A celebration of Feminism - as a female what has it meant for you?

[Poot]

I get scared away because I'm not well read on the subject of feminism during these discussions, which is bonkers when you think about it because when you are seeing from the very inside of the oppression, you have a unique view anyway, and are likely to have formed many opinions over the years, regardless of which books you've read.

I still continue to be educated on these threads, however. And I can appreciate different views that were formed during experiences that were different to my own, even if I don't share them. That's what I'm finding most valuable.

 

[friendofdorothy]

So how do you read the OP?

Obviously I was replying to the thread title and this part of the OP:

I cannot say enough times how thrilled and honoured I am to find a place where women are engaging in topics that concern them.

Let's devote a thread to the sisterhood and what feminism has done and continues to shape and support you as a female person.

When I first discovered feminism it was a light bulb moment of realisation that I am a person and a human being that is separate from men. That there is a movement out there for me and people like me. I devoured what I could and looked for like minded women. It was a fantastic feeling to think we could change the world into something fairer for all by bringing the needs of women into sharp focus. I could be unashamedly female.

I rather lost focus after the mention of intersectionality.

The OP presents an opinion on feminism as a movement. Makes clear what that poster agrees with and doesnt agree with.

As she is entitled to so, as she clearly states these are her opinions and why she celebrates femininism.

I am allowed to state why I celebrate feminism without presenting my opinions on the whole movement and without stating who/what I agree/disagree with.

I respect your polical veiws and general pro feminist posts in general - but I think you are picking the opinions of women posting here with realising that you're emphasising diffences between us? It is classic divide and rule whether you are intending to do this or not.

 

[Gramsci]

Obviously I was replying to the thread title and this part of the OP:
I rather lost focus after the mention of intersectionality.


As she is entitled to so, as she clearly states these are her opinions and why she celebrates femininism.

I am allowed to state why I celebrate feminism without presenting my opinions on the whole movement and without stating who/what I agree/disagree with.

I respect your polical veiws and general pro feminist posts in general - but I think you are picking the opinions of women posting here with realising that you're emphasising diffences between us? It is classic divide and rule whether you are intending to do this or not.

I said she is entitled to have her views.

As I've said this is the theory section of Urban. Its for discussion.

So what you are saying is that I'm undermining discussion of Feminism here. When I'm doing nothing of the sort.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I get scared away because I'm not well read on the subject of feminism during these discussions, which is bonkers when you think about it because when you are seeing from the very inside of the oppression, you have a unique view anyway, and are likely to have formed many opinions over the years, regardless of which books you've read.

I still continue to be educated on these threads, however. And I can appreciate different views that were formed during experiences that were different to my own, even if I don't share them. That's what I'm finding most valuable.

Me too! Men, no matter how well read or how educated they are, cannot know what it is like to cope with the everyday sexist shit women have to put up with, as you say women see the oppression from the inside.

As I understand it feminism never had a leader or a spokeswomen - it was a mass movement and was (well should have been) for all women. It isn't about how well read we are or which authors we agree /disagree with - we are women and having endured a life time of discrimination we are our own experts. I've learned more from listening to other women than from books. We have never all agreed with each other and that isn't humanly possible.

That said, I'm interested in reading and learning more.

 

[mango5]

Wow Gramsci your answer to what would you celebrate is "some Feminist theory" followed by criticism of JudithB. What are you trying to achieve by telling us what the "real issue" is? Actually don't answer, it's irrelevant.

I'm not really inclined to post on this thread because I'm put off by "as a female" in the title and also because I don't feel remotely celebratory about the shitty situation we are in. I feel beseiged. I don't care whether that complies with the OP or not.

So it's nice to read other more positive perspectives. And thank you Edie for the shout-out

 

[Gramsci]

Wow Gramsci your answer to what would you celebrate is "some Feminist theory" followed by criticism of JudithB. What are you trying to achieve by telling us what the "real issue" is? Actually don't answer, it's irrelevant.

If you don't want me to answer posts please don't link me in a post.

 

[mango5]

You're making a lot of rules here Gramsci. Post as you wish.

 

[Gramsci]

You're making a lot of rules here Gramsci. Post as you wish.

I'm not making any rules here.

You don't want me to answer. So I'm politely asking you not to link me into posts.

