And next, Syria?
- Thread starter Idris2002
- Start date
nuffsaid
But this goes up to 11
And given this I was amazed yesterday to hear a poll in the country showed a clear majority against military action. It's not a binary choice of punishment or not! Not acting gives a green light to Assad to carry on and the next town will get bombed and attacked with chemical weapons. If the west draws red lines then it needs to act if they are crossed, otherwise there are no red lines.
As for the Russian threat, just cut off all oligarchs' assets, not a single shot needs to be fired to undermine Putin.
rekil
to menny cranks
Snopes on Russian/Assadist disinformation and the *tankie/fash/conspiraloon tripartite alliance. It echoes what some here have been saying for ages but the bit about the American far-right also applies to the international far-right.
Disinformation and Conspiracy Trolling in the Wake of the Syrian Chemical Attack
*need a better word than 'tankie' for these people
Disinformation and Conspiracy Trolling in the Wake of the Syrian Chemical Attack
*need a better word than 'tankie' for these people
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
It's because of the constant background of 'well Iraq was such a disaster therefore everything else we ever do militarily from now on will be a disaster.' I have to confess I don't know what it would achieve but even if it undermines the regime a little bit it can't be a bad thing. Assad is massacring people in besieged enclaves with chemical weapons and he's doing it with impunity.
Totally agree with your point about Russia. They've carried out a chemical weapons attack on the streets of this country. Cut their money off, freeze assets, sanction them until their eyes bleed. There's really no need for the anxious 'ooh what shall we do? We can't go to war with them' and no one wants that but this pussy footing around the issue of Russian filthy money all over the place is wearing thin.
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LDC
On est tous des pangolins
The committed pro-Assad and conspiracy theory bunch need finally driving out the of left once and for all.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I'm against British military intervention, or at least the sorts of intervention we are going to be presented with*. I'd be against it regardless of which PM led it.
*However I'd shed no tears if - say - the SAS went in and quietly offed Assad. But they haven't, and won't will they?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Agreed.
I remember protesting against attacks on Iraq back in the 90s and having pretty robust confrontations with (iirc) the WRP who were backing Saddam.
Not sure how the balance of forces lie now though
OzT
Online early mornings when at work ....
That would be brill, zap the bloke. Though puts us in the dangerous CIA type murderer terrority though!
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Agreed.
I remember protesting against attacks on Iraq back in the 90s and having pretty robust confrontations with (iirc) the WRP who were backing Saddam.
Not sure how the balance of forces lie now though
IME it's really changed, I find loads of people in 'the scene' now have politics that touch on conspiracy theory and/or anti-imperialist politics that led them in bonkers directions. Fucking depressing.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Why has it changed?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no one's backing saddam now.Agreed.
I remember protesting against attacks on Iraq back in the 90s and having pretty robust confrontations with (iirc) the WRP who were backing Saddam.
Not sure how the balance of forces lie now though
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
2003+internet+skunk
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
It's mirrored in the wider cultural space as well isn't it?
Death of expertise, rise in access to social media, death of much of the organized and coherent left, rampant individualization, mis-trust/confusion/loss of belief in mass change post-Iraq War. All that and more.
There's also roots historically within the scene of this stuff, but more recently I think the focus on banks and finance capital (especially in the '90s and then around Occupy) enabled some of this stuff to gain massive strength, and also a lack of willingness and political confidence/ability to counter it with better politics, often justified with some weird 'anarchist' "You can't tell people what to think maaaaan."
There's also a link to Corbyn where his rise has strengthened the old guard of anti-imperialism who are ripe with this shit.
If I was more conspiracy minded
I'd say there's been some organized effort to push that kind of politics more by some people/actors...Do think there's a call for a well written article about this phenomena... anyone?
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nuffsaid
But this goes up to 11
But people should realise this is different to Iraq, we're not looking to invade, we're looking to stop chemical warfare becoming normal.
Bang on...
That's the question. What would it achieve? Cruise missiles smashing empty buildings and cratering runways on abandoned bases (since the Syrians are surely dispersing their military assets). I don't see it undermining the regime, but it certainly risks a confrontation with Russia. The US and it's coalition of the willing are certainly responsible for more deaths in Iraq than Assad is in Syria. And the invaders bear a large responsibility for the rise of ISIS and the disaster Syria has become. Assad is scum but even if he's toppled, what comes next? I seriously doubt Trump, May and Macron have thought this through at all.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Statement from Rethink Rebuild society in Manchester(aka the British Syrian Community of Manchester):
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I did try and copy and paste it into a quote for easier reading but iPhone not willing!
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
I've seen it creep ever slowly, slowly since 9/11. I remember watching loose change and thinking 'hey, there's something to this' because I was a droopy eyed 21 year old stoner. I have a lot to thank this site for as it's my primary source for figuring out what's going on in the world and it was here I had thoughts of 'hey, there's something to this' taken apart. But conspiraloon bollocks has gone from strength to strength and it's largely down to the Internet giving a larger platform to pricks like Icke, Jones et al. Now the shit has floated well and truly to the top.
Amazing as I write this I actually hear the Russian foreign minister use the term 'false flag,' that's how far it's gone.
Geri
wasn't born to follow
Here it is.
STATEMENT: Potential UK Military Action Against the Syrian Regime
12 April 2018
In light of the possible military action that the UK might conduct together with the US and France against the Syrian regime in response to the latter’s suspected responsibility for the chemical attack that occurred in the town of Douma in rural Damascus on the 7th of April, we wish to make our position clear.
