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Attica said:
You (collective you) like my writing because;

cos it is fascinating
cos it is provocative
cos it is symbolic
cos it is seductive
cos it is passionate, impassioned
cos it is attractive
cos it is imaginative
cos it is serious
cos it is well grounded
cos it is cunjuring
cos it is dramaturgical
cos it is made with infinite love
cos it is cogent
cos it plays with our feelings and spirit
cos it is suggestive
cos it is intolerant
cos it is disquieting
cos it is allegorical
cos it is dialectical
cos it is political
cos it is historical
cos it is adventurous
cos it is suggestive of an adventure
cos it involves movement
cos it involves change
cos it is prophetic
cos it is always self renewing
cos it never stands still
cos it cannot be written off easily
cos it is always becoming
cos it is always progressing
cos it is against conservative thought in all its forms
cos its time has come
cos its time is the other time, a special time where the past meets the future
cos it is celestial
cos it is erotic, suggestive even
cos it is primitive
cos it is the continuation of the continual, mobile perpetuum of stimulation or of imagination
cos it makes the art of writing the writing of art
cos it makes politics an art and art political
cos it is incandecent, cauterising, burning, napalm
cos it is done with passion and fire
cos it is materialist
cos it makes objective chance conscious
cos it speaks of the possibilities and subjectivity within objectivity
cos it speaks of the objectivity of subjectivity
cos it allows the unconscious and supressed thoughts to be voiced
cos it is inexhaustible like a great thought
cos it is in the natural state it flows freely like a mighty river
cos it is truly free, i fear nothing and no one, the only thing to fear is fear itself
cos it is romantic in the great British tradition (William Blake, Morris etc)
cos it speaks with and of the power of autonomy
cos it speaks of a new and powerful romantic autonomy which is to come and can liberate everybody
cos it is surrealist, assimilating the greatest physical, chemical, sociological, psycho-geographical, physiological, psychological, criminological, psychoanalytical conquests and all science in development, and because it is free of all the conventional frontiers and boundaries, being and becoming the highest ethical values of humanity.
:D:cool:
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if it was, i am sure i would like it .. but .. simply .. it is not ..
 
Attica said:
... If what I say is so wrong then it will obviously be worthless - so why do they spend so much time having a go at me??
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why? becuase while people directly involved in real politics are trying to have real debates based in real actual concreate realities ( to use your language) you disrupt by pitching in with absurd nonsense that is based absolutely NOT in praxis but in dogmatic up it's arse theoretical abstraction .. that is why so many people on here want you to piss off or show some respect ..
 
durruti02 said:
if it was, i am sure i would like it .. but .. simply .. it is not ..
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Well we disagree then.

BTW have you read George Orwell on "Why I write" - i have some similarities [note NOT the same] with him too:eek::D

And while we're on George have you read his "Notes on nationalism"?

You (collective you) like my writing because;

cos it is fascinating
cos it is provocative
cos it is symbolic
cos it is seductive
cos it is passionate, impassioned
cos it is attractive
cos it is imaginative
cos it is serious
cos it is well grounded
cos it is cunjuring
cos it is dramaturgical
cos it is made with infinite love
cos it is cogent
cos it plays with our feelings and spirit
cos it is suggestive
cos it is intolerant
cos it is disquieting
cos it is allegorical
cos it is dialectical
cos it is political
cos it is historical
cos it is adventurous
cos it is suggestive of an adventure
cos it involves movement
cos it involves change
cos it is prophetic
cos it is always self renewing
cos it never stands still
cos it cannot be written off easily
cos it is always becoming
cos it is always progressing
cos it is against conservative thought in all its forms
cos its time has come
cos its time is the other time, a special time where the past meets the future
cos it is celestial
cos it is erotic, suggestive even
cos it is primitive
cos it is the continuation of the continual, mobile perpetuum of stimulation or of imagination
cos it makes the art of writing the writing of art
cos it makes politics an art and art political
cos it is incandecent, cauterising, burning, napalm
cos it is done with passion and fire
cos it is materialist
cos it makes objective chance conscious
cos it speaks of the possibilities and subjectivity within objectivity
cos it speaks of the objectivity of subjectivity
cos it allows the unconscious and supressed thoughts to be voiced
cos it is inexhaustible like a great thought
cos it is in the natural state it flows freely like a mighty river
cos it is truly free, i fear nothing and no one, the only thing to fear is fear itself
cos it is romantic in the great British tradition (William Blake, Morris etc)
cos it speaks with and of the power of autonomy
cos it speaks of a new and powerful romantic autonomy which is to come and can liberate everybody
cos it is surrealist, assimilating the greatest physical, chemical, sociological, psycho-geographical, physiological, psychological, criminological, psychoanalytical conquests and all science in development, and because it is free of all the conventional frontiers and boundaries, being and becoming the highest ethical values of humanity.
 
