Are we creeping towards being a fascist state?

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh, they're moving in that direction, sure. But you shouldn't overstate the case.

 

[frogwoman]

(The current one make it very clear what direction it is steering: "you want education but can't afford it / you were raped but can't afford a decent lawyer / you need adequate healthcare but can't afford any. etc. not interested".)

That's capitalism though, that's not fascism.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Oh, they're moving in that direction, sure. But you shouldn't overstate the case.

BA point was about economic intervention. Social democracy was still interested in developing industry and production.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

That's capitalism though

Yes, it is.

 

[frogwoman]

BA point was about economic intervention. Social democracy was still interested in developing industry and production.

Social democracy is sort of dying though (imo). that doesn't mean that what we had before was fascist.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Social democracy is sort of dying though (imo). that doesn't mean that what we had before was fascist.

I don't agree with the thread title. We might be heading to some other form of barbarism IMO.

 

[gavman]

So we're halfway to the US system and creeping towards fascism? Which must make the US at least fascist surely?

well duh

 

[cantsin]

More democratic in fact. The idiocy is to be implemented by us.

lol, you are genuinely quite good...

 

[The39thStep]

We're not creeping towards a fascist state at all. We do seem to have a government that wants to make us more like the US, though. There will be precious little left of the old social democracy achievements once this govt's done.

The election of Boris was seen by some on here as the coming of the 4th Reich

 

[redsquirrel]

I have lived in countries with really authoritarian governments, dictatorships and under military rule and from my experience Britain is a very liberal government. ...... <snip>

None of your post addresses Frogwoman's claim. That Britain is a liberal society that doesn't mean that it hasn't become more (or less) authoritarian over the last 30 years.

 

[jiggajagga]

I also have what is called a CPF (a personal tax number), this can be used by government departments to track my spending and if I don't pay my bills this number can be suspended by the government making it impossible to live any kind of normal life, without a "live" CPF you have no access to health care, education, employment, you can't get a telephone, electricity, rent or buy property, own or drive a car, you can't even buy electrical goods.

Did not our government a few weeks ago moot the idea of taking away a persons right to social housing as a kind of punishment for stepping out of line after the riots?
As the OP I asked IF we were creeping towards a fascist state not racing towards one!
I just feel that at 60 yrs of age I am seeing and hearing things that Maggie herself would not have dared to even try in her time. A creep starts with a single step just as a 1000 mile march does.

Thanks for some fascinating replies. I have learned much from many.
Cheers.

 

[1%er]

None of your post addresses Frogwoman's claim. That Britain is a liberal society that doesn't mean that it hasn't become more (or less) authoritarian over the last 30 years.

I have agreed that "Britain is a liberal society". I'm not even sure there is any disagreement between Frogwoman and I. I left the UK over 30 years ago and the actions of the British Government at the time resulted in many of it citizens being shot by their Government and internment was in place.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Frogwoman, can you give me some examples. I'd also say take a look at Frogwoman's response to my post 105, she likes it, that doesn't indicate to me we are in disagreement.

Did not our government a few weeks ago moot the idea of taking away a persons right to social housing as a kind of punishment for stepping out of line after the riots?

Is this new? Has this only just been added to people tenancy agreements? How many people have been evicted? I've heard Council leaders on the radio saying this isn't new? The leader of Tower Hamlets said on the radio only yesterday, "the council has used these powers many times over the years". It is my understanding from what they said that you do not have to be convicted of any offense, just charged. This I believe is local government not national government.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think the above is explained because Britain is a country in decline.

I have lived in countries with really authoritarian governments, dictatorships and under military rule and from my experience Britain is a very liberal government.

In comparison to a dictatorship or military government, then of course it is.

The point being made here isn't about a state of affairs that's been reached, it's about a state of affairs that can be argued to be approaching, given the various post-11th September/post-7th July legislation, much of which is still in force, plus the various provisions of acts such as RIPA. Add to this the state's ever-increasing willingness to "police" dissent harshly, and to resile unilaterally from the obligations between citizens and state, then I could understand anyone with a reasonable historical political perspective of the UK stretching over the last 20 years forming an opinion that the UK is "creeping toward authoritarianism".

