Afghanistan: Mission Accomplished

[ruffneck23]

In my house he's known as the cunt Johnson or penguin fodder. But nonetheless he is still popularly known as boris

I cant disagree with you, so fuck popular.

 

[ska invita]

I do respect Clive Lewis... some good stuff here i think (for a sitting Labour MP). id be spitting blood if i had to sit in the commons and listen to what he heard



as an aside (mentioned in the interview) this was shocking to me - 90%? Utter cunts
"leaked Pentagon documents show that during a five-month period in 2013, 90% of those killed by US drone strikes in Operation Haymaker in north-east Afghanistan were unintended targets. (civilians)
In fact, according to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, US drone strikes have killed 1,551 civilians in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen since 2004. Some of these deaths appear to have been unlawful, and may even amount to extrajudicial executions or war crimes"

 

[cupid_stunt]

Blimey, the Sky News reporter on the ground is reporting that the Taliban are working closely together with the British army to control the chaos at the airport, with the Taliban even working behind the British line, his package included a brief piece from a UK army spokesman commenting on basically how grateful they are to have the Taliban helping them with the situation.

By all accounts, things are not working so well at the US controlled line.

 

[seventh bullet]

No it’s a whole internet meme about people who are thick as mince and also racists.

Only a fuckwit with the sense of humour of a dazed sea sponge would try to make an ‘argument’ that the creator was trying to link poor literacy with bigotry….Oh I see, do carry on and continue grace us with your wisdom. I bet the long winter evenings really fly by round your house.

Meanwhile, this site has already raised over £18,000 for individual refugees from Afghanistan, what have you done for them?

There are ugly, and dare I say it, unquestioned class-based assumptions contained in that ever so deviously funny appeal for money. This kind of thing has been challenged over and over again on here, so I'm reluctant to do it again. Some of the most intelligent and most highly educated people (there is also always the conflation of the two with these progressive bigots) have been racist, even to point of carrying out genocide. But it's the othered, caricatured proles who are first in the minds of their betters. Never anybody like them. And the proles are always thick aren't they?

Also, even if you separate the poorly educated or those with learning difficulties with being racist, your attitude is still awful. One of my work colleagues is an operative in a warehouse with various learning difficulties, pushing 50 with the mind of a kid. He struggles to read and write, is easily confused and frustrated by such things as rotas and holiday booking/return to work forms, signing invoices etc. Instead of mocking him as being thick as mince, we help him, support him, show him how to do what he feels comfortable doing, make sure we do what he can't. It's what being, you know, a half-decent person is all about. As far as I'm aware he isn't racist. I think you're a cunt though. Yours is the attitude that sees people like him sent to the wall socially and economically.

 

[A380]

There are ugly, and dare I say it, unquestioned class-based assumptions contained in that ever so deviously funny appeal for money. This kind of thing has been challenged over and over again on here, so I'm reluctant to do it again. Some of the most intelligent and most highly educated people (there is also always the conflation of the two with these progressive bigots) have been racist, even to point of carrying out genocide. But it's the othered, caricatured proles who are first in the minds of their betters. Never anybody like them. And the proles are always thick aren't they?

Also, even if you separate the poorly educated or those with learning difficulties with being racist, your attitude is still awful. One of my work colleagues is an operative in a warehouse with various learning difficulties, pushing 50 with the mind of a kid. He struggles to read and write, is easily confused and frustrated by such things as rotas and holiday booking/return to work forms, signing invoices etc. Instead of mocking him as being thick as mince, we help him, support him, show him how to do what he feels comfortable doing, make sure we do what he can't. It's what being, you know, a half-decent person is all about. As far as I'm aware he isn't racist. I think you're a cunt though. Yours is the attitude that sees people like him sent to the wall socially and economically.

Bollocks. That's the worst constructed argument I've seen on here in a while and that's saying something. Racism exists across all strata of society; but Social Media is currently chock full of semi literate 'look after our own before Afghan refugees. Just because the circles you moved in are too rarefied to see that don't make it not true.

And the same question for you; how much have you raised for Afghan refugees compared to the people behind this initiative, £23, 000 and counting….

 

[krtek a houby]

He bizarrely seems to be defending the prick.

Looks more like he's pointing out the irony of Blair's comments given his role in the whole debacle.