durruti02 said:
why? becuase while people directly involved in real politics are trying to have real debates based in real actual concreate realities ( to use your language) you disrupt by pitching in with absurd nonsense that is based absolutely NOT in praxis but in dogmatic up it's arse theoretical abstraction .. that is why so many people on here want you to piss off or show some respect ..
Click to expand...

We disagree then. I do give respect to those who deserve it. Show me no respect & you immediately forfeit your 'right to respect'.

I like this;

The Philosophy of Praxis

If you think you are beaten you are. If you think you dare not, you don't. If you like to win but think you can't, it's almost certain you won't.

If you think you'll lose, you're lost. For out in the world we find, success begins with a fellow's and collective will - it's all in the state of mind.

If you think you are outclassed, you are. You've got to think high to rise. You've got to be sure of yourself before you can ever win a struggle.

Life's battles don't always go to the stronger or faster, but sooner or later the people who win are the people who think they can.

It's very triumph of the will, something even Lenin had, even though 'Leninists' would disagree...
 
Attica said:
We disagree then. I do give respect to those who deserve it. Show me no respect & you immediately forfeit your 'right to respect'.
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it is not about agreeing or disagreeing .. that is subjective .. i am talking objectively .. i show respect to what people concretely do .. i can not objectively respect you as i see nothing that you do that is worthy of respect .. all you can point to is Mayday magazine and an invovlement with CnC .. (so fucking what .. tbh it comes across as snobbish) .. you are not involved with workplaces or have a trade union role and you neither have a community role .. and your writings on here are tbh garbled ..

while they are more than a few on here who disagree with my opinions there are few who do not respect what i have none and continue to do .. ( in fact people listen to my opinions more when they realise they are not abstractions but based in many years of trade union work and community activism )

IF you wish to command respect YOU also need to justify it .. maybe the fact that the BNP gets 28% in your doorstep while they do not even stand in there old fascist strongholds in shoreditch and south islington where IWCA/HI are active might tell you someting about your politics or activity or any respect that is owed ..
 
durruti02 said:
A) it is not about agreeing or disagreeing .. that is subjective .. i am talking objectively ..

B) i show respect to what people concretely do .. i can not objectively respect you as i see nothing that you do that is worthy of respect .. all you can point to is Mayday magazine and an invovlement with CnC .. (so fucking what .. tbh it comes across as snobbish) .. you are not involved with workplaces or have a trade union role and you neither have a community role .. and your writings on here are tbh garbled ..

C) while they are more than a few on here who disagree with my opinions there are few who do not respect what i have none and continue to do .. ( in fact people listen to my opinions more when they realise they are not abstractions but based in many years of trade union work and community activism )

D) IF you wish to command respect YOU also need to justify it .. maybe the fact that the BNP gets 28% in your doorstep while they do not even stand in there old fascist strongholds in shoreditch and south islington where IWCA/HI are active might tell you someting about your politics or activity or any respect that is owed ..
Click to expand...


A) Give over - there is nothing objective in that position - it is your subjective pov wishing it was objective.

