A celebration of Feminism - as a female what has it meant for you?

[8ball]

The thread title literally specifies woman.

<tempted by pedantry opportunity but CBA with all that shit again>

 

[Cloo]

I want to celebrate Feminism as showing - and enabling - my three kids, all girls, that they can do anything in their lives that they put their minds to, and that their career choices are not defined by what's in their pants.

I want to, bit I don't think I can - I think that actually the credit for that goes to them being middle class, and the female role models around them who are middle class: Headteachers, senior military officers, department head at GCHQ, a surgeon, an airline pilot.

Discuss...

I suppose an answer to that might be that feminism is what enabled those female role models to be in those roles!

 

[kebabking]

I suppose an answer to that might be that feminism is what enabled those female role models to be in those roles!

That's very true, but here's the problem with that as a 'Feminism for all women' thing - Feminism (in the career sense) has undoubtedly worked (to whatever degree you might think) for middle class women, but if it's only really worked for middle class women, and had little impact for working class women, is it really Feminism, or is it something within the mechanics of the middle class?

My interest isn't particularly ideological, it's more that I'd quite like my children to be able to make their way through life without one foot nailed to the floor by dint of the arrangement of their genitals - one reads the various Feminism threads, along with the Sofa thread, with a feeling of horror at what may lie ahead of them - but then I look at the lives of the women around me, who are overwhelmingly middle class, from middle class backgrounds, and they seem very different to some of the experiences related in those threads, and I wonder if the Feminism that has enabled them to go to university, and get good jobs in good careers, is a (ish) middle class thing, not a women thing, on the basis that an 'all women' thing that doesn't apply to the majority(?) of women, isn't an 'all women' thing at all..

Disjointed, confused, but you get what I'm saying?

 

[polly]

I get what you're saying, kebabking, and I think you're talking about liberal feminism or white feminism. The drive for women to be brought level with their counterparts in the current social order, ie white middle class women achieving parity with white middle class men. As opposed to inclusive or intersectional feminism, which tries to address the other inequalities that women might face. I'm too hungover to say more

 

[eoin_k]

I guess there are only so many senior management roles at GCHQ. Not every school girl will be able to go on to run a state surveillance apparatus.

 

[kebabking]

I guess there are only so many senior management roles at GCHQ. Not every school girl will be able to go on to run a state surveillance apparatus.

Talented friends...

 

[eoin_k]

Talented friends...

Eh?

 

[Treacle Toes]

I guess there are only so many senior management roles at GCHQ. Not every school girl will be able to go on to run a state surveillance apparatus.

I find it a bit of a weird assumption that every girl would want to tbh. I wouldn't be surprised if most didn't want to tbh.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I want to celebrate Feminism as showing - and enabling - my three kids, all girls, that they can do anything in their lives that they put their minds to, and that their career choices are not defined by what's in their pants.

I want to, bit I don't think I can - I think that actually the credit for that goes to them being middle class, and the female role models around them who are middle class: Headteachers, senior military officers, department head at GCHQ, a surgeon, an airline pilot.

Discuss...

I wonder how you are measuring success. You seem to have a clear idea about what kinds of jobs 'mean' success.
Isn't it more relative than that? ...and is it feminism if our 'ideals' are merely conforming to the status quo?

 

[Pickman's model]

That's very true, but here's the problem with that as a 'Feminism for all women' thing - Feminism (in the career sense) has undoubtedly worked (to whatever degree you might think) for middle class women, but if it's only really worked for middle class women, and had little impact for working class women, is it really Feminism, or is it something within the mechanics of the middle class?

My interest isn't particularly ideological, it's more that I'd quite like my children to be able to make their way through life without one foot nailed to the floor by dint of the arrangement of their genitals - one reads the various Feminism threads, along with the Sofa thread, with a feeling of horror at what may lie ahead of them - but then I look at the lives of the women around me, who are overwhelmingly middle class, from middle class backgrounds, and they seem very different to some of the experiences related in those threads, and I wonder if the Feminism that has enabled them to go to university, and get good jobs in good careers, is a (ish) middle class thing, not a women thing, on the basis that an 'all women' thing that doesn't apply to the majority(?) of women, isn't an 'all women' thing at all..

Disjointed, confused, but you get what I'm saying?

i see what you're getting at, but i wouldn't be surprised if many of the things which afflict working class women affected the women you hold up as success stories too. for example, the 'double shift' of paid work out and then unpaid labour at home.