 

[ViolentPanda]

The contemporary state is more reactionary, along with the ruling class political culture (utterly rancid).

Ruling class political culture is always reactionary, due to it's nature. If you're ruling class then, even if yesterday you were part of the revolutionary vanguard, your taking and use of power renders you in reaction because power will act on you and force you to change perspective.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Isn't it more that the state has more resources and the technology to interfere and monitor to a greater extent? I realise there's some sort of crossover between the material capacity and the scale of the state with what it attempts to do, but not too convinced that the authoritarian tendencies have changed that greatly - you look at times when the gloves have come off over the past century, as in the north of Ireland, and see both authoritarianism and what liberal limits still hold.

I agree, but I'd also remark that where the gloves have come off, that's historically been localised in the UK. What we've seen in the last 20 years or so (and especially in the last 10) is the willingness of the state to allot to itself powers in excess of what any reasoned definition of need might constitute, on the basis of possibility, and then use those powers, primarily designed (or at least that we're led to believe) to combat external threats, used to tighten the vice on internal dissent.

 

[ViolentPanda]

well duh

Except that even using the most liberal definition of fascism available, the US doesn't conform to type.

I understand that people see the bipartisan system as two sides of the same coin, and from a policy perspective they are, but the fact that they exist within a system where opposition to the bipartisan system is not only possible, but constitutionally reinforced, renders any accusations of fascism as facile as those of Rik in "The Young Ones".
Show me a USofA where the constitution is being revoked, and I'll agree they're on the way to fascism. Until then, they are what they are - a state where those in power are prepared to use the extremes of force to execute policy, and who have a (more or less) "democratic" mandate to do so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The election of Boris was seen by some on here as the coming of the 4th Reich

Really? Care to post some links?

 

[JimW]

<snip>
What we've seen in the last 20 years or so (and especially in the last 10) is the willingness of the state to allot to itself powers in excess of what any reasoned definition of need might constitute, on the basis of possibility, and then use those powers, primarily designed (or at least that we're led to believe) to combat external threats, used to tighten the vice on internal dissent.

This is getting to the nub of it - tend to agree that there's something new over the last decades, but thinking on, is it just the form that's changing rather than the substance? Something like the new managerialism framing these powers then abusing them, whereas maybe in the past they'd just have gone straight to the abuse. Or if similar wasn't seen, say, during the time round WWI with the syndicalist revolt, cat-and-mouse with the suffragettes etc? Not sure, genuine question.
And the other side of the coin recently is things like the Freedom of Information Acts, signing up to EU rights charters and the like, which you tend to think are cynical but do seem to place some ostensible limits on power.

 

[1%er]

In comparison to a dictatorship or military government, then of course it is.

The point being made here isn't about a state of affairs that's been reached, it's about a state of affairs that can be argued to be approaching, given the various post-11th September/post-7th July legislation, much of which is still in force, plus the various provisions of acts such as RIPA. Add to this the state's ever-increasing willingness to "police" dissent harshly, and to resile unilaterally from the obligations between citizens and state, then I could understand anyone with a reasonable historical political perspective of the UK stretching over the last 20 years forming an opinion that the UK is "creeping toward authoritarianism".

I understand it isn't about now it is about what may/could happen over time, I just think people over the last 100 years could make the same claim.

All the things I listed in post 105 are happening today under a liberal democracy.

 

[Gromit]

There is a great german film called The Wave that demonstrates how easy it is to generate a fascism.

Was watching it last night. Based on the book the Third Wave which demonstrate how three generations after WWII a school master was through an experiment turn his class into fascists in just a week.

 

[redsquirrel]

Another thing to consider is the change in the industrial relation laws, they've certainly become more authoritarian over the last few decades.

Secondary action made illegal in 1980
Balloting made compulsory
Closed shop system banned

 

[likesfish]

that would mean making the trains run on time can't see that happening
could you see this or the other shower of shite making triumph of the will?.
some horrible shitty fake winner US style take all capitalist stylee system without any of the advantages of that system

 

[treelover]

'Was watching it last night. Based on the book the Third Wave which demonstrate how three generations after WWII a school master was through an experiment turn his class into fascists in just a week.'

its fiction though, isn't it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is getting to the nub of it - tend to agree that there's something new over the last decades, but thinking on, is it just the form that's changing rather than the substance?