B) Get a grip son. I refuse to say all that I do on here, there are things cooking on the back burner which you or anybody else do not need to know at this point. I have said on U75 that I am involved with the IWW, that I helped to organise a bookfair, i organise bookstalls, and I politically work with the Durham Miners Association, the General Secretary to be precise. But again, I do not wish to divulge everything although I have some. I do spend most of my time looking after the young children I have, and everything that entails, and other things too. I am involved with the unofficial campaign on my street against a building company, i think i have mentioned it once...

C) That my political activity does not have enough 'points' which you award according to your criteria does not trouble me one bit. Why should it? TBH I do not know what you do, i have never shawdowed you around, you are awfully well meaning and I do treat you as intelligent. What more do you want?

D) THe IWCA and HI are not responsible for the BNP not standing in Hackney. It is more to do with migration and YOU know it.
 
Attica said:
A) Give over - there is nothing objective in that position - it is your subjective pov wishing it was objective.

B) Get a grip son. I refuse to say all that I do on here, there are things cooking on the back burner which you or anybody else do not need to know at this point. I have said on U75 that I am involved with the IWW, that I helped to organise a bookfair, i organise bookstalls, and I politically work with the Durham Miners Association, the General Secretary to be precise. But again, I do not wish to divulge everything although I have some. I do spend most of my time looking after the young children I have, and everything that entails, and other things too. I am involved with the unofficial campaign on my street against a building company, i think i have mentioned it once...

C) That my political activity does not have enough 'points' which you award according to your criteria does not trouble me one bit. Why should it? TBH I do not know what you do, i have never shawdowed you around, you are awfully well meaning and I do treat you as intelligent. What more do you want?

D) THe IWCA and HI are not responsible for the BNP not standing in Hackney. It is more to do with migration and YOU know it.
Click to expand...

1) whatever .. i do not believe you understand the differrence tbh

2) do not call me son .. it is embarressing when younger people call older people son .. and re respect you utterly prove my point .. you currently and OPENLY do little worthy of respect .. what i can respect is that you look after your kids and are organising re the building company .. trouble is attica you dig your own grave .. deep .. you go on and on and bloody on about your bloody magazine ( and the BNP article IS piss poor btw) while the BNP get 30% of the vote on your doorstep and think we should respect your opinions .. as i said respect is earned ..

3) that you say do not know what i have done or continue to do is also a embaressing thing to say and shows how out of touch with w/c politics you must have been when you were in london

4) you are mainly right, re shorditch and the bnp, but still significantly wrong .. they DO stand in other areas like this ( e.g. in tower hamlets ) but here they simply know it would be utterly pointless . ( p.s. I suspect they are also aware they would probably get batterred ) Btw the same arguement goes for the oxford estates which are also ripe bnp material ..
 
durruti02 said:
1) whatever .. i do not believe you understand the differrence tbh

2) do not call me son .. it is embarressing when younger people call older people son .. and re respect you utterly prove my point .. you currently and OPENLY do little worthy of respect .. what i can respect is that you look after your kids and are organising re the building company .. trouble is attica you dig your own grave .. deep .. you go on and on and bloody on about your bloody magazine ( and the BNP article IS piss poor btw) while the BNP get 30% of the vote on your doorstep and think we should respect your opinions .. as i said respect is earned ..

3) that you say do not know what i have done or continue to do is also a embaressing thing to say and shows how out of touch with w/c politics you must have been when you were in london

4) you are mainly right, re shorditch and the bnp, but still significantly wrong .. they DO stand in other areas like this ( e.g. in tower hamlets ) but here they simply know it would be utterly pointless . ( p.s. I suspect they are also aware they would probably get batterred ) Btw the same arguement goes for the oxford estates which are also ripe bnp material ..
Click to expand...

1) Unfortunately for you I do, and I know it very well.

2) I am sorry you are embarressed - i turned the world upside down when I get lectured by senior citizens:D Its a standard method of protest thru the ages you will find. There are many fine articles in those Mayday magazines:D saying interesting and important things, they should be discussed somewhere and here will do. Given that limpcok continue to ignore the best magazine the movement has :D IT's funny how conservative so called 'anarchists' are, when they would rather suk irrelevant ultra left cok:eek:

3) Pardon me? That I didn't pay 1 person out of 10 million any attention when I was in London? Just trying to find the right word, Catherine Tate impression:hmm: oh yes, here it is Bollocks.

