Are we creeping towards being a fascist state?

[butchersapron]

You don't really need a ruling party, when all the parties agree with each other about virtually everything, though.

You do for a fascist state- it's pretty essential in fact.

 

[LLETSA]

it's a fair summary of your post which stated the bleeding obvious.

It was actually a reply to VP, whose post, although probably not intentionally, implied that it's only during the last thirty years that working class solidarity has been eroded.

I don't see why you should object to stating the obvious when 90% of your ten million posts are empty nitpicking crap, or else designed to divert the subject and reduce a thread to nonsense.

 

[Pickman's model]

It was actually a reply to VP, whose post, although probably not intentionally, implied that it's only during the last thirty years that working class solidarity has been eroded.

I don't see why you should object to stating the obvious when 90% of your ten million posts are empty nitpicking crap, or else designed to divert the subject and make a nonsense out of a thread.

your post, whoever it was a reply to, did not illuminate or add to the discussion about 'are we creeping towards a fascist state'.

 

[LLETSA]

your post, whoever it was a reply to, did not illuminate or add to the discussion about 'are we creeping towards a fascist state'.

Maybe not, but the subject had already strayed into other, although related, areas.

Anyway, do you have to do your usual meaningless, diversionary thing on this thread as well?

 

[Pickman's model]

i'd have thought it's hard to head for a fascist state with a coalition government: but the machinery for an authoritarian state is already firmly in place.

 

[_angel_]

You do for a fascist state- it's pretty essential in fact.

Yes. I'd be surprised if that happened again, at least in this country. The thing is, we don't actually need it to be classic fascism.

 

[trevhagl]

I think socially this Govt are one of the worst we've ever had but in terms of fascism, New Labour took the biscuit, if they won again we would all be forced to carry ID cards, scary

 

[butchersapron]

Yes. I'd be surprised if that happened again, at least in this country. The thing is, we don't actually need it to be classic fascism.

No we don't. But a single ruling Party is still essential. It might be a coalition of competing groups (or even parties) but there has to be a single ruling Party that they're all within - i.e a sole holder of power - military, economic, political and so on. Almost every country has seen a convergence of policies around a core set of neo-liberal assumptions over the last 40 years - that convergence alone doesn't make them fascist or those societies fascist.

 

[butchersapron]

I think socially this Govt are one of the worst we've ever had but in terms of fascism, New Labour took the biscuit, if they won again we would all be forced to carry ID cards, scary

Adventure playground shut today then trev?

 

[krtek a houby]

I think socially this Govt are one of the worst we've ever had but in terms of fascism, New Labour took the biscuit, if they won again we would all be forced to carry ID cards, scary

There's little, if any difference between both parties. This is what the majority has settled for. Working class or other.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

There's little, if any difference between both parties. This is what the majority has settled for. Working class or other.

The Labour government put far more authoritarian policies in place. I don't suppose the current lot will get rid of them, though.

 

[Random]

I think socially this Govt are one of the worst we've ever had but in terms of fascism, New Labour took the biscuit, if they won again we would all be forced to carry ID cards, scary

Sweden has ID cards, and I feel freer here than in the UK.

 

[butchersapron]

Sleepwalking into brownshirtery.

 

[_angel_]

The Labour government put far more authoritarian policies in place. I don't suppose the current lot will get rid of them, though.

And this government isn't going to do the exact same thing? Are doing, in fact.

 

[gavman]

No we're not creeping towards a fascist state. A fascist state involves a whole range of things that we are a million miles from (it means the total dissoluution of all parties seen as harmful to the national community, the legal and physical smashing of unions, the stopping off all media except govt regulated outlets, the re-organisation of the education system to support the ideology of the leading party, the re-organsiation of the military and so on) It doesn't just mean bad things. Bad things come with the state, it's normal - it's part of the deal. Calm down.

