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Are we creeping towards being a fascist state?

Well, that's not really a fact, that's your opinion. I'd say that even if "most" people" seem not to mind, many of them do. The problem lies in the fact that many of the traditional solidaristic mechanisms where groups of people with the same concerns could have made their disquiet known, no longer exist, and those that do don't work too well.

They were forced to withdraw them within hours of putting them up, and I believe Liberty has reported the police to the DP commissioner.

The Met still have theirs up:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/sets/72157627514443760/

As to whether lots of people do mind, I suppose I meant it as a shorthand for 'mind enough to make a fuss and do something about it' - which hasn't happened yet, outside the usual suspects. Not sure on your attibution of causality in relation to the lack of people expressing themselves. I mean, I don't think it is simply a symptom of lack of solidarity mechanisms.
 
The Met still have theirs up:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/sets/72157627514443760/

As to whether lots of people do mind, I suppose I meant it as a shorthand for 'mind enough to make a fuss and do something about it' - which hasn't happened yet, outside the usual suspects. Not sure on your attibution of causality in relation to the lack of people expressing themselves. I mean, I don't think it is simply a symptom of lack of solidarity mechanisms.
So not what you said then, which is an indication of what you think about most people and a reason for them not going near you. Why are you constantly shocked when you run people down that they don't want to go near you? Who are you anyway?
 
The Met still have theirs up:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/sets/72157627514443760/

As to whether lots of people do mind, I suppose I meant it as a shorthand for 'mind enough to make a fuss and do something about it' - which hasn't happened yet, outside the usual suspects. Not sure on your attibution of causality in relation to the lack of people expressing themselves. I mean, I don't think it is simply a symptom of lack of solidarity mechanisms.

If you've grown up in a state where they've been deliberately eroded, and you're under, say, 35, you won't be that well acquainted with solidarity mechanisms, indeed your education may have taught you that individualism is the only way to go.
Of course, some people won't be arsed, even when Beelzebub is nibbling on their arse-cheeks, but I can't really see indifference as a primary factor, or apathy for that matter.
 
Oh I kind of agree that using the word fascism isn't as useful as sticking to a more factual description of what is going on right now. The fact that things are going in a more authoritarian direction is interesting though - interesting for the fact that most people don't seem to mind, so you wonder how far they can push it....
I don't really think we are - the police struggled to get a grip on the riots for example and the establishment is having less and less control over the media.

The state is just enforcing existing laws as regards the riot aftermath, to send a message.
 
Whatever we can.
The problem for "us", i.e. "the people" is that because we have little recourse to making ourselves heard, then often what we do is invisible, unseen and unheard, or just plain ignored. It's dissapointing, because there are so many little ways that don't get considered, stuff that isn't illegal, but would be irritating, stuff like mass phone-ins to switchboards of the Houses of Parliament, Portcullis House and Whitehall departments at specific times, mass mail-ins from constituents to MPs. "Spontaneous" gatherings outside of constituency surgeries. Disruption with a message - "sod your neo-liberalism. You represent us. Do so or reap the consequences".

Problem being that we're currently at a stage were more people care about staying under the radar than care about resisting. I suspect that's going to start changing around the time this quarter's financial results are published and the next wave of public sector staffing cuts are activated.

Would you be of the opinion that most people care more about what's happening in soapland or the premiership than resistance? Don't eat me on this, now. Serious question.
 
Would you be of the opinion that most people care more about what's happening in soapland or the premiership than resistance? Don't eat me on this, now. Serious question.

I think we've spent the last 30 or so years being taught that caring more about yourself or about Dot Cotton than about your class or your community is normal, and that things like altruism, community-mindedness and the like are abnormal, except when they conform to some predetermined and narrowly-defined government idea like "Neighbourhood Watch". I think we've been indoctrinated to feel guilty, even ashamed, of "doing right" by other people, just like we've been made to feel that belonging to a union or to a political party is aberrent behaviour.
Bread and circuses (or chips and soaps and footie, if you want to modernise that) is always going to keep a certain amount of people compliant, but remember that even in the early days of Rome, it didn't always work well enough to stop people rebelling.
 