Anyway, Biden is just doing what Trump and his supporters wanted to do. No real change there.

 

[ska invita]

Anyway, Biden is just doing what Trump and his supporters wanted to do. No real change there.

It's been reported it's what Biden wanted to do during the Obama era

 

[skyscraper101]

It's been reported it's what Biden wanted to do during the Obama era

He took a fairly obvious swipe at Obama during his address to the nation the other day - pointing out that he was opposed to the troop surge in 2009 (which was true, Obama also pointed out that Biden opposed him on this in his autobiography too).

 

[Gramsci]

I see ska invita has already posted the Novara media interview with Clive Lewis MP. To add to what Ska posted on what Clive Lewis MP said on Drones I'd add this summary. Hope its accurate.

Unlike other Afghan veteran MPs he was not called to speak in the debate. Shameful. In his polite way I could see he was angry as a veteran that in a debate that would get a lot of coverage he was not able to put his views to the British public. So the Novara media interview was what he would have said.

If you go to last section of the interview from about 17 mins in he summarises his position.

His reflection on his experience in Afghanistan was that this was a futile war. One of the justifications of the intervention was to make it a better place. It wasn't for ordinary Afghans. Poverty, lack of jobs and food security are abysmal after years of Western intervention.

He said the question to ask is who profits from this War on Terror. Certainly not ordinary people and the soldiers on the ground. The what he called the transnational security elites supplying military hardware are making millions out of it.

Reflecting on his experience in Afghanistan , its not the ordinary soldiers , its the politicians who make the foreign policy who are at fault.

( I do notice Tony Blair is now regarded as elder statesman whose words of wisdom are to be taken seriously - listened to Radio Four 10pm news today. None of the politicians on the news programme criticised Blair. }

He didn't mention T Blair. He did say that Liberal Interventionism was an "Imperial Hang up" Bombing people into democracy.

He was asked about the debate in the house and Starmer. Ever the gentleman he didn't criticise Starmer personally. He said the mood music as he called it had changed in the PLP. He was concerned at the general tone of the debate with a seeming consensus between most Labour and Tories that this was a Just war.

Near end interview he did say what concerned him about Labour Party was not joining up the dots. BLM movement last year was forgotten. The BLM was partly about examining the long history of slavery, racism, empire and colonialism. The way imperial Britain felt it had God given right to rule. This he linked to later day notion of Liberal Intervention.

His alternative is an ethical foreign policy. He said there are double standards. Criticising Islamic governments in Afghanistan but selling weapons to another repressive Islamic government Saudi Arabia.

He said the global economic system and climate change are the problems that need to be addressed if UK is to be a world player. Not bombing.

I was well impressed by Clive Lewis. Agreed with what he said. Its a symptom of how democracy in this country doesn't work when he was unable to put his views as a veteran of conflict to the nation.

 

[gosub]

My surname starts with an A, so mostly sitting pretty. Except there was always an Abrahams floating around, clearly a Soros conspiracy to make me feel slightly less than superior

Nope just stopping you being first against the wall. Superior coz your name is pretty nuts superior coz of names place in alphabeti wtf

 

[ska invita]

I see ska invita has already posted the Novara media interview with Clive Lewis MP. To add to what Ska posted on what Clive Lewis MP said on Drones I'd add this summary. Hope its accurate.

Unlike other Afghan veteran MPs he was not called to speak in the debate. Shameful. In his polite way I could see he was angry as a veteran that in a debate that would get a lot of coverage he was not able to put his views to the British public. So the Novara media interview was what he would have said.

If you go to last section of the interview from about 17 mins in he summarises his position.

His reflection on his experience in Afghanistan was that this was a futile war. One of the justifications of the intervention was to make it a better place. It wasn't for ordinary Afghans. Poverty, lack of jobs and food security are abysmal after years of Western intervention.

He said the question to ask is who profits from this War on Terror. Certainly not ordinary people and the soldiers on the ground. The what he called the transnational security elites supplying military hardware are making millions out of it.

Reflecting on his experience in Afghanistan , its not the ordinary soldiers , its the politicians who make the foreign policy who are at fault.

( I do notice Tony Blair is now regarded as elder statesman who words of wisdom are to be taken seriously now- listened to centrist Dad Radio Four 10pm news today)

He didn't mention T Blair. He did say that Liberal Interventionist was an "Imperial Hang up" Bombing people into democracy.