 

[eoin_k]

I guess there are only so many senior management roles at GCHQ. Not every school girl [ETA: who wants to] will be able to go on to run a state surveillance apparatus.

 

[friendofdorothy]

You also now strangely use trans issues to do that hating too. You repeatedly post on these threads twisting shit up and calling people bigots when they aren't. You've nothing positive to add, just contempt.

Yet it's me who's the entitled one right?

Yes quite. I feel as if some posters here are deliberately shit stirring on all the feminist threads and I wonder why. My ideas so far are:

1. They like to filibuster, subvert and change the subject - Its as if they don't want anyone to actually have the opportunity to focus on the actual subject of the thread.
   
   
2. it's typical divide and rule tactics - to enphasise what ever is controversion, to cause and fuel argument.
   
   
3. They have so much time on their hands because they don't do much (posting on the bosses time perhaps or not having caring responsibilities maybe)
   
   
4. or perhaps more simply they are just arseholes and dickheads and not worth talking to.

 

[yield]

Not that I've disrupted anything. I always thought I was a feminist but the threads here have shown how wrong I was.

Taught me a lot that I hope now is ingrained. Thanks all.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I've been thinking about the femisinism of my youth a lot lately. As a girl I was brought up at a time when girls were lesser beings, it was very much a mans world. I was expected to be chaste, quiet and obedient. Women could legally be paid less, refused entry, denied service, beaten and raped by their husbands. Hetrosexual marriage was expected of everyone, with women being viewed as a chattel with ownership passing from father to husband.

well FUCK THAT.

To me it was about rejecting the inequalities I was brought up with, to be independant and fully human. I've befitted from the bravery of women before me to helped changed the world we now have. It shaped me and I'd like to celebrate that.

Womens liberation and gay liberation was supposed to be everyones liberation. I beleive the strict legal and social enforcement of sexual and gender stereotypes is bad for everyone.

Things might have changed alot over my lifetime but when I hear how women are still insulted, abused and ignored. I say things have not changed enough yet.

 

[yield]

Womens liberation and gay liberation was supposed to be everyones liberation. I beleive the strict legal and social enforcement of sexual and gender stereotypes is bad for everyone.

Things might have changed alot over my lifetime but when I hear how women are still insulted, abused and ignored. I say things have not changed enough yet.

Cause AND Effect though innit. In our blatant patriarchy how and why are we made this way?

Ultimately the slave and master dialectic doesn't favour me? I'm deprived of recognition and given a facsimile. That's the male gaze. Alone.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Cause AND Effect though innit. In our blatant patriarchy how and why are we made this way?

Ultimately the slave and master dialectic doesn't favour me? I'm deprived of recognition and given a facsimile. That's the male gaze. Alone.

I don't understand your meaning. What is your answer to the two questions you pose. who is alone? Can you expand.

 

[Gramsci]

What do you think is worth celebrating about feminism? What does it mean to you?

I've posted on the Feminist theory thread for example sympathetic review of the Feminism for the 99%. Reading that short but to the point book yes that is the kind of Feminism Id celebrate.

So yes I think the some Feminist theory/practise is worth celebrating.

The OP by judith is clear she celebrates some aspects of Feminism but not others.

She states tha Dworkin is worth reading.

Previously when asked she has said her namesake Judith Butler ( a feminist theorist I rate) talks bollox.

So what kind of Feminism one celebrates is the the real issue.

Re reading the OP and its clear what the OP sees as the kind of Feminism worth celebrating.

Any other is not to be celebrated. That's her view. Fair enough. The OP is not a neutral start to a thread. It puts forward a position by the original poster of her view of Feminism.

Feminism cover a wide range of views and not all are going to be in agreement .

 

[Treacle Toes]

I really don't understand why on this thread there is the expectation that we all have the same views as the OP or we can't post meaningfully. Since when did any urban thread conform in that way? Has there ever been just one way of seeing or relating to anything that affects so many of us?

 

[Gramsci]

I really don't understand why on this thread there is the expectation that we all have the same views as the OP or we can't post meaningfully. Since when did any urban thread conform in that way? Has there ever been just one way of seeing or relating to anything that affects so many of us?

If you are referring to my post I've never made that expectation.

I was answering your question in relation to the OP.

Re reading the OP and its not just straight forward question.

 

[friendofdorothy]

So what kind of Feminism one celebrates is the the real issue.

Re reading the OP and its clear what the OP sees as the kind of Feminism worth celebrating.

Any other is not to be celebrated. That's her view. Fair enough. The OP is not a neutral start to a thread. It puts forward a position by the original poster of her view of Feminism.

