Are we creeping towards being a fascist state?

[treelover]

Hungary could definitely go down that road...

 

[The39thStep]

Really? Care to post some links?

You really didn't pick up the same feeling? The transfer of second votes from the BNP and UKIP to Boris,the banning of alcohol on Tubes , the Olympics. People looked very frightened to me .

 

[ViolentPanda]

You really didn't pick up the same feeling? The transfer of second votes from the BNP and UKIP to Boris,the banning of alcohol on Tubes , the Olympics. People looked very frightened to me .

I know that UKIPers were actively talking about giving Boreis their 2nd votes, but I wasn't aware that the BNP had done so in any numbers, even though there was all sorts of shit on ShitCunt and the like, with the more articulate BNPers prodding the others to do so. I suspect that too many of them would have struggled to get past his pragmatic pro-multiculturalism (i.e. he may not like it, but he's always gone along with it).

 

[LLETSA]

Ruling class political culture is always reactionary, due to it's nature. If you're ruling class then, even if yesterday you were part of the revolutionary vanguard, your taking and use of power renders you in reaction because power will act on you and force you to change perspective.

It doesn't only apply to vanguards and is, of course, where the story ends.

It also explains why true rebels can only be in opposition, no matter what the circumstances.

 

[LLETSA]

many people would like their countries to be as free and democratic as say russia (which is pretty free and democratic compared to what it was)

In practice, ordinary Russians are less able to do anything about their situation than during the days of Soviet rule. Rule by state bureaucrats, or rule by the former KGB in alliance with oligarchs/the mafia.

 

[frogwoman]

In practice, ordinary Russians are less able to do anything about their situation than during the days of Soviet rule. Rule by state bureaucrats, or rule by the former KGB in alliance with oligarchs/the mafia.

Sorry - I meant to say in superficial terms of "political freedoms" (which often only end up being for those who can afford it) not that russia actually is that free and democratic in practice at all ...

 

[LLETSA]

Sorry - I meant to say in superficial terms of "political freedoms" (which often only end up being for those who can afford it) not that russia actually is that free and democratic in practice at all ...

Although formal rights to oppose the regime now exist, serious opposition in today's Russia could easily get you killed, which wasn't usually the case after 1956. It is now often organised crime that does the state's bidding, in a manner typical of many 'Third World' countries.

 

[frogwoman]

yep, right.

which is kind of the point i'm making - the guy up the thread was argueing that brazil was classified as a "liberal democracy" (despite the fact that in brazil as well, aren't there - or at least weren't there - police death squads and so on, and other very well documented human rights abuses) and so the UK by brazilian standards seemed extremely liberal - and i was arguing that rather than becoming fascist the UK is coming more into line with the rest of the world, "liberal" or otherwise

 

[1%er]

What I'm saying isn't that the UK is becoming fascist - I'm saying it's becoming - gradually - more like the country you live in (which is also not fascist). And over the next period this process will - imo - accelerate, giving the impression among the more gullilble of "fascism" being around the corner but simply what's happening is that imo liberal democracies like the uk are getting more into line with the rest of the world rather than the goose steps and brown shirts making an appearance

many people would love their country to have the same freedoms as brazil - the right to protest - the right to strike etc etc etc, the same as many people would like their countries to be as free and democratic as say russia (which is pretty free and democratic compared to what it was)

im not arguing this is good - i'd be the first to say it wasn't - but hysteria does not pay imo

If we lived in a fascist state, believe me - we'd know

It is hard to follow this debate as people seem to be using the words fascist and authoritarian as having the same meaning and clearly that isn't the case.

I think we are in agreement, I don't think the UK is anywhere near being a fascist state, I thought the debate had moved on from there to argue that the UK is becoming more authoritarian.

Governments are always having to make new laws, look at the Internet as a great example, almost all Government are playing catch up and having to make laws to deal with new inventions and new situations. Governments by their nature are authoritarian, how one judges if they are becoming more authoritarian seems to me to be a personal judgement.

You may be right that the UK is becoming more like Brazil (although you need to factor in that Brazil is a country on the up while the UK is a country in decline) but I would add that Brazil is working hard to remove some of the "hangover" from the dictatorship and I personally believe that there will be blood on the streets as they do this, but that is a very different debate, so I'll leave it there