He was asked about the debate in the house and Starmer. Ever the gentleman he didn't criticise Starmer personally. He said the mood music as he called it had changed in the PLP. He was concerned at the general tone of the debate with a seeming consensus between most Labour and Tories that this was a Just war.

Near end interview he did say what concerned him about Labour Party was not joining up the dots. BLM movement last year was forgotten. The BLM was partly about examining the long history of slavery, racism, empire and colonialism. The way imperial Britain felt it had God given right. This he linked to later day notion of Liberal Intervention.

His alternative is an ethical foreign policy. He said there are double standards. Criticising Islamic governments in Afghanistan but selling weapons to another repressive Islamic government Saudi Arabia.

He said the global economic system and climate change are the problems that need to be addressed if UK is to be a world player. Not bombing.

I was well impressed by Clive Lewis. Agreed with what he said. Its a symptom of how democracy in this country doesn't work when he was unable to put his views as a veteran of conflict to the nation.

Listening to the Ten OClock news today and its maddening. Centrist Dad runs Britain.

I hope he runs for leader again after Starmer . He's not perfect but he's down to earth, has lived some real world life, is unpretentious, and I think has some genuine convictions that wont be flipped at the first taste of power. I find him relatable and I think the public would do too. And there's no politician better placed to make a 'patriotic' criticism of british imperialism than a former soldier.

 

[Elpenor]

Ethical foreign policy was what Robin Cook was trumpeting at the start of the New Labour era wasn’t it?

 

[gosub]

Ethical foreign policy was what Robin Cook was trumpeting at the start of the New Labour era wasn’t it?

Sounds like good intentions paving material to me

 

[Raheem]

Ethical foreign policy was what Robin Cook was trumpeting at the start of the New Labour era wasn’t it?

Only before they got in, I think.

 

[Dogsauce]

The most brass-necked bit of the stuff Blair has been saying is that by walking away we would be encouraging more terrorism and extremism. Like his own actions had somehow led this to decrease.

I’d even have him on the hook for the right-wing stuff - that has largely been a reaction to migration, itself caused largely by the endless wars in the Middle East and North Africa conducted or enabled/armed by ’western interests’. He’s soaked in blood.

 

[Yossarian]

Hong Kong was a done-deal some time ago, there's not much else to say.

It sounds awful, but talking about Hong Kong feels - to me - like talking to ghosts who don't know they're dead.

If you can leave, you must, and you can't, submit. What else is there to say, or think, or do?

(Same goes for those in the rest of China)

I wouldn't write Hong Kong off just yet. The People's Republic of China isn't going to last forever and Xi Jinping isn't going to live forever.

People generally like to have a say in how they are ruled and while the PRC government might seem firmly in place now, one-party states do tend to collapse suddenly - the PRC has now been in place for 72 years, as long as the Soviet Union, which probably seemed just as immovable as the PRC long into the 1980s. I wouldn't bet against today's political prisoners in Hong Kong being the territory's leaders by the end of the decade - and as events in Afghanistan have shown us, things can change a lot faster than anybody expected.

And the contrast between respect for the rights of people in Afghanistan and people across the border in Xinjiang shows how Western foreign policy is rotten to the core, IMO - the Taliban are evil fascist motherfuckers without a doubt, but even their rule is benign compared to the horrors taking place in Xinjiang, which our leaders are doing fuck-all about.

 

[ska invita]

I wouldn't write Hong Kong off just yet. The People's Republic of China isn't going to last forever and Xi Jinping isn't going to live forever.

People generally like to have a say in how they are ruled and while the PRC government might seem firmly in place now, one-party states do tend to collapse suddenly - the PRC has now been in place for 72 years, as long as the Soviet Union, which probably seemed just as immovable as the PRC long into the 1980s. I wouldn't bet against today's political prisoners in Hong Kong being the territory's leaders by the end of the decade - and as events in Afghanistan have shown us, things can change a lot faster than anybody expected.

And the contrast between respect for the rights of people in Afghanistan and people across the border in Xinjiang shows how Western foreign policy is rotten to the core, IMO - the Taliban are evil fascist motherfuckers without a doubt, but even their rule is benign compared to the horrors taking place in Xinjiang, which our leaders are doing fuck-all about.