4) Catherine Tate impression.

5) This is going nowhere and I am feeling cheekier and cheekier. The thing is not to take web chit chat seriously.... I suggest we get on with more constructive things.
 
Attica said:
If you want to play with the grown ups (Paul and others);

Half-time team talk: Mayday (UK) response on Anarchism and Marxism
April 2008

For issue #2 (February 2008), Chris Cutrone wrote, in “On anarchism and Marxism: a response to Mayday magazine (UK),” on behalf of Platypus, that the principal difference between anarchism and Marxism lies in the way “history” figures in any present estimations of ideology, conscious political program and organization, at the levels both of the historical specificity of struggles for emancipation beyond the modern society of capital, and in the history of capital itself, of which a Marxian approach considers the history of the Left as an essential and not extrinsic part.

Platypus focuses on redeeming the problematic history of the Marxist Left, “against the grain” (Benjamin) of its more or less contingent or necessary outcomes, in order to discover and provoke conscious recognition of the historically obscured necessities for social-emancipatory political struggle in the present. Political organizations and parties and their programs need to be understood both as forms of action and as forms of memory.

The Platypus critique of anarchism is in its inability to grasp and act upon the specificities of the present as a moment in the history of capital—and what it would take to move beyond and not continue to repeat this history.

Addendum: Platypus recognizes anarchism both historically and at present as symptomatic of the failures of Marxism, as the bad conscience of the history of the Marxist Left, to be overcome only by working through and redeeming this history.

In the following, Trevor Bark writes in further response to Platypus for Mayday.

Platypus is a new group in Chicago that is rethinking the Marxist tradition, and they were quoted in Mayday issue #1. Chris Cutrone, for Platypus, has written a response to the Mayday issue #1 “Introduction: Open letter” in their February 2008 newsletter [The Platypus Review issue #2], raising many important questions, some of which will be addressed now.

Trying to force clear red water between an anarchist and a Marxist approach, Cutrone describes that a “key distinction is the relation of political organisation and historical consciousness.” This historical consciousness is primary for Platypus, and we hope Mayday addressed enough concerns with political practice and memory to be useful. For Mayday experience is a crucial factor, with a concentration on struggles. This is planned to result in praxis, which includes dynamic consciousness, which is grounded in the conditions of our time rather than the past, and has lessons for political organisation. In short, Mayday’s aims are similar to those of Platypus.

We entirely agree that revolutionary organisations should be able to justify themselves, but they are overwhelmingly arrogant and uncritical in the UK. There is little serious discussion of politics, no regular forums, and so on. The serious questions about how political action enables transformative action, “how does political organisation enable transformative, emancipatory, and not foreclosing action? How can the Left ‘live’ and take form not deadly to itself?,” are serious ones for us, even if the UK Left and anarchists ignore them. Specifically the danger of Left organising as a cult is a huge problem in the UK.

A recurring problem is the distinction and the differences between anarchism and the Left; for Mayday, we have dissolved the distinction as an impediment to theoretical and practical endeavours. For us the historical baggage either does not matter or is an impediment to greater unity and better politics; those who insist on hard lines effectively have created a sealed little bubble for themselves. Despite this argument new and interesting articles from both sides continue to appear on 1917 and after. But largely it is a debate for purists and not those looking to develop politics for now and tomorrow. The practices and methodology of Platypus however, are entirely correct for rethinking the Marxist tradition; we wish you well with your project.

We have some toes in the anarchist pool and some in the Labour movement. We are also conscious that a third pool needs to be built, and that is the area of autonomy, but that is already a few decades underway as the New Left already (in the UK at least) has inspired and contributed to the theory of existing autonomists (e.g. Harry Cleaver, University of Texas). Already autonomist practice and theory is very relevant to these discussions, and it is this hybrid, with others perhaps, which Mayday hopes may result in new liberation politics for our time.