 

[mango5]

I said it wasn't worth answering that question. Certainly I think your response would be as irrelevant as most of your posts on these threads. But I wouldn't want to fall foul of the 'don't talk to/about people without tagging them' convention favoured by some folk round these parts (can't remember who, but it does make some sense, especially in a direct response).

 

[Treacle Toes]

I get scared away because I'm not well read on the subject of feminism during these discussions, which is bonkers when you think about it because when you are seeing from the very inside of the oppression, you have a unique view anyway, and are likely to have formed many opinions over the years, regardless of which books you've read.

I still continue to be educated on these threads, however. And I can appreciate different views that were formed during experiences that were different to my own, even if I don't share them. That's what I'm finding most valuable.

Poot I know what you mean as I haven't read half of what I would like to this subject and so many others. I just don't have the time, for years now my work has involved supporting and advocating for people in crisis of one kind or another, so I find it leaves me needing to empty my head rather than filling it with more! That doesn't mean we have nothing to offer these discussions though, the theory comes from people's actual experiences, something we all have a lot of... These are important discussions. My hope is the reaction to them can become less defensive so that we're not frustrated or chased off to have them in private, if at all.

 

[JudithB]

I've posted on the Feminist theory thread for example sympathetic review of the Feminism for the 99%. Reading that short but to the point book yes that is the kind of Feminism Id celebrate.

So yes I think the some Feminist theory/practise is worth celebrating.

The OP by judith is clear she celebrates some aspects of Feminism but not others.

She states tha Dworkin is worth reading.

Previously when asked she has said her namesake Judith Butler ( a feminist theorist I rate) talks bollox.

So what kind of Feminism one celebrates is the the real issue.

Re reading the OP and its clear what the OP sees as the kind of Feminism worth celebrating.

Any other is not to be celebrated. That's her view. Fair enough. The OP is not a neutral start to a thread. It puts forward a position by the original poster of her view of Feminism.

Feminism cover a wide range of views and not all are going to be in agreement .

I am dismissive of Judith Butler because I am dismissive of Queer Theory in general. Male violence does not disappear because we queer gender etc. The patriarchial power structure does not disappear because we queer gender roles.

There is no right way to be a feminist but there are ways we can all better centre female people in our cause. How one achieves that is up to the individual.

 

[Gramsci]

I am dismissive of Judith Butler because I am dismissive of Queer Theory in general. Male violence does not disappear because we queer gender etc. The patriarchial power structure does not disappear because we queer gender roles.

There is no right way to be a feminist but there are ways we can all better centre female people in our cause. How one achieves that is up to the individual.

So your impying Judith Butler isn't a feminist. She is a Queer theorist. Sounds to me like your are saying their is a right way to be a feminist.

On Butler. It has been quite some time since I read Gender Trouble. So been trying to read up a bit more.

I found this article very useful. A bit old and from a Marxist viewpoint but very sympathetic.

This rings true to me::

any Marxists have interpreted the rise of poststructuralism as part of an intellectuals’ retreat from politics, after the movements of the 1960s waned.6 A useful broad analysis, it doesn’t fit feminism so well. In the philosophical and sociological mainstream, many academics who had embraced Marxism in the 1960s converted to poststructuralism at the end of the 1970s. But in feminism it was different. Even in Britain, where socialist feminism was relatively strong, by the 1970s ‘as the movement progressed, it was clear that the socialist ideas were losing out’.7 They were replaced by radical feminism, which insisted on a rigid patriarchy theory dividing men and women, with class struggle a boring quarrel between men. So poststructuralist feminism, which developed in the 1980s, should be seen as primarily reacting against radical feminism rather than Marxism. Because of this, Butler continues to stress that she is ‘absolutely not’ interested in separation.

At the time I was in relationship with a feminist. Once she started a relationship with me she lost a whole section of her Feminist friends as she had chosen a relationship with a man. They were from the Radical feminist section of Feminism. Didn't put her off Feminism. but it was very hurtful for her. She still had feminist friends who didn't treat her in that way. I still have contact with her now. But for me when I hear the word Patriarchy or dismissing Butler as just a Queer theorist I remember what happened to my partner of the time.


In perspective: Judith Butler – InternationalSSocialism

I agree with most of the article. Its not uncritical.


Imo changing gender roles could help to reduce violence against women by undermining traditional patriarchal attitudes. So Butler is relevant.

 

[Treacle Toes]

So your impying Judith Butler isn't a feminist. She is a Queer theorist. Sounds to me like your are saying their is a right way to be a feminist.

eH?