i disagree.
we have the appearance that all these individual institutions exist, but in reality they have all been subjugated.
you don't need to shut down media when they are just parroting the govt line, or worse, cheerleaders for unrestrained capital.
our political parties have long ceased to offer any alternative other than a change in personality. i thought i was voting to bring the banks under control at the last election, what i actually did was punish everyone but the bankers.
so we have no democracy

the unions are discredited and incompetent, and as much part of the problem when they can elect the leader of the labour party in defiance of the majority of it's members, supporter and voters. at a time when we desperately need a labour government, the unions are determined to keep the party (almost) as unelectable as they did with gb. if the tories have a ruthless instinct for government, the unions have an equal instinct for opposition. they had a potential leader (dm) who would've wiped the floor with cameron, instead they've gone for a immature, charisma-less policy wonk who will never be elected to lead this country

the education system is designed to turn out employees, not citizens. it fails comprehensively to educate our young people to cope with adult life, or to be able to make informed political decisions, and 99.9% of the population derive their knowledge of politics from a blatantly biased press that provokes and manipulates their basest desires and fears

we're halfway to the american system, where a revolution does no good whatsoever because it's money that runs the show now, and you can't have a revolution against big business any more than you can revolt against the flu

 

[butchersapron]

So we're halfway to the US system and creeping towards fascism? Which must make the US at least fascist surely?

The things you're moaning about, they're normal - that's how they've always worked, that's their function in democratic capitalist countries, there has been no real change in the way that they work. What's changed is your personal despair.

 

[_angel_]

So we're halfway to the US system and creeping towards fascism? Which must make the US at least fascist surely?

The things you're moaning about, they're normal - that's how they've always worked, that's their function in democratic capitalist countries, there has been no real change in the way that they work. What's changed is your personal despair.

The attempt to ban public employees from any form of collective action seemed pretty fascist.

 

[butchersapron]

The attempt to ban public employees from any form of collective action seemed pretty fascist.

What attempt? Fascism wants public employees to act collectively btw- just for the national state.

 

[treelover]

'I remember my mother, as a factory shop steward in the 1970s and '80s, complaining about how difficult it was to get people to take action in their own interests. Most people were already more interested in soaps and football. '

Nothing new really, plenty of comrades in the 30's especially in the latter part complained ''that the masses were more interested in the Pools than events in Spain''

 

[frogwoman]

i think there's certainly an attempt to make the country more authoritarian and an increase of the use of overtly undemocratic methods, but that doesn't mean fascism. The majority of the world's countries aren't "liberal democracies" like ours but they're not fascist ffs.

 

[frogwoman]

The country is certainly becoming less democratic and more overtly authoritarian, but fascism is something very different. If you say that we are moving into fascism you have to start saying that the rest of the world's countries are already fascist, and imo we're just becoming like the (more authoritarian) rest of the world

 

[DotCommunist]

You don't creep towards fascism you goose step into it

 

[1%er]

i think there's certainly an attempt to make the country more authoritarian and an increase of the use of overtly undemocratic methods, but that doesn't mean fascism. The majority of the world's countries aren't "liberal democracies" like ours but they're not fascist ffs.

Can you give me a couple of examples of how it is becoming more authoritarian and what "undemocratic methods" are being used?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think Britain has certainly become more authoritarian in the last 20 years. You can be locked up for mouthing off relatively harmless nonsense on the internet. We are filmed wherever we go in public. The state now dictates who we can and cannot choose to have teach or look after our kids. The coppers have always carried out covert operations, but they are now explicit and brazen about the fact that they infiltrate action groups. Then there are all the various security measures in place since Britain went to war in Asia. And of course 28 day detention without charge and control orders, both of which, the latter particularly, are affronts to basic rights.

As someone said after the riots, could you imagine Reclaim the streets happening now?

 

[frogwoman]

Can you give me a couple of examples of how it is becoming more authoritarian and what "undemocratic methods" are being used?

Well the war on terror stuff for one, the proposals being introduced into the public discourse of shutting off the internet, etc whenever there is social discontent. although the state's always done bad stuff, it's slowly but surely entering a period imo where the "bad stuff" is going to increasingly become the norm

none of this, however, is remotely "fascist"

 

[love detective]

You don't creep towards fascism you goose step into it

maybe many generations ago - fascism is a lot more pliable and has a lot more darwinian capacity to survive and re-calibrate/modernise than some would credit it with however - it can adapt to, and in turn be shaped by, the political space that becomes available to it

The quote below from Beating The Fascists sums up it's current manifestation rather well:-

So the real potency of the fascist renaissance across Europe is far better judged by how easily its appearance on a national stage can first panic, and then stampede, an erstwhile political centre to the right.It is also worth noting that a fascist organisation does not have to be large to do this. Gone is the need for a private army, as ‘strength on the street’ is no longer obligatory. Unlike its 1930s forbears, what characterises fascism today is not the ‘putsch’ but what anti-fascists have referred to as ‘the drift’.