Not sure about 'fascism' in fact not at all, but he is bang on about 'these people' as if they are seperate, the other, in relation to 'claimants, disabled people, chavs, the underclass', I have heard it quite often from students in the street online, etc..
 
There is a painting by Klee called Angelus Novus. An angel is depicted there who looks as though he were about to distance himself from something which he is staring at. His eyes are opened wide, his mouth stands open and his wings are outstretched. The Angel of History must look just so. His face is turned towards the past. Where we see the appearance of a chain of events, he sees one single catastrophe, which unceasingly piles rubble on top of rubble and hurls it before his feet. He would like to pause for a moment so fair, to awaken the dead and to piece together what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing from Paradise, it has caught itself up in his wings and is so strong that the Angel can no longer close them. The storm drives him irresistibly into the future, to which his back is turned, while the rubble-heap before him grows sky-high. That which we call progress, is this storm.
 
Would you be of the opinion that most people care more about what's happening in soapland or the premiership than resistance? Don't eat me on this, now. Serious question.

reminded me of a piece in the Guardian ( my gardener reads it)

But the past is all around at the Casa, a city centre bar and bistro bought by ex-dockers from the profits of Ken Loach's film Dockers, depicting their bitter two-and-a-half year strike in the 1990s. Black and white photograph of Liverpool's docks adorn its walls, trade unions use its function rooms, students and city workers drink side-by-side, and welfare and benefits advice is dispensed upstairs.
In the gents toilet someone has scrawled: "Opium of the people: pint of lager and Sky Sports."
"I haven't rubbed it out because it's that good," said director Tony Nelson, 53, a docker since the age of 15, and shop steward who was on the picket line throughout the strike.
 
I think we've spent the last 30 or so years being taught that caring more about yourself or about Dot Cotton than about your class or your community is normal, and that things like altruism, community-mindedness and the like are abnormal, except when they conform to some predetermined and narrowly-defined government idea like "Neighbourhood Watch". I think we've been indoctrinated to feel guilty, even ashamed, of "doing right" by other people, just like we've been made to feel that belonging to a union or to a political party is aberrent behaviour.
Bread and circuses (or chips and soaps and footie, if you want to modernise that) is always going to keep a certain amount of people compliant, but remember that even in the early days of Rome, it didn't always work well enough to stop people rebelling.

The basis for the last thirty years was laid throughout the post-war period, however. Paradoxically, it was the rise in working class living standards, fought for by the labour movement, that ultimately undermined it and the working class solidarity on which it relied. I remember my mother, as a factory shop steward in the 1970s and '80s, complaining about how difficult it was to get people to take action in their own interests. Most people were already more interested in soaps and football. The legendary militancy of the era, although widespread, was the preserve of a large vociferous minority. By the time of the miners' strike, when I was a factory worker myself, the working class was already on its knees politically, and the militant minority smaller. Again, myths abound about the era. Collecting for the miners in the workplace and at street collections etc, there was plenty of support, but also widespread hostility, as the polls of the time indicated.

A mass media-saturated society can only undermine working class solidarity (or any other form of solidarity), often replacing it with some Benetton-like abstract 'caring' bullshit.
 
The basis for the last thirty years was laid throughout the post-war period, however. Paradoxically, it was the rise in working class living standards, fought for by the labour movement, that ultimately undermined it and the working class solidarity on which it relied. I remember my mother, as a factory shop steward in the 1970s and '80s, complaining about how difficult it was to get people to take action in their own interests. Most people were already more interested in soaps and football. The legendary militancy of the era, although widespread, was the preserve of a large vociferous minority. By the time of the miners' strike, when I was a factory worker myself, the working class was already on its knees politically, and the militant minority smaller. Again, myths abound about the era. Collecting for the miners in the workplace and at street collections etc, there was plenty of support, but also widespread hostility, as the polls of the time indicated.

