A third of male university students say they would rape a woman if there no were no consequences

[camouflage]

women are taught to fear. we're taught to fear men through every bit of crap safety advice we get and every bit of unpleasent male behavior we deal with. want to make fear go away? deal with shitty male behavior in public, the twats that think they own public space and have the right to make others afraid of them

and do you really believe that learning any martial art is some kind of fix?

Well I was being tongue-in-cheek with that one, but in principal yes I believe that self-empowerment is a good way of taking on fear.

I'm interested to know how we should deal with shitty male behavior in public... maybe we could use culture and religion or the law to "modify male behavior"? How should this be done in the correct way toggle?

 

[toggle]

Whilst recognising that self-defence training is not the solution, I do see it as one of the ways that could help prepare us to fight back. There certainly needs to be a lot more arse-kicking than currently goes on. Being prepared to make a loud scene, with groups of people being ready to surround men who abuse women in public, is another method. As well as learning to be afraid, we're so often taught not to 'make a fuss', to keep quiet, feel ashamed and blame ourselves. It's the men who do this that should be made to feel humiliated.

and since when have people responded positively to women 'making a scene' rather than trying to further humiliate them?

and seriously, the chance you're going to achieve anyhting against a stronger and physically larger opponent unless you've had a significant amount of training is fairly low. expecting a result needs several years worth of commitment to training, another burden women have to carry when people tell them they have to be responsible for protecting themselves. it's just another of those thigns women get told they should do rather than expecting men to exhibit some self control.

 

[toggle]

Well I was being tongue-in-cheek with that one, but in principal yes I believe that self-empowerment is a good way of taking on fear.

I'm interested to know how we should deal with shitty male behavior in public... maybe we could use culture and religion or the law to "modify male behavior"? How should this be done in the correct way toggle?

why is it such a problem that men should be expected to modify their behavior rather than women?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

and seriously, the chance you're going to achieve anyhting against a stronger and physically larger opponent unless you've had a significant amount of training is fairly low.

Yes, this is absolutely correct, especially when you get into grappling range. I actually think the idea that women should learn martial arts to defend themselves against men is potentially dangerous. Best thing to do is, if at all possible, to run. Perhaps a smash in the nuts, then run, but nothing much more complex than that.

The most valuable thing martial arts training may give you is increased awareness so that you may become aware of the danger in time to make your escape.

 

[toggle]

Yes, this is absolutely correct, especially when you get into grappling range. I actually think the idea that women should learn martial arts to defend themselves against men is potentially dangerous. Best thing to do is, if at all possible, to run. Perhaps a smash in the nuts, then run, but nothing much more complex than that.

The most valuable thing martial arts training may give you is increased awareness so that you may become aware of the danger in time to make your escape.

unfoirtunately, the most effective safety advice you could give to women is to never ever trust anyone. because most are attacked by someone they trust well enough to have chosen to be alone with. seeing as arseholes who are at best, ignorant about consent don't tattoo it on their forehead and women need to be able to live their lives, to work, to socialise, to simply exist outside of locked rooms, then a lot of women will still be at risk, even with the best laid plans and best considered defenses. there is a risk with any advice it moves from 'this is best practice' to 'why didn't you' even in situations where that action wasn't apropriate.

and fwiw, when i got taught some self defence, the stuff I got taught was stuff that if i used it was going to be instantly incapacitating, potentially permanently injuring or killing. you're going to be a long way down the road into martial arts training before you're going to learn that off an instructor and you also need to be able to decide if you can live with the consequences of that. i also know that learning this stuff isn't any protection against 'the fear' striking.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

and fwiw, when i got taught some self defence, the stuff I got taught was stuff that if i used it was going to be instantly incapacitating, potentially permanently injuring or killing. .

There's no nice way to stop someone who is attacking you from attacking you. Best way to stop them is to kill them. I don't know much about self-defence courses, tbh, but the harsh reality is that there is not really such a thing. You don't defend, you attack. Smash around the ear, in the eyes or in the nuts.

And you're right about wondering what may happen in a real situation with real fear. I have trained in martial arts for 15 years, but really I have no idea how useful any of it would be outside of that controlled environment. Hopefully I will never find out.

But yeah, this is no answer really. No answer at all. I see it as analogous to the idea in places like the US that you should get yourself a gun. There is a very real danger of escalation and making a bad situation even worse.