It's true history can change in a flash but the CCP look solid as a rock to me, very different from the last days of the USSR.

I think mainstream politicians are critical of China, especially vocal on the right (not necessarily for the right reasons), but there is a codependency built up now that means there's so little pressure that can be put on. They don't dare to do tit for tat I think.

The UK left is pretty silent on China I think, tacitly supportive in some corners

 

[Pickman's model]

It's true history can change in a flash but the CCP look solid as a rock to me, very different from the last days of the USSR.

I think mainstream politicians are critical of China, especially vocal on the right (not necessarily for the right reasons), but there is a codependency built up now that means there's so little pressure that can be put on. They don't dare to do tit for tat I think.

The UK left is pretty silent on China I think, tacitly supportive in some corners

all these people look solid until they don't. there was that sword in the stone bit earlier this year about legitimacy being conferred upon the ccp by their control of the yangtze, and this being undermined by floods. this article China’s Aggressive Tactics Aim to Bolster the Communist Party’s Legitimacy suggests that the ccp bluster is to do with internal difficulties. and we all know how the ccp need annual economic growth of 7.5% to stave off internal unhappiness. sounds like they've a gun to their heads more than they're masters of their destiny. obviously the more they harp on about a harmonious society the more we know their society is not harmonious.

i don't suppose china is going to collapse in the next several years. but i wouldn't be surprised if cracks emerged more and more. some of what did for the ussr was the war in afghanistan. while it's unlikely - i think - that china will become embroiled in that morass, i think it perfectly possible that there will be moves towards war with the united states. and then we'll see what's what. why, only last week the americans issued a new manual on chinese tactics (atp 7-100.3, if you're searching for it) as we've all heard of the american armed forces' shift from fighting non-state actors to preparing for conflict with peer- and near-peer opponents. perhaps some sort of direct conflict or proxy war will emerge and the fall-out from that might deal a blow to the chinese regime. who knows, it might come over taiwan.

 

[not-bono-ever]

The UKG did vote that China is doing bad things but it’s not enforceable. Ditto, raab announced sanctions against a handful of local bigwigs in the region - as if they care. The Chinese have the ability to crash our economy so we stay silent

 

[Pickman's model]

The UKG did vote that China is doing bad things but it’s not enforceable. Ditto, raab announced sanctions against a handful of local bigwigs in the region - as if they care. The Chinese have the ability to crash our economy so we stay silent

tbh i think the chinese realise that our home-grown talent will bugger the economy - after all, you'll never hear anyone in the ccp say 'fuck business' unlike 'penguin fodder' johnson

 

[gosub]

Has Blair turned up in Kabul to help yet?

Or is he just mouthing off and still expecting people to put their arses on the line to carry out what he wants.

20 years of heads banged against the wall. Not that imbecilic to stop.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

A major reason the USSR collapsed so quickly was that hardly anyone believed in the Bolshevik Revolution anymore, or, if they did, they did not see the then current regime as embodying it in any way. When the pressure became too great the house of cards fell apart. The same could happen with China, or something similar. Or not. States and empires with ideological underpinnings can carry on for yonks even when the foundations are crumbling. But not indefinitely.

 

[Pickman's model]

Has Blair turned up in Kabul to help yet?

Or is he just mouthing off and still expecting people to put their arses on the line to carry out what he wants.

20 years of heads banged against the wall. Not that imbecilic to stop.

i don't think anyone really hates the taliban sufficiently to send them blair

 

[DaveCinzano]

i don't think anyone really hates the taliban sufficiently to send them blair

Probably couldn't afford his appearance fee anyway

 

[Pickman's model]

Probably couldn't afford his appearance fee anyway

 

[Raheem]

Probably couldn't afford his appearance fee anyway

He'd probably accept a stake in the business.

 

[DaveCinzano]

He'd probably accept a stake in the business.

Not so sure

 

[Jeff Robinson]

 

[jeff_leigh]

He'd probably accept a stake in the business.

 

[Petcha]

Jesus christ. The former ambassador to the US, Chris Meyer, who I think was ambassador for the invasion, on C4 news right now. 'Now. I've been debating with myself. Does. Afghanistan. Matter? I don't know if it does'

Context being geopolitical, China, Russia etc, of course but fucking hell. Cold.