A mass media-saturated society can only undermine working class solidarity (or any other form of solidarity), often replacing it with some Benetton-like abstract 'caring' bullshit.
past influences present shock
 
There is a painting by Klee called Angelus Novus. An angel is depicted there who looks as though he were about to distance himself from something which he is staring at. His eyes are opened wide, his mouth stands open and his wings are outstretched. The Angel of History must look just so. His face is turned towards the past. Where we see the appearance of a chain of events, he sees one single catastrophe, which unceasingly piles rubble on top of rubble and hurls it before his feet. He would like to pause for a moment so fair, to awaken the dead and to piece together what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing from Paradise, it has caught itself up in his wings and is so strong that the Angel can no longer close them. The storm drives him irresistibly into the future, to which his back is turned, while the rubble-heap before him grows sky-high. That which we call progress, is this storm.

you should attribute your quotes
 
We're not creeping towards a fascist state at all. We do seem to have a government that wants to make us more like the US, though. There will be precious little left of the old social democracy achievements once this govt's done. :(
 
There is a painting by Klee called Angelus Novus. An angel is depicted there who looks as though he were about to distance himself from something which he is staring at. His eyes are opened wide, his mouth stands open and his wings are outstretched. The Angel of History must look just so. His face is turned towards the past. Where we see the appearance of a chain of events, he sees one single catastrophe, which unceasingly piles rubble on top of rubble and hurls it before his feet. He would like to pause for a moment so fair, to awaken the dead and to piece together what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing from Paradise, it has caught itself up in his wings and is so strong that the Angel can no longer close them. The storm drives him irresistibly into the future, to which his back is turned, while the rubble-heap before him grows sky-high. That which we call progress, is this storm.
You nicked that almost word for word from Walter Benjamin's "Theses on the Philosophy of History"
 
I think we've spent the last 30 or so years being taught that caring more about yourself or about Dot Cotton than about your class or your community is normal, and that things like altruism, community-mindedness and the like are abnormal, except when they conform to some predetermined and narrowly-defined government idea like "Neighbourhood Watch". I think we've been indoctrinated to feel guilty, even ashamed, of "doing right" by other people, just like we've been made to feel that belonging to a union or to a political party is aberrent behaviour.
Bread and circuses (or chips and soaps and footie, if you want to modernise that) is always going to keep a certain amount of people compliant, but remember that even in the early days of Rome, it didn't always work well enough to stop people rebelling.

I agree about your bread and circuses point, but am a bit puzzled about the other stuff you say. Who is made to feel abnormal about altruism and community mindedness? Who is made to feel guilty and ashamed for doing right, or belonging to a union or political party? And who is making them feel guilty and abnormal?
 
almost ?!
For instance you wrote "while the rubble-heap before him grows sky-high. That which we call progress, is this storm." The copy I have before me says "while the pile of debris before him grows skyward. This storm is what we call progress"
 
For instance you wrote "while the rubble-heap before him grows sky-high. That which we call progress, is this storm." The copy I have before me says "while the pile of debris before him grows skyward. This storm is what we call progress"

your right. It's a different translation to what appeared in illuminations, but seemed a more emphatic ending. But it was intended to be a quote from him, rather than me nicking the words.
 
No we're not creeping towards a fascist state. A fascist state involves a whole range of things that we are a million miles from (it means the total dissoluution of all parties seen as harmful to the national community, the legal and physical smashing of unions, the stopping off all media except govt regulated outlets, the re-organisation of the education system to support the ideology of the leading party, the re-organsiation of the military and so on) It doesn't just mean bad things. Bad things come with the state, it's normal - it's part of the deal. Calm down.
You don't really need a ruling party, when all the parties agree with each other about virtually everything, though.
 
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