 

[equationgirl]

Rape Crisis Scotland had to be forced by the government to accept male rape victims. Their logo has a womans symbol and today people say their support for men is pretty shoddy.

Rape is almost always portrayed as a "feminist" or "womans" issue and even bringing up male rape can be contentious. Even this study only asks men.

Please provide links for your claims.

 

[equationgirl]

This is from the Rape Crisis Scotland website, under one of their old campaigns:

The Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009 reformed previous legislation for sexual offences, broadening the definition of rape and creating a range of new offences. The Act also defined consent in statute for the first time, and outlined a range of circumstances in which consent cannot be considered to be present, including when a victim is asleep or unconscious, or intoxicated through alcohol or other substances. Also for the first time under the new Act, is the possibility for male victims to bring charges of rape.

Perhaps it wasn't that male victims weren't supported but under the terms of the funding arrangement with the Scottish Government they could only support victims of crime, and that if men couldn't bring criminal charges then they couldn't be supported by Rape Crisis Scotland?

 

[toggle]

There's no nice way to stop someone who is attacking you from attacking you. Best way to stop them is to kill them. I don't know much about self-defence courses, tbh, but the harsh reality is that there is not really such a thing. You don't defend, you attack. Smash around the ear, in the eyes or in the nuts.

And you're right about wondering what may happen in a real situation with real fear. I have trained in martial arts for 15 years, but really I have no idea how useful any of it would be outside of that controlled environment. Hopefully I will never find out.

But yeah, this is no answer really. No answer at all. I see it as analogous to the idea in places like the US that you should get yourself a gun. There is a very real danger of escalation and making a bad situation even worse.

the other factor to consider is that a self defence course or a few months of karate is worth not much in practice, except perhaps as a way to encourage risk taking because of false confidence. while that confidence can be fantastic is you're a fan of the idea that women have to behave like wasps so rapists don't target them, (IIRC, discussed on gamergate thread?) it can mean trouble cause someon thinks they can handle anything/anyone.

 

[bluescreen]

the other factor to consider is that a self defence course or a few months of karate is worth not much in practice, except perhaps as a way to encourage risk taking because of false confidence. while that confidence can be fantastic is you're a fan of the idea that women have to behave like wasps so rapists don't target them, (IIRC, discussed on gamergate thread?) it can mean trouble cause someon thinks they can handle anything/anyone.

I wish some of the energy spent on teaching women self-defence could be deployed in teaching young men not to act as such sexually entitled gits. And boys! Especially boys. (Not holding out much hope for older men.)

 

[camouflage]

why is it such a problem that men should be expected to modify their behavior rather than women?

I didn't say it was a problem that men should modify their behaviour instead of women. But to get back to your suggestion about making people modify their behaviour... what approach should we take?

 

[camouflage]

Yes, this is absolutely correct, especially when you get into grappling range. I actually think the idea that women should learn martial arts to defend themselves against men is potentially dangerous. Best thing to do is, if at all possible, to run. Perhaps a smash in the nuts, then run, but nothing much more complex than that.

The most valuable thing martial arts training may give you is increased awareness so that you may become aware of the danger in time to make your escape.

Krav Maga is not any form of art. It's about getting away. I'm not trying to advertise mind.

 

[equationgirl]

the other factor to consider is that a self defence course or a few months of karate is worth not much in practice, except perhaps as a way to encourage risk taking because of false confidence. while that confidence can be fantastic is you're a fan of the idea that women have to behave like wasps so rapists don't target them, (IIRC, discussed on gamergate thread?) it can mean trouble cause someon thinks they can handle anything/anyone.

A lot of the time self defense courses don't overcome what a woman's natural instinct is. You can still take a defence course and not be prepared when someone attacks you.

One of the most useful things my parents ever did was to not prevent me from be a tomboy. I would fight with my brothers as all kids do. But my instinct is to fight. That said, it's never been tested in a rape situation, and it has also been shown that some rapists get off on the fight. Basically what works for one woman to get out of a rape situation may not work for another. All any of us can do is try to do our best in that situation, our best to stay alive and come through it.

And yes, it was discussed on the gamergate thread.

 

[equationgirl]

Krav Maga is not any form of art. It's about getting away. I'm not trying to advertise mind.

I thought it was developed by the israeli army as hand-to-hand combat technique?