Feminism cover a wide range of views and not all are going to be in agreement .

I don't think feminism has to be broken down into this type or that type of feminism. Why are you trying empahasise differences to divide us?

Rebecca west said: 'I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.'

 

[Edie]

Best thing about these feminist threads has been really seeing another side to some impressive urban women speak up. friendofdorothy comes to mind, as does campanula and definitely RubyToogood and mango5

I <3 them.

 

[Treacle Toes]

If you are referring to my post I've never made that expectation.

Not only in reference to you no but as well as others who keep tagging or referring to Judith as if she is monolithic. The feminist discussion, trans discussion and all levels of agreement and disagreement of both existed on this site before we she joined. Just like our individual experiences and celebrations of feminism, or not, did before she arrived here...so the. constant references to her are wearing thin.....

 

[Gramsci]

I don't think feminism has to be broken down into this type or that type of feminism. Why are you trying empahasise differences to divide us?

Rebecca west said: 'I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.'

I'm not emphasisisng differences.

Feminism like other political movements has a wide range of different standpoints and views.

This is the theory and philosophy section of Urban. So fair enough to discuss it.

 

[Gramsci]

Not only in reference to you no but as well as others who keep tagging or referring to Judith as if she is monolithic. The feminist discussion, trans discussion and all levels of agreement and disagreement of both existed on this site before we she joined. Just like our individual experiences and celebrations of feminism, or not, did before she arrived here...so the. constant references to her are wearing thin.....

So thats the answer to my post 145 here.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Best thing about these feminist threads has been really seeing another side to some impressive urban women speak up. friendofdorothy comes to mind, as does campanula and definitely RubyToogood and mango5

I <3 them.

Thanks love the impressive tag. I'd love to really get into what feminist theory more means now without people telling me its not needed, is ID politics, is pro/anti trans, yadda yadda yadda. I've enjoyed the feminist discussion lately.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'm not emphasisisng differences.

Feminism like other political movements has a wide range of different standpoints and views.

This is the theory and philosophy section of Urban. So fair enough to discuss it.

yes lets discuss - but how is this not emphasising differences:

So what kind of Feminism one celebrates is the the real issue.

Re reading the OP and its clear what the OP sees as the kind of Feminism worth celebrating.

Any other is not to be celebrated. That's her view. Fair enough. The OP is not a neutral start to a thread. It puts forward a position by the original poster of her view of Feminism.

Feminism cover a wide range of views and not all are going to be in agreement .

People with differing political and feminist views can still unite in fighting the oppression of all women.

Women who have never read a single feminist polemic can still celebrate feminist ideas.

 

[Edie]

Thanks love the impressive tag. I'd love to really get into what feminist theory more means now without people telling me its not needed, is ID politics, is pro/anti trans, yadda yadda yadda. I've enjoyed the feminist discussion lately.

You really have a wealth of experience x

Also, you remind us of a time when women were unapologetically second class citizens. In YOUR lifetime. That’s important not to forget.

 

[Gramsci]

yes lets discuss - but how is this not emphasising differences:

People with differing political and feminist views can still unite in fighting the oppression of all women.

Women who have never read a single feminist polemic can still celebrate feminist ideas.

So how do you read the OP?

The OP presents an opinion on feminism as a movement. Makes clear what that poster agrees with and doesnt agree with.

 

[ginger_syn]

Not only in reference to you no but as well as others who keep tagging or referring to Judith as if she is monolithic. The feminist discussion, trans discussion and all levels of agreement and disagreement of both existed on this site before we she joined. Just like our individual experiences and celebrations of feminism, or not, did before she arrived here...so the. constant references to her are wearing thin.....

But she has left a pervading sense of hostility and distain and certainly her response to me on the other thread have made me less than keen to engage on this thread in anything more than a general way, but one thing i celebrate about feminism is that my granddaughters will not have the same issues that i did growing up.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Not only in reference to you no but as well as others who keep tagging or referring to Judith as if she is monolithic. The feminist discussion, trans discussion and all levels of agreement and disagreement of both existed on this site before we she joined. Just like our individual experiences and celebrations of feminism, or not, did before she arrived here...so the. constant references to her are wearing thin.....

Well said.

I've enjoyed how JudithB feminist threads have rekindled the whole debate here. I've always been disappointed that all previous feminist themed threads here ended in a row or drowned in a tidal wave of blokes moaning, but I'm pleased that recent debates are still going. We don't all agree with everthing we all say, but we can unify in our oppression.