Are Black kids to blame for street robbery?

[editor]

Just got this through my letterbox, and it looks like being an interesting talk:

Are Black kids to blame for street robbery?
The 1st Arlene Mundle Debate
7pm, Wed 12th June at the Fridge,
1a Town Hall Approach, Brixton

'One in four robbers arrested by the police in England and Wales is young and black? Who should we blame?The parents? The schools? The media? The police?...'

Chaired by:
Henry Bonsu/Brenda Emmanus (BBC London)
Speakers include:
Courteney Griffiths QC
(Barrister in Damilola case)
Chris Woodhead
(former Chief Inspector of Schools)
Tim Godwin
(Met Police, Dep Asst Commissioner)
The event will be recorded for broadcast by BBC London.
Plus special guests and music

More info: Jennifer Douglas 07785 534282
Nicholas Long: 07771 973830

 

[fizzgig]

One in four, who are the other three?

 

[TinyCrendon]

that looks very disturbing. what is the point of it ? to raise race hate ? what has `blackness` to do with crime ? are they doing a white boys burgle debate ? are they doing a young men commit most petty crime debate ? who are the street robbers in gateshead and wrexham and carlisle, black ? why fixate on `black crime` ? as opposed to crime.

lots of liberals and police combining to raise the hate level.

and they are broadcasting it as well. dear oh dear.

maybe a show `race theory was in fact correct we should have let hitler win after all now who fancies a cappacino` is an idea i can float to the executives who dreamed this up.

 

[editor]

A note: the talk is hosted by the Arlene Mundle Scholarship.

Mundle was, "was a campaigner for social justice and a fearsome adversary to anyone who stood in her way. She was a crucial figure in reshaping relations between the black community and the police in south London, but her influence stretched far wider, touching the very heart of national policing policy"

More info here

 

[TopCat]

mmm...

Black robbers not black kids are to blame for the robberys they carry out.

There is indeed a culture amongst some young people generally that force is good and robbery is a respectable way to raise cash to pay for nice things.

As for blame, it rests with the robbers.

Want to decrease the amount of robberys and street crime generally?

Take a look at the number of easily accessable jobs that pay say £500 per week plus, take steps to increase the number of such jobs and try to ensure that they are not all taken by middle class kids.

Personally I am suspiscious that the above meeting is just a cynical excercise in raising the profile of a contentious issue in order to kick start the political career of some self serving middle class git.

 

[TinyCrendon]

boogie

 

[fizzgig]

Am I just stupid but one in four, is that one being black and one being white and one being asian and one being other?

Hows it worked out?

 

[hatboy]

Agree with the responses above. This debate has the wrong title even if it turns out interesting in itself. As said above "fuck racialising crime" - it's divisive, dangerous, simplistic and well, just not accurate.

What about: "Does advertising promote greed and envy?" or "Is the world utterly unfair?"

 

[fubert]

A robbery is a robbery. The colour of the skin of the person who commits that robbery is irrelevant.

 

[William of Walworth]

I totally agree with fubert and Top Cat ....

 

[pooka]

If it is the case that the figure is 1 in 4, then there is a question to be answered given that across the UK, about 5% of the population are categories as belonging to "ethnic communities", which includes afro-carribean, asian etc. I recall that about two years ago the Met issued figures that there was a disproportionate number of young black kids nicked for robberies. There was an outcry against it initially. But if there is an issue then it has to be addressed, in fairness to the kids themselves as much as anyone else. And that should be done in a cross community non-racist fashion.
Asking the question need not be racist, indeed failing to may well be, in an inverted sort of way.

We do know that crime is associated with:

Young men;
Low educational achievements;
Unemployemnt;

And we know that young black people suffer disproportionately from the latter two. And that the alienation that breeds has, for some, contributed to the development of a "gangsta culture".

If recognising the symptoms honestly leads to addressing the causes, then it should be faced up to.

 

[isvicthere?]

Pooka

Good post - there are a lot of people on these boards who simplify things too much - e.g. discussing racial issues = "racism".

What's being hasndled here is a very difficult, complex and sensitive issue. To trivialise it along the lines of crude ideology, as some posters are often too ready to do, is IMO not a useful exercise.

 

[hatboy]

I agree with that too Pooka. It's just so depressing that some people infer that black = inherently criminal from such things as the title of this thread. (I don't mean people on here).

 

[TopCat]

How do you think it's been trivialised Vic?

 

[pinkmonkey]

If you ever read the Voice newspaper, you will see that the Black community in London are asking the same question as is being debated. They are very keen on getting to the bottom of this.

The comment I would make is this....

Has political correctness stopped us from addressing this problem? The black community want this sorted, others have made similar comments to Adam Porter. (Not having a go at you Adam!)