 

[ferrelhadley]

Please provide links for your claims.

A GROUP which deals with victims of rape and sexual abuse was asked to leave its Scottish network – because it refused to stop dealing with male clients.
Central Scotland's Rape Crisis and Sexual Abuse Centre, which covers the Falkirk area, was disaffiliated from its umbrella organisation last year.
Staff have stressed it will not affect the valuable work they carry out with both sexes and its base in Stirling remains open.
However, they are keen to secure more funding, with centre manager Cathy Steele claiming they receive some of the lowest local authority grants.
The Rape Crisis Scotland network is made up of centres that provide free confidential support and information for females who have experienced any form of sexual violence at any time in their lives.

http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/local-news/rape-groups-split-over-help-for-male-victims-1-298603

Rape support group 'ignoring male victims'

"I attended the Crichton Hospital in Dumfries, which offers help for people with psychological problems, but I took an overdose. They didn't know how to deal with me."

He was put in touch with the South West Rape Crisis and Sexual Abuse Centre in Dumfries - which is not part of the national Rape Crisis network. It is one of the few organisations to really help male rape victims. Alan says he "would never have approached them myself because I thought it was for women. What I like about coming here is all the staff are female. I don't trust men and wouldn't contact a local gay organisation for help."

He said Rape Crisis discriminated against men, and that he would be dead without the Dumfries group's support.

More and more men are now starting to come forward to report being the victim of a sex crime. The rise in the numbers of men seeking counselling for attacks accounts for almost 5% of all referrals to the South West Rape Crisis and Sexual Abuse Centre.

Director Iraina McGroarty said the centre has not been a member of the national Rape Crisis network since it was asked to leave several years ago, following a dispute about its decision to offer support to men. None of its current female users has objected to men using their Dumfries counselling suites.

"The Rape Crisis network does not currently support men and we are not their partners,"

Male rape was only recognised under Scots law in the past 12 years.

But the attacks have also sparked intensive debate about Scotland's sex crime laws. Male rape is still not recognised under Scottish law. The definition of rape, set out in 1844, states it is an offence that can only be carried out by a man against a woman.

The English legal system has recognised male rape for seven years but in Scotland the offence has to be classed as a sexual assault or sodomy. No official statistics are collected so the offence is largely kept out of the public eye.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/oct/12/ukcrime

How the fuck did I get to be the "bad person" for bringing up male victims of sexual violence? I actually feel disgusted.


Something does not feel right here.

 

[bluescreen]

You're OK, weatherman.
It's a sensitive issue among feminists because there is so much "what about the menz?" Imo male rape is a serious issue and shouldn't ever be regarded as something that has to compete for attention. Maybe, since this thread is about male university students raping females, there needs to be a separate thread?

http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/local-news/rape-groups-split-over-help-for-male-victims-1-298603

Rape support group 'ignoring male victims'



Male rape was only recognised under Scots law in the past 12 years.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/oct/12/ukcrime

How the fuck did I get to be the "bad person" for bringing up male victims of sexual violence? I actually feel disgusted.


Something does not feel right here.

 

[equationgirl]

ferrelhadley no-one is saying you are a bad person for bringing up the subject of male rape, but perhaps it's content better suited to another thread where the topic can be properly addressed without being lost in a discussion about female rape.

The 2013-14 Rape Crisis Scotland annual report can be found here:
http://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/workspace/publications/RCS_annual_report_13-14.pdf

p14 states that 2% of the clients contacting their services are male.

 

[ViolentPanda]

http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/local-news/rape-groups-split-over-help-for-male-victims-1-298603

Rape support group 'ignorinso
male victims'



Male rape was only recognised under Scots law in the past 12 years.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/oct/12/ukcrime

How the fuck did I get to be the "bad person" for bringing up male victims of sexual violence? I actually feel disgusted.


Something does not feel right here.

Yes, your honesty.
Your original accusation was directed at Rape Crisis Scotland. Your evidence pertains to a single constituent member organisation of Rape Crisis Scotland.
You're either stupid or disingenuous, perhaps both, you poor little martyr, you.

 

[bluescreen]

Yes, your honesty.
Your original accusation was directed at Rape Crisis Scotland. Your evidence pertains to a single constituent member organisation of Rape Crisis Scotland.
You're either stupid or disingenuous, perhaps both, you poor little martyr, you.