No one can be happy with the prospect of their country being bombed, yet the current situation in Syria must be put in its proper context. The Syrian regime’s mass killing and terrorisation has reached inhumane standards that has made many Syrians hope for any form of action that is able to stop the regime’s ongoing bombing campaigns. Importantly, these Syrians are tentatively hopeful that such a prospective military strike might change the power balance (currently skewed in favour of Russian and Iran) to help stop the war, rather than escalate the situation.
As a general principle, we believe all attacks that indiscriminately target civilians - using chemical or non-chemical weapons - are crimes in which their perpetrators must be held accountable. For the past years, we have been calling for international action to stop the bloodshed that is mainly being spilt by the Syrian regime. It is disappointing that world powers - supposed guarantors of international security - had to wait until more than 400,000 civilians were killed and half the population were displaced before showing a will to respond to the regime’s violations of International Humanitarian Law.
It is with bitterness that we believe that a well-planned and purposeful military strike, which sends a clear message to the Syrian regime that it cannot pursue a sole military solution, can help increase chances for the political resolution of the conflict. This strike must only be made with the purpose of vehemently making clear to the Syrian regime that it will not reassert its authoritarian and despotic system of rule, that it will sit at the negotiating table and make compromises to enter into a political process with its opponents in order to find a way out of this cycle of violence and transition into a pluralistic inclusive political system free from oppression and injustice. We do not want to see an escalation of this conflict, nor a Western-Russian confrontation that risks putting people around the world through what Syrians have gone through over the past seven years; we want a form of deterrence that stops the regime’s crimes and facilitates a political process to end the war.
We remain sceptical of this potential military strike’s purpose and outcome, which, as analysed by emerging reports, seems reactionary and limited. The message sent to the regime through a potential military strike should not be: “continue with your killing and takeover of the country, but do not use chemical weapons in doing so”. It should be: “stop the killing, and stop it now”.
We also warn that backing off from the strike now would send the clearest message yet for the regime to carry on with its crimes. It would greatly encourage the scenario of the Syrian regime retaking the country militarily and rule Syria with an oppressive iron first that, with the scale of injustice committed, cannot sustain stability and security within Syria’s borders or around the world for that matter.
Disunity at the UN Security Council has prevented an independent investigation from being carried out and identifying the party responsible for this attack. Yet, we have strong grounds to believe that the Syrian regime was behind this gruesome attack:
1. The immediate outcome of this chemical attack was the submission of the armed opposition group Jaish al-Islam in being taken out from Douma without a full-on ground offensive by the regime. After days of stalled negotiations and intransigence from Jaish al-Islam to leave the area, this attack immediately changed Jaish al-Islam’s calculations and let to the outcome of Jaish al-Islam’s agreed departure.
2. The regime’s suspected use of chemical weapons may have proved to Jaish al-Islam that the regime could take Douma with minimal manpower losses, which helped change Jaish al-Islam’s perceived balance of power.
3. It is less difficult to believe that the attack in Douma (controlled by Jaish-Islam) was committed by the opposing side, the Syrian regime, rather than Jaish al-Islam committing an attack in its confined area and against its stronghold. The remaining opposition-held area in Eastern Ghouta was limited to the single town of Douma, making it difficult to envision how a chemically-loaded rocket would launch and land in about the same location.
4. The regime has a history of daring and testing international limits for its ‘allowed’ scale of actions, dating from its pre-2011 destructive role in destabilising Lebanon and Iraq to the manner in which it has internationally managed the ongoing conflict.
5. After all crimes verified to have been attributed to this regime, including torture until death, forced starvation, and indiscriminate barrel bombing, it is not unlikely that this regime was not ethically, morally, and humanely constrained from committing this horrendous attack against civilians.
We thus believe that any military response from the UK alongside international powers must only be proceeded with if conducted within the following parameters:
• The response must be directed with the purpose of pressuring the Syrian regime and its Iranian and Russian backers to agree to an immediate ceasefire and sit at the negotiating table to find a just political solution that ends the military conflict.
• The response must strictly refrain from putting civilians at risk; it must avoid targeting civilians and civilian-populated areas.
• The response must be followed up with clear justice procedures through international and national courts of justice that hold the Syrian regime accountable for the numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity it has committed over the past years - including the latest chemical attack - in order to more effectively deter the occurrence of such crimes.
Geri
wasn't born to follow
If you go to their events, then you are legitimising them. The more people they get the better, as far as they are concerned.
You can be against the intervention without having to lend those people you support.
I am in two minds about it myself, but ultimately I haven't lived through 7 years of hell so I respect the wishes of the Syrian people on this issue (not that they are all of the same mind, of course, but it does seem from those I am friends with that they are so desperate that the majority of them are in favour of it).
rekil
to menny cranks
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
No I mean the actual foreign minister, Lavrov. He said the words 'false flag' on the news earlier. It's apparently the official Russian state line now.
Edit: That video in the tweet though... wow...
rekil
to menny cranks
It's been their line from the off but still sounds freaky delivered in a press conference. And unless I missed something, none of the journos were competent enough to challenge it.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
I think that's the difference. It's the fact the words 'false flag' were used by the Russian foreign minister in a press conference.
nuffsaid
But this goes up to 11
No they won't because that's against international law, and so is bombing people with chemical weapons which is why we are going to bomb Assad's regime.
Jeremiah18.17
Well-Known Member
May Day marches should be fun. Always bring out the small number of full on psychotic tankies and red-brown scum in full regalia, and you can usually ignore them. This Year they will be bolstered by and in tune with a whole swathe of Labour/OrthoTrot “Anti-Imperialist” types spouting the currently popular social media mix of anti semitism/conspiracism/apologism for fascists and oligarchs.
I predict punch ups.
I predict punch ups.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
This is 2018, it'd be out-sourced to the lowest bidder, probably Capita.
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