The facts remain: One in Four. No matter how touchy feely and p.c. you get, its still one in four. We need to find out why. Telling people to stop being racist will solve nothing. Pooka has got it spot on.

Did anyone ever hear about issues of disciplining black pupils in school? There is a theory out there that white teachers are afraid of disciplining black pupils for fear of being accused of being racist. This results is black kids running wild due to no discipline?

Is this rubbish? Does this leading to the street robberies? What do people think? I am commenting as a white person who sometimes reads the voice, so I may not be that well informed on this subject.

 

[William of Walworth]

Has political correctness stopped us from addressing this problem?

Well it's being discussed here, isn't it? And in the Voice. So for me the "Political Correctness" MY ARSE (R, TM) thingy remains .... no-one need be scared of discussing anything nor are we ... it's only a matter or respecting courtesy and avoiding insulting invensitive, which most Urbanites are pretty good at avoiding round here. Doesn't mean we can't address tough issues!

I suspect teachers are not scared of disciplining kids because they're black but because some of them are physically intimidating, and this can apply to ANY race of kid, and aggressive and scary and difficult to deal with and some of them may have parents/big brothers etc. who will threaten to duff the teachers up. It's not racist to be afraid of an intimidating early adolescent ....

 

[detective-boy]

I doubt very much if this debate is being put up to promote any mischief.

As Mike said, Arlene Mundle was active in her local community (Brixton), acting as a lay advisor to investigating officers in serious cases and becoming involved in all sorts of local community - police issues with locally based officers. On occasion she even put her personal safety on the line to do what she thought was right and necessary.

I speak from personal experience when I say that her input to an attempted murder investigation made my life as the investigating officer far simpler than it would have been (in some respects) though she was definitely challenging of me and my strategies .

She worked a lot with a local clergyman, Brother Ivelaw (I think I have his name right). Together they contributed massivley to local community-police relations.

I only recently discovered she had tragically died - a great loss to Brixton for sure - and I am delighted to see this event (which looks like it means to become annual) in her memory.

I am sure the motivation for the debate is good: to try and explore the reasons behind the observed facts - black youths, in some areas, are over-represented as street robbers. I personally have dealt with many black youths who have seen it as "their" thing - sometimes suggesting that it's because white boys aren't up to it ("They're pussies" to use an actual quote!)

It's not because they are black ... so why is it? If society can try and work that out perhaps something can be done to divert them. Talking about it can only help I think.

This debate has, in my opinion, been avoided due to political correctness fears. I for one will try to attend. Maybe I'll see some of you there (or pop in the Albert afterwards)

 

[Bond]

From experience I totally think that race is irrelevant when it comes to street robbery as it is still robbery, however I do think it's good to adress the subject and explore the topic more maybe. As a mate of mine from Cambridge just said to me on the phone it's god to bring these kind of things into the open and discuss them. It won't do any harm.

 

[pooka]

Hello again Detective Boy,

I'm not sure from editors post if this is an open meeting or he was sent an invite as a prominent person in these parts - perhaps ring one of the numbers and see. If I'm back in Brixton on time, I'll try and get down. Though Chris Woodhead is not the most tactful of speakers to say the least and Courteney Griffiths, though black, was the prosecution barrister in the Damilola case (yeah, I know all the taxi rank stuff, but....), don't know anything about Tim Godwin.

 

[ats]

If black kids are disproportionately involved in certain kinds of crime, to say so may be to recognise the effects of racism rather than to be racist.

For example: kids that are excluded from school are more likely to commit crime, simply because they are out on the streets. If black kids are more likely to be excluded from school (eg because white teachers can't handle them) then they are more likely to be committing crime. But it's the school exclusions that is the issue, and if we deny the effect we are less likely to recognise it.

Detective-boy says 'it's not because they are black', and of course he is right in the sense that Afro-Caribbean genes do not somehow automatically predispose anyone to criminality. But being black does make a person a victim of racism, and that can have lot of effects.

I also feel that you've got to be -very cautiously - open to the possibility that there is a cultural element in all this. Are there things affecting young black men that are different from those affecting young white men?

 

[Peter Matisse]

I agree with the points that Pooka and Detective Boy and others have made. This is important and we should not be afraid to discuss it for fear of being callled racist.

I sometimes think that statistics can be made to back any point of view. Sometimes they are no more helpful than a starting point for debate.

One thing that I would like to know is, that if street crime/robbery etc. is predominately a crime committed by young people, then what are the numbers of young black people compared to other groups. If there are more young black people then it may just be a case of numbers rather than a race issue.

 

[detective-boy]

er ... shome mishtake shurely!

Originally posted by pooka
... and Courteney Griffiths, though black, was the prosecution barrister in the Damilola case (yeah, I know all the taxi rank stuff, but....)