 

[1%er]

Well the war on terror stuff for one, the proposals being introduced into the public discourse of shutting off the internet, etc whenever there is social discontent. although the state's always done bad stuff, it's slowly but surely entering a period imo where the "bad stuff" is going to increasingly become the norm

none of this, however, is remotely "fascist"

I agree with you that the UK isn't creeping towards fascism.
I'm just not convinced that it has become more authoritarian.
Clearly the Internet and currant war on terrorism are new, but are the actions taken by the state today on these issues any different to the actions of previous governments on similar issues?

From what I read and hear I'm not sure.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The basis for the last thirty years was laid throughout the post-war period, however. Paradoxically, it was the rise in working class living standards, fought for by the labour movement, that ultimately undermined it and the working class solidarity on which it relied. I remember my mother, as a factory shop steward in the 1970s and '80s, complaining about how difficult it was to get people to take action in their own interests. Most people were already more interested in soaps and football. The legendary militancy of the era, although widespread, was the preserve of a large vociferous minority. By the time of the miners' strike, when I was a factory worker myself, the working class was already on its knees politically, and the militant minority smaller. Again, myths abound about the era. Collecting for the miners in the workplace and at street collections etc, there was plenty of support, but also widespread hostility, as the polls of the time indicated.

I remember the hostility very well, it seemed worse in the "service" unions (USDAW had a bad attitude all round IME), and in the "posher" neighbourhoods, but that's just what I personally experienced.

A mass media-saturated society can only undermine working class solidarity (or any other form of solidarity), often replacing it with some Benetton-like abstract 'caring' bullshit.

Well, that's the not so great thing about a mass media, isn't it? You have the ability to smother people with a particular representation strongly enough that multilateral discourse gets replaced by that "abstract shit".

 

[frogwoman]

I agree with you that the UK isn't creeping towards fascism.
I'm just not convinced that it has become more authoritarian.
Clearly the Internet and currant war on terrorism are new, but are the actions taken by the state today on these issues any different to the actions of previous governments on similar issues?

From what I read and hear I'm not sure.

i wouldn't say it's not the same - clearly elements of it are (with e.g. the police squads during the miners' strike and so on). butchers etc are absolutely correct when they say that the state has always done bad stuff. however, what i would say is that over the last 30 years living standards have gradually been eroded, and in the coming years, this erosion won't be so "gradual" any more, leading to such actions, rather than being the exception during periods of unrest, will become the norm as there is more open hostility and more open class (and other) social conflict, more industrial action, more strikes, more riots (possibly) etc etc - and society will become more "unstable", necessitating this type of tougher policing to become the norm more and more often.

none of this, however, is necessarily anything like fascism

 

[ViolentPanda]

I agree about your bread and circuses point, but am a bit puzzled about the other stuff you say. Who is made to feel abnormal about altruism and community mindedness?

We all are, unless our altruism and community-mindedness conforms to the template. When I tell people that I help people with disabilities (including an Urbanite or two) fill out forms and chase bureaucrats in order to access services and benefits to which they're entitled (and I do this free and in my own time, not for money or as a "job"), I almost always get asked "why, what do you get out of it?".
Obviously, what I get out of it is satisfaction, knowing that someone who might otherwise (as in the case of the chair-bound bloke I filled out an Attendance Allowance application for, who although literate, couldn't get his head around the repetitive questioning on the form) just chuck a claim form away in despair, get's what they're entitled to. Some people, though, they can't see beyond the idea that there must be a reason beyond altruism for doing something.
It used to be that people were trusted to have common sense in deciding whether their neighbours and other members of their community were trustworthy, yet we've had decades now of bombardment from the media about how you really can't trust anyone nowadays, crime is on the rise and you've got to stay alert, be suspicious. Be vigilant.

So, yeah, people displaying altruism and community-mindedness are made to feel that they're not behaving in a normative manner.

Who is made to feel guilty and ashamed for doing right, or belonging to a union or political party? And who is making them feel guilty and abnormal?

Have you ever canvassed for a political party, or been a trade union rep canvassing for new members? In both cases, society has been indoctrinated to think that people who are interested in politics, are members of political parties or unions are indulging in a abnormal behaviour. Have you seen the way union and political party members are characterised by the media?