One starting point for us has been the ultra voluntarism of anarchism, which demands anarchic responses to virtually all issues, but which is unsustainable because of the resulting arrest rates. That is not to say that confrontation and direct action have been relegated to unimportance for us. They have not; struggles are still our focal concern. This is similar to Platypus and their criticism (vis à vis Nicholas Spencer) of the anarchist tradition.

Platypus’s highlighting of the writing of history as being urgent for emancipatory politics is very worthwhile, and there are others before us who have thought this. In the UK the Communist Party Historians Group — Andrew Morton, Donna Torr, Eric Hobsbawm, E. P. Thompson et al already stated this in 1956—the year so many people left the Communist Party because of repression in Hungary; we “must become historians of the present too.” These British Marxist Historians are important forerunners of the traditions we would like to emulate, and we wholeheartedly concur with understanding “what changes while remaining the same?” The British Left/Labour movement problem however is at an advanced stage; our Left, the oldest in the world perhaps, has unique characteristics of its advanced fossilization.

Our practice already is with the best parts of this tradition, though we are not in a position to overcome it, yet. We also draw wisdom from Antonio Negri, that “organisation is spontaneity that reflects upon itself,” which is a good description of where we are at. Mayday personnel currently derive from different experiences, gatekeepers of at least three important cycles of struggles, were all participants, and we view the next struggles to be as important as the older ones. We want to have an informed basis for the new struggles to come. They will not be totally new, there will always be some connections with the past, but we do aim, with Lukács, to be “those who can see the furthest.”

Platypus further raises an important issue of “when” was the Left, not only “where” it was or where it is. Indeed, this is an interesting historical note, and theirs is a great point; we cannot better it: “We do not live in some timeless and perpetual present of oppression and struggle against it, but in… ‘the time of now’ (Jetztzeit), a time of particular and fleeting possibilities and the ambiguously obscure history that brought them—us—into existence.”
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I notice that you can't play with the grown ups:(
 
Anarchy: Politics For Children????????

Are you seriously saying this is an adult discussion?:eek::rolleyes::cool:
 
Nigel said:
Are you seriously saying this is an adult discussion?:eek::rolleyes::cool:
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This is the web, you can't have serious discussions on an open access forum. It is impossible.

Real politics is done in 'real life' - but our movement doesn't do real politics well at all. Again, one bookfair a year does not a movement or politics make...

It's fucking obvious....:)
 
butchersapron said:
There were ex acefers but they were not an organsational split from A(C)F.

Let the AWG be lesson to you all, you busy men behind the scenes, men about town, shush, go through me no one else style bravados ;)
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yeah we'll try not to back saddam. I mean, fuck its tempting sometimes, but...:D

Fucking AWG :D Some of L&S met them a while back (those who didn't become trots) and said they were fucking weirdoes. The WSM piece on them is the final word really, nothing more to be said:
http://www.spunk.org/texts/groups/wsm/sp000008.txt

But still essential reading is the AWG's 'anarchism in the Thatcher years' which is fucking win win win:
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/awg/awg_thatcher1.html *

This is a very good intro into Uk anarchism, even if its 20 years old. Very little has changed. The piece cannot be cancelled out by what numpties the AWG were, it stands alone.

*i do not agree with the line that if you do not support the unification of ireland you are by default supporting the British state's occupation. You can oppose the occupation unconditionally, its not binary. Otherwise you end up doing, ooh lets see, mad things like backing saddam :rolleyes:
 
In Bloom said:
As I've said, we are a little inconsistant on industrial strategy in practice, which is a problem, but that's not the same as the AF having several different explicitly stated positions as an organisation.
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well that's the benefit of not taking positions innit. Not a snipe, just saying. If it fits your model of organisation not to, it will make things much easier - so fair play.
 
Taxamo Welf said:
my god this is far enough off the mark to be on stormfront! :eek:
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Ah the angst of youth.

It's a personal hatred comment, it is nothing to do with politics;)

Read my blog if you want sensible politics - i'll pm you it. Open access discussion forums are not real life - perhaps somebody should have told you that by now.
 
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