Maybe go easy if we don't know someone's personal situation?

 

[toggle]

I didn't say it was a problem that men should modify their behaviour instead of women. But to get back to your suggestion about making people modify their behaviour... what approach should we take?

education?

threw up some of this on another thread tonight, but I reckon the people who might have an answer to this will be the blokes who stopped being arseholes. what made them listen. that's why i'm more interested in the follow up to this research which i'm hoping will be focussed on the attitudes of the men who rape (or think it is ok to rape) without thinking they are rapists and how they respnded to the 'debriefing'

 

[equationgirl]

The violence and gender paper would have been better served including some questions determining each respondents attitudes towards women as well as the questions about rape. I think that would have yielded some strong correlations between attitudes towards women and rape.

 

[equationgirl]

Maybe go easy if we don't know someone's personal situation?

Have to agree with this. Rape is an emotive subject and we should all perhaps be more mindful of others on this thread.

The exception being if someone is being an utter dickhead of course, which I don't think ferrelhadley has been.

 

[toggle]

The violence and gender paper would have been better served including some questions determining each respondents attitudes towards women as well as the questions about rape. I think that would have yielded some strong correlations between attitudes towards women and rape.

iirc, they stated that they asked some questions in that area as part of the program, but they didn't detail any of that. tis why i always end up yelling at social ssciences papers. cause they never answer all the other questions

 

[equationgirl]

iirc, they stated that they asked some questions in that area as part of the program, but they didn't detail any of that. tis why i always end up yelling at social ssciences papers. cause they never answer all the other questions

It would also be helpful if they published a copy of the questionnaire as an appendix to the paper, which doesn't happen often either.

Without the questions I find it hard to assess their conclusions and degree of bias.

 

[toggle]

It would also be helpful if they published a copy of the questionnaire as an appendix to the paper, which doesn't happen often either.

Without the questions I find it hard to assess their conclusions and degree of bias.

i'd suspect between the two of us we could sit here all night moaning about what they did wring and what they missed out.

 

[Jezebelle]

and since when have people responded positively to women 'making a scene' rather than trying to further humiliate them?

and seriously, the chance you're going to achieve anyhting against a stronger and physically larger opponent unless you've had a significant amount of training is fairly low. expecting a result needs several years worth of commitment to training, another burden women have to carry when people tell them they have to be responsible for protecting themselves. it's just another of those thigns women get told they should do rather than expecting men to exhibit some self control.

I wasn't claiming that people do usually respond positively to women who make a scene. I was arguing that's one of the things that urgently needs to change, but thought that was clear? I also believe it's up to individual women to decide if training in self-defence is something they wish to pursue. If it's not a useful skill to have, then why do lots of people bother to learn it? There are women with no background in self-defence who have managed to fight off their attacker. Guess their survival instinct must have kicked in. Of course, the experience still leaves them highly traumatised.

 

[equationgirl]

I wasn't claiming that people do usually respond positively to women who make a scene. I was arguing that's one of the things that urgently needs to change, but thought that was clear? I also believe it's up to individual women to decide if training in self-defence is something they wish to pursue. If it's not a useful skill to have, then why do lots of people bother to learn it? There are women with no background in self-defence who have managed to fight off their attacker. Guess their survival instinct must have kicked in. Of course, the experience still leaves them highly traumatised.

The self-defence question is also a difficult one I think. It is useful but how confident are people about using it, especially in public? Overcoming the decades of social conditioning that a woman shouldn't make a fuss or a scene is really difficult.

There's no right or wrong answer to this.

 

[weltweit]

I too would like to see the actual questions because I find the published results a little incomprehensible.

eta: "incomprehensible" is perhaps not the right word, stunning or unlikely even might have been better words.

 

[equationgirl]

I too would like to see the actual questions because I find the published results a little incomprehensible.

eta: "incomprehensible" is perhaps not the right word, stunning or unlikely even might have been better words.

A common problem with social science publications, the method isn't clearly stated so you just get the results. One half of the equation basically.

 

[toggle]

A common problem with social science publications, the method isn't clearly stated so you just get the results. One half of the equation basically.

probably still more comprehensible to you than 'i went and read the most likely bundles of paperwork and then wrote up the interesting bits', only i'm not actually going to do anyhting other than say 'here's the interesting stuff i read'