I'd say that both the form and the substance has changed, insofar as impingement has progressed into areas it hasn't touched before. One of the revisions of the PoTA in the '90s, for example, rendered illegal the wearing of clothing items deemed to be part of a paramilitary uniform, and recently we've seen a descendant of this used to compel the removal of face-coverings at protests. The form is more subtle, more systemised and bureaucratised, too.

Something like the new managerialism framing these powers then abusing them, whereas maybe in the past they'd just have gone straight to the abuse.

Yes, absolutely.

Or if similar wasn't seen, say, during the time round WWI with the syndicalist revolt, cat-and-mouse with the suffragettes etc? Not sure, genuine question.

The powers used then, as far as I can recall (I'd have to re-read some stuff to confirm), were a mixture of emergency and wartime powers, or legislation that evolved from such, and which would be harder (because of being blunter) to get through parliament nowadays without a liberal hue-and-cry.

And the other side of the coin recently is things like the Freedom of Information Acts, signing up to EU rights charters and the like, which you tend to think are cynical but do seem to place some ostensible limits on power.

The FoIA is severely circumscribed, enough so that it's pretty much only the most dogged that can use it for any socially-beneficial purpose, and the human rights act we legislated, the one that incorporated the EU charter? Didn't that nice Mr. Blair resile from a section of the act within a couple of years of it being legislated?

Our rights are transient. Their rights, not so much.

 

[frogwoman]

I understand it isn't about now it is about what may/could happen over time, I just think people over the last 100 years could make the same claim.

All the things I listed in post 105 are happening today under a liberal democracy.

What I'm saying isn't that the UK is becoming fascist - I'm saying it's becoming - gradually - more like the country you live in (which is also not fascist). And over the next period this process will - imo - accelerate, giving the impression among the more gullilble of "fascism" being around the corner but simply what's happening is that imo liberal democracies like the uk are getting more into line with the rest of the world rather than the goose steps and brown shirts making an appearance

many people would love their country to have the same freedoms as brazil - the right to protest - the right to strike etc etc etc, the same as many people would like their countries to be as free and democratic as say russia (which is pretty free and democratic compared to what it was)

im not arguing this is good - i'd be the first to say it wasn't - but hysteria does not pay imo

If we lived in a fascist state, believe me - we'd know

 

[ViolentPanda]

I understand it isn't about now it is about what may/could happen over time, I just think people over the last 100 years could make the same claim.

Well sure, but in the UK in the post-war era, specifically in the last 30 years, the volume of legislation eroding our so-called "democratic rights" has been greater than at any time previously. The state's withdrawal from it's obligations to its' citizens has been horrendously fast.

All the things I listed in post 105 are happening today under a liberal democracy.

There are liberal democracies and liberal democracies, though. Unless you closely define what your label "liberal democracy" means, then you could be as well comparing London and Brighton as examples of "cosmopolitan cities".

 

[frogwoman]

classical fascism at this point is unlikely to make a reappearance in the west - because economically, despite the talk of this being the worst depression since the 30s - things simply arent bad enough yet

it will take - at least - another 10 years or 20 years imo before anything resembling classical fascism (*not* a more authoritarian government or anything like that - as ive explained and others have, this ISNT FASCISM) becomes a significant force on the british political stage (and i dont even mean getting a few more MPs - the green party have a few MPs ffs) if that ever becomes a reality at all, which it may never
im not talking about some countries in eastern europe btw, where imo it IS a possibility

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

European nationalism with some nasty throwbacks is possible. Classical Fascism was of a specific time.

 

[Pickman's model]

European nationalism with some nasty throwbacks is possible. Classical Fascism was of a specific time.

i don't think there's much in the way of 'european nationalism': too many peoples in europe (french, dutch, portuguese, croats) for there to imo be a europe-wide nationalism of any real popular strength.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

nationalisms sorry . . . what with the way europe is going