppressors or some such bullshit. Any way it's put me right off trying to engage with the left.

 

[NoXion]

But at all. TERFs usually quite Marxist ideas at me and the fecking morning star is hideously pro TERF. Add is Germaine Greer who was also a Marxist in her day.

Why do you seem to think that TERFs' arguments have any legitimacy with regards to Marxism? It's certainly not obvious to me how TERF arguments are valid.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I don't think I said Marx held that position. Marxists seem to hold that position. Presumably extrapolating from principles that Marx originally set out. Don't shoot the messenger.

I'm not shooting anyone I just found it surprising, having read a fair bit of Marx recently.

If TERFs are using Marx to justify their Terfness they are massively overreaching imo.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not shooting anyone I just found it surprising, having read a fair bit of Marx recently.

If TERFs are using Marx to justify their Terfness they are massively overreaching imo.

 

[Sea Star]

Why do you seem to think that TERFs' arguments have any legitimacy with regards to Marxism? It's certainly not obvious to me how TERF arguments are valid.

I find it hard to engage when I see these arguments being used by men and women alike on the left. It's the morning star editorial line FFS!! I've tried to engage on this in the past but my concerns just get dismissed.

 

[Sea Star]

Why do you seem to think that TERFs' arguments have any legitimacy with regards to Marxism? It's certainly not obvious to me how TERF arguments are valid.

I don't give them legitimacy. I just know they are so widely accepted on the left that I've had to withdraw from politics.

 

[NoXion]

I don't give them legitimacy. I just know they are so widely accepted on the left that I've had to withdraw from politics.

You said that you don't consider yourself a Marxist, on the basis that people prop up TERF arguments using Marxism. I'm not familiar with these arguments, so I have no idea if those arguments are actually based on Marxism or whether they're just self-serving bullshit employed by the TERFs to give their arguments a veneer of political legitimacy. If the latter, then it strikes me that the fundamental problem is with TERFs, not Marxism.

It may be the the Morning Star's editorial line, but since when did they represent the totality of Marxist thought?