I am dismissive of Judith Butler because I am dismissive of Queer Theory in general.....
There is no right way to be a feminist but there are ways we can all better centre female people in our cause.

Can you give this a rest please Gramsci ...I don't agree with JB on some things but this nonsense reading of what she posts is boiling my piss.

 

[Humberto]

It's not all about horrible men. At the end of the day you need to find cause with the right people rather than be deceived by Identity Politics. That's how I see it, others will disagree. It IS new ground, but shallow identicism is rubbish and a dead end.

 

[ginger_syn]

So your impying Judith Butler isn't a feminist. She is a Queer theorist. Sounds to me like your are saying their is a right way to be a feminist.

On Butler. It has been quite some time since I read Gender Trouble. So been trying to read up a bit more.

I found this article very useful. A bit old and from a Marxist viewpoint but very sympathetic.

This rings true to me::


At the time I was in relationship with a feminist. Once she started a relationship with me she lost a whole section of her Feminist friends as she had chosen a relationship with a man. They were from the Radical feminist section of Feminism. Didn't put her off Feminism. but it was very hurtful for her. She still had feminist friends who didn't treat her in that way. I still have contact with her now. But for me when I hear the word Patriarchy or dismissing Butler as just a Queer theorist I remember what happened to my partner of the time.


In perspective: Judith Butler – InternationalSSocialism

I agree with most of the article. Its not uncritical.


Imo changing gender roles could help to reduce violence against women by undermining traditional patriarchal attitudes. So Butler is relevant.

Cheers for the link.

 

[Pickman's model]

eH?




Can you give this a rest please Gramsci ...I don't agree with JB on some things but this nonsense reading of what she posts is boiling my piss.

And we can't have your piss boiled... It's plain that while for JudithB there's no right way to be a feminist (and tbh her own views are er rather idiosyncratic) there are some ways that are wronger than others, and dismissing Judith butler for her use of queer theory does suggest that she's also dismissing any insights butler obtained through her use of qt.

 

[TopCat]

So your impying Judith Butler isn't a feminist. She is a Queer theorist. Sounds to me like your are saying their is a right way to be a feminist.

On Butler. It has been quite some time since I read Gender Trouble. So been trying to read up a bit more.

I found this article very useful. A bit old and from a Marxist viewpoint but very sympathetic.

This rings true to me::


At the time I was in relationship with a feminist. Once she started a relationship with me she lost a whole section of her Feminist friends as she had chosen a relationship with a man. They were from the Radical feminist section of Feminism. Didn't put her off Feminism. but it was very hurtful for her. She still had feminist friends who didn't treat her in that way. I still have contact with her now. But for me when I hear the word Patriarchy or dismissing Butler as just a Queer theorist I remember what happened to my partner of the time.


In perspective: Judith Butler – InternationalSSocialism

I agree with most of the article. Its not uncritical.


Imo changing gender roles could help to reduce violence against women by undermining traditional patriarchal attitudes. So Butler is relevant.

An interesting read.

 

[JudithB]

Hi Pickman's Model and TopCat... could you tell me what about feminism you celebrate?

 

[JudithB]

So your impying Judith Butler isn't a feminist. She is a Queer theorist. Sounds to me like your are saying their is a right way to be a feminist.

On Butler. It has been quite some time since I read Gender Trouble. So been trying to read up a bit more.

I found this article very useful. A bit old and from a Marxist viewpoint but very sympathetic.

This rings true to me::


At the time I was in relationship with a feminist. Once she started a relationship with me she lost a whole section of her Feminist friends as she had chosen a relationship with a man. They were from the Radical feminist section of Feminism. Didn't put her off Feminism. but it was very hurtful for her. She still had feminist friends who didn't treat her in that way. I still have contact with her now. But for me when I hear the word Patriarchy or dismissing Butler as just a Queer theorist I remember what happened to my partner of the time.


In perspective: Judith Butler – InternationalSSocialism

I agree with most of the article. Its not uncritical.


Imo changing gender roles could help to reduce violence against women by undermining traditional patriarchal attitudes. So Butler is relevant.

It's been a while since I read her too but positing that because all concepts are human constructions then everything they name is likewise constructed pretty much disappears patriarchy. She alludes (uncomfortably) that because black women have faced oppression, then trans women should also be recognised as facing oppression...