I think the officer in the case may disagree somewhat - he was the most vociferous and challenging of the defence barristers!

For your info., Tim Godwin is the Deputy Assistant Commissioner responsible for "Territorial Policing" (i.e. all the Boroughs). He also has a responsibility for Crime on Boroughs. He came to the Met about six years ago as a Commander, from Sussex. He is a thoughtful and competent senior officer with a genuine desire to make the streets safer.

 

[William of Walworth]

Excellent post from ats there .... excellent ... hits the nail right on ...

 

[hipipol]

Race or Culture?

Personally I think if I was of West Indian descent and was continually told that I was going to be descrminated against, plus the fact that my teachers expected nothing of me, other than fattening up a dole line, that the music of my "culture" is now predominantly Dancehall, with its obsession with easy money, guns and whores, well I would kind of feel pushed in the direction of crime.
BUT, thats Culture, not Race.
If you look at the average incomes and accedemic qualifications of British cictzens of Asian descent it gets more obvious- Bengalis from Idia and Bangledesh have the same language as each other but the Indian ancestry tends to mean greater achievement-why? We are talking about people from only a hundred miles apart, with a massive number of shared traditions. The difference can only be cultural-in this case religion. Its not however,race.

 

[Spud Murphy III]

This sounds a bit similar to the recent debates as to why black lads tend to do poorly at school relative to black girls, who are starting to do well for themselves academically.

I don't see anything wrong with such debates at all - provided they are initiated and managed by black people themselves.

Doesn't a community have the right to discuss issues of importance to itself?

 

[TopCat]

thinking mode On...more later perhaps.

 

[pooka]

detective boy: Ooops, by some wierd glitch of keyboard fingers I meant defence barrister! (hence "although black himself).

pinkmonkey: You're right, after the initial hoo ha over the Mets figures, the black community did start to take this seriously, as well as black on black crime. I recall seeing a Despatches programme with Trevor Phillips and Alex whatsit form Lambeth (unfortunately Alex was most concerned with presenting his own case and slagging of the Met, than getting down to the real issues). I've also spoken with middle-aged/elderly carribean people round about who are horrified by this stuff and from their perspective seem to see it as the downside of coming here in the first place - they compare young black people's experience here with their own youth in the carribean.

I agree entirely with Spud that this debate can only credibly be led by the black community; it's for the rest of us to provide the space and support for them to do that without exposing themselves to the racist rabble.

As with any disadvantaged group, regardless of race, it's important to make the distinction that recognising the correlates of crime is not the same as excusing it. To do the latter plays into the hands of the likes of the Mail.

As regards teachers backing-off bad behaving black kids because of "political correctness", well I've had teachers tell me that happens. I think basically any kids who want get up to dodgy stuff are cute enough to use whatever levers are available to them to manipulate authority; it would be surprising if black kids were any different in that respect.

Peter: The whole point is that black kids are over-represented ie turn up in court in greater proportion than their numbers in society generally.

 

[adi baby]

ive said it before and i'll say it again - the social contract in this country has been torn up - the idea of society in britain today is just an illusion perpetuated by the cash-ok middle classes who do not want to feel too scared - the kids aint got no politics cause there aint any out there working for them - all they got is the bottom line - cash = happiness and security. the way to that cash is gangsterism. simple. IF the police and the schools and the job markets suffer from 'institutionalised racism' then that is where the lack of prospects, the deep cynicism, the resentment and ultimately the temptation to rob come from for black youths on the receiving end of this crap.

 

[ats]

We're also now in a society where there is tremendous consumerist pressure on ALL young people, to buy the right trainers, the right clothes, whatever, whatever. For poor kids, who don't naturally have the kind of money that gives access to all that stuff, this creates great pressure. (When I was a teenager, you could be cool by just growing your hair. Happy days..)

I read somewhere that consumerism is considered to be a bigger cause of crime among young people than drugs. Has anybody got any suppporting facts?

 

[pooka]

There is truth in what you're saying adi, but it's just a tad a philosophy of despair. The idea of society is decidedly not an illusion - examples of people going out of their way to help each other, to look after their communities and environment are legion. Indeed, the person who this lecture is in memory of is a case in point. If the middle-classes simply wanted to avoid feeling too scared, then they'd just concentrate themselves in gated communities, demand more police, harsher sentencing and so on. Some do, but by no means all - hardly a majority i'd say.

Consumerism is more rampant than before, but hardly new. I think it is the case that for some kids thirty years ago, its was sufficient to grow your hair to be cool, but but for plenty it was about having a motorbike, second hand cortina , or whatever.

And today, the majority of kids (black or white) don't succumb to crime in spite of being subject to the pressure adi and ats set out.