Yeah it's something radical when we haven't had anything radical in our lifetime.

I have to admit I still haven't read Feminism and the 99% - it's been a busier summer than I thought - but that doesn't mean I don't understand intersectional feminism in one of it's interpretations (middle and working class women) although I will argue this is not the true meaning of the word.

Butler feels like yet another hall of mirrors for women wherein we're reflections of the male - possibly male gaze - we know who are the default humans and our oppression (world wide) should remind us of that. Pretending that males and females do not exist allows us to be erased from our oppression. Who wins?

 

[Gaia]

It's been a while since I read her too but positing that because all concepts are human constructions then everything they name is likewise constructed pretty much disappears patriarchy. She alludes (uncomfortably) that because black women have faced oppression, then trans women should also be recognised as facing oppression...

Yeah it's something radical when we haven't had anything radical in our lifetime.

I have to admit I still haven't read Feminism and the 99% - it's been a busier summer than I thought - but that doesn't mean I don't understand intersectional feminism in one of it's interpretations (middle and working class women) although I will argue this is not the true meaning of the word.

Butler feels like yet another hall of mirrors for women wherein we're reflections of the male - possibly male gaze - we know who are the default humans and our oppression (world wide) should remind us of that. Pretending that males and females do not exist allows us to be erased from our oppression. Who wins?

Ya know what, @JudithB…? Trans men are men and trans women are women and of course trans women have faced oppression - from TERFs. TERFs aren't feminists, feminism celebrates ALL women and Judy, sweetheart, you need to get the fuck over yourself and accept the fact that trans women are as female as you are. If you can't, then I would respectfully suggest you quit calling yourself a feminist. You also insinuate, from your response to Pickman's Model and TopCat (I won't link to them in case they don't wish to be dragged further into the, er, 'debate'), that men cannot be feminists by simple virtue of their sex. Every word you write is simply dripping with condescension and, in case you've not figured it out yet, you can add me to the - ever growing - list of people who finds you utterly obnoxious. You are obviously one of those self-described feminists who believes that feminism is the sole preserve of heteronormative, most likely white, females.

You are not oppressed; you do not live in a developing country, being forced to work for the equivalent of 10p a day, nor are you one of the thousands in this country who are forced to rely on food banks, nor are you being suppressed, you do not live in a country where women must request permission from men before they can do even the most basic of activities. You live in a country where you can have your own bank account, where you can have a job (and keep every penny you earn, after tax). You are fully free to have a life wholly independent of your husband/partner. For you 'oppression' is a role, an act, something you put on and take off like a Marc Jacobs coat, because that's what 'feminism' has seemingly become - a hobby for the middle-class. Do you care about the thousands of women who can't afford to feed their kids…? Almost certainly not (at least not genuinely, you probably stick £10 in a Barnardo's box occasionally, or stick a couple of tins in a supermarket food bank collecting box, but I'm pretty certain that you'd find the idea of meeting someone who's destitute utterly abhorrent).

I am not a feminist, I am a humanist; I believe in equality, equal rights and justice for everyone, regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, skin colour, nationality, or religion.

That's it, I've said all I want to say to you.

 

[JudithB]

Do I get to ask who this person is? A returning poster or a sock account?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Do I get to ask who this person is? A returning poster or a sock account?

Why should she be either? She's a genuine poster as far as I know,

 

[8ball]

Do I get to ask who this person is? A returning poster or a sock account?

I second that Gaia is a genuine poster.

Though I misread your post as saying “sock accountant” which is an excellent insult.

 

[JudithB]

Ya know what, @JudithB…? Trans men are men and trans women are women

You are entitled to believe this in the same way I am entitled to not agree that this is a finality. Could you explain to me what makes a trans woman a woman and what makes a trans man a man? No circular arguments please.

and of course trans women have faced oppression - from TERFs. TERFs aren't feminists, feminism celebrates ALL women and Judy, sweetheart, you need to get the fuck over yourself and accept the fact that trans women are as female as you are.

Ok can you give me some examples of what rights so called terfs (now recognised as a slur against women who do not confirm the ideology) have taken from trans women? Perhaps at the same time you could let us know the rate at which terfs murder trans women and how many trans women are killed in the UK per year and by whom?

If you can't, then I would respectfully suggest you quit calling yourself a feminist.

Nope no can do

You also insinuate, from your response to Pickman's Model and TopCat (I won't link to them in case they don't wish to be dragged further into the, er, 'debate'), that men cannot be feminists by simple virtue of their sex.

Men cannot be feminists. We’ve learned that. They can be allies and if they are allies it means they have to listen to what women are actually saying.

Every word you write is simply dripping with condescension and, in case you've not figured it out yet, you can add me to the - ever growing - list of people who finds you utterly obnoxious.

OK – if you can share their names I’ll make sure I don’t include them in the bacon sarnie and cuppa get together next time

Every You are obviously one of those self-described feminists who believes that feminism is the sole preserve of heteronormative, most likely white, females.

Projection sweetheart. Projection.

You are not oppressed; you do not live in a developing country, being forced to work for the equivalent of 10p a day, nor are you one of the thousands in this country who are forced to rely on food banks, nor are you being suppressed, you do not live in a country where women must request permission from men before they can do even the most basic of activities. You live in a country where you can have your own bank account, where you can have a job (and keep every penny you earn, after tax).

Nope and nor are trans women in this country and most of the western world. Wouldn’t it be good if they could just admit that women around the world ARE the most oppressed and stop telling us it’s them?

You You are fully free to have a life wholly independent of your husband/partner. For you 'oppression' is a role, an act, something you put on and take off like a Marc Jacobs coat, because that's what 'feminism' has seemingly become - a hobby for the middle-class. Do you care about the thousands of women who can't afford to feed their kids…? Almost certainly not (at least not genuinely, you probably stick £10 in a Barnardo's box occasionally, or stick a couple of tins in a supermarket food bank collecting box, but I'm pretty certain that you'd find the idea of meeting someone who's destitute utterly abhorrent).

Oppression is definitely not something that I would ever try to equate with someone from a country that is not in the western developed world. However like most women I know, I have been raped, I have been sexually abused many times (groped on buses, in bars etc).

I am not a feminist,

That’s quite obvious

I am a humanist; I believe in equality, equal rights and justice for everyone, regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, skin colour, nationality, or religion.

Don’t we all sweetheart

That's it, I've said all I want to say to you.

Well done

 

[weepiper]

I won't be told that I have to "get over myself" and accept trans women are as female as I am. They're not. Saying so does not make me a bigot. Saying so does not mean I wish them harm or to have less rights or to be treated unfairly. Saying so does not make me less of a feminist, because feminism is about females. Equality can include trans women. Fairness and kindness and justice can include trans women. Feminism to me is about being female and how that affects our lives. No-one gets to tell me that's wrong. Maybe it means something different to you: that's fine. But I won't be policed on my own turf.

 

[Athos]

TERFs aren't feminists...

For what is 'TERF' an acronym?

 

[JudithB]

For what is 'TERF' an acronym?

If you don't know by now you are daft. But I think you're making it up. Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

Now I wear make up and am not a lesbian...am I radical or not?

At the end of the day it's got to this www.terfisaslur.com

Arguing about the acronymn is not a hill worth dying on

 

[Athos]

If you don't know by now you are daft. But I think you're making it up. Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

Now I wear make up and am not a lesbian...am I radical or not?

At the end of the day it's got to this www.terfisaslur.com

Arguing about the acronymn is not a hill worth dying on

It was a rhetorical question. To point out how daft Gaia's suggestion that "TERFs aren't feminists" is; they are, by definition.

 

[JudithB]

xx

 

[campanula]

O really Gaia - feminism celebrates all women. In all ways? All the time? Under all circumstances? There is some feminist dogma which is the one true text? I hardly fucking think so when we are still debating what a woman is. But yeah, if we cannot get the distinction between sex and gender, then debate gets a bit frazzled. See, I consider myself to be a feminist on several fronts. Biology - the actual physical differences which define my life cannot be erased from who I am and the role I play in my community/social networks. My relationship to the means of production as a reproductive female. The inconveniences of my body. My sexuality, my sense of self. My inability to deflect physical violence, the commodification of my flesh. These things are very real and pivotal to me and I do not want these aspects erased...but recognised and transformed...because I don't believe in some sort of internal essence which makes me obedient, submissive and all those other 'feminine' traits...but I certainly believe it is in the interests of capitalism, at this moment in time, to maintain a hostile and divisive agenda by encouraging simplistic echo chambers of a very polarised and binary way of doing politics.