A Black Lives Matter POV On "Three Girls"

[Pinkie_Flamingo]

Have you seen it, in full? I have, and I read all the major newspaper coverage of the BBC' s endeavor.

Obviously, the issue of child sex abuse is extremely nuanced, but may I comment as a foreigner on what happened?

I am so deeply impressed by your commitment to correct institutional errors in your police force as they come to light. As a member of Black Lives Matter here in the U.S., I do often feel hopeless that our police will ever be willing to stop murdering and abusing my black neighbors. The 12 year old boy murdered by police, Tamir Rice, lived in my city. As did so many of the other black Americans cops murdered in 2016.

I think you have wonderfully professional police, compared to mine. But policing is about as suspectible to pressure, corruption and politicization as any government function we could name. Constant vigilance will always be needed.

(Is "Line of Duty" based on real events?)

You had a serious problem. You acknowledged it, and are doing better now.

From this side of the pond, that looks VERY impressive.

 

[teqniq]

Evidently and quite possibly understandably, you haven't heard of Mark Duggan and Azelle Rodney to name but two. But suffice to say we have our problems here too. Admittedly not on the same scale as you experience but they exist.

E2a

wrt the Rochdale abuse scandal, the police and social services knew what was going on for quite some time and did nothing.

 

[Idaho]

Our police kill a lot less people, mainly because we don't give most of them guns. The few who carry guns have a greater incidence of killing people.

 

[bi0boy]

Our police kill a lot less people, mainly because we don't give most of them guns. The few who carry guns have a greater incidence of killing people.

Not compared to Americans. In the year March 2015-2016 there were 14,753 police operations involving firearms, and police discharged weapons in only 7 of those, resulting in 4 deaths.

 

[Idaho]

But surely *all* police operations in the US involve guns - therefore the 0.03% death rate will cause considerably more total deaths?

 

[CrabbedOne]

Our police kill a lot less people, mainly because we don't give most of them guns. The few who carry guns have a greater incidence of killing people.

That might be because UK firearms officers are mostly dispatched to incidents where they may have to shoot people. The police have always been armed in N.I. and lately they really don't seem to shoot folk as frequently as US cops do. That varies widely by US Police Department. It's not giving the cops guns it's institutional attitudes to their use and the prevalence of firearms in civilian hands.

 

[Pinkie_Flamingo]

American citizens killed by the police in 2016 numbered 1,091, according to the Guardian. Until last year, there was no US government count of such deaths.

This does not include the numbers of people who died in police custody. Those deaths are presently still uncounted.

The victims are overwhelmingly young and African American, with young Native Americans and white mentally ill people also tremendously overrepresented.

By contrast, Australian cops, where people do have gun rights as citizens, killed only 92 people between 1992 and 2011.

 

[2hats]

By contrast, Australia, which does have gun rights for its citizens, killed about 100 of its citizens last year.

Per capita, that's a higher (20+%) body count than the US (based on the numbers you provide).

 

[Fez909]

By contrast, Australia, which does have gun rights for its citizens, killed about 100 of its citizens last year.

Is that true, because if so, it's more than they killed in the 19 years from 1992 to 2011 (94).

source

 

[rubbershoes]

(Is "Line of Duty" based on real events?)

Not really.

Obviously police corruption has existed over the years, though It's generally regarded as being less common since the 1970s

 

[2hats]

Is that true, because if so, it's more than they killed in the 19 years from 1992 to 2011 (94).

source

The original numbers don’t seem right, do they?

From 2008 to 2011 there were 9 fatal shootings by police in England and Wales.
From 2008 to 2011 there were 14 such shootings in Australia (ie that’s about 33 to compare normalised to the population of Eng+Wal).

In the US the FBI estimates an average of 390 "justifiable police killings” annually for the period 2000-2014 (which would be about 273 normalised to E+W over 2008-2011 even before one could start adding in the unjustifiable killings, whatever they may be).

273+ >> 33 > 9

 

[Pinkie_Flamingo]

Is that true, because if so, it's more than they killed in the 19 years from 1992 to 2011 (94).

source

I looked again, and the number of people killed by Australian police is 92, but for the period of 1992 to 2011, not for the 12 months of 2016.

I apologize!

I am unable to find any data on people killed by Australian police in 2016 -- it may have been zero.

Blacks are 300% more likely to be killed by American police than are whites here.

 

[Shechemite]

The thread title is a bit misleading, no?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Have you seen it, in full? I have, and I read all the major newspaper coverage of the BBC' s endeavor.

Obviously, the issue of child sex abuse is extremely nuanced, but may I comment as a foreigner on what happened?

I am so deeply impressed by your commitment to correct institutional errors in your police force as they come to light. As a member of Black Lives Matter here in the U.S., I do often feel hopeless that our police will ever be willing to stop murdering and abusing my black neighbors. The 12 year old boy murdered by police, Tamir Rice, lived in my city. As did so many of the other black Americans cops murdered in 2016.

I think you have wonderfully professional police, compared to mine. But policing is about as suspectible to pressure, corruption and politicization as any government function we could name. Constant vigilance will always be needed.

(Is "Line of Duty" based on real events?)

You had a serious problem. You acknowledged it, and are doing better now.

From this side of the pond, that looks VERY impressive.

There is already a thread to discuss the Three Girls documentary here:

Three Girls

Please change the title of this thread to reflect it's actual purpose/content.

 

[Shechemite]

I can't help but be a bit suspicious at the 'how wonderful british services are at responding to failings' bit.

 

[Pinkie_Flamingo]

There is already a thread to discuss the Three Girls documentary here:

Three Girls

Please change the title of this thread to reflect it's actual purpose/content.

Will do! Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Pinkie_Flamingo]

I can't help but be a bit suspicious at the 'how wonderful british services are at responding to failings' bit.

Compared to the US? The two cops who murdered Tamir Rice are still working as Cleveland police officers and have never been arrested for anything. One was disciplined for a false statement in his written report. That's all that has happen -- and it has been over two YEARS now.

Even worse, that is 100% consistent with how the murders of other Americans by police are handled. It is so rare to have a police officer charged with such a homicide here, I can't even recall the last time it happened. If you remember the city of Los Angeles saw horrendous rioting for 3 days in 1992, and the inciting incident was the acquittal of the 6 cops who had been caught on video, savagely beating a black man called Rodney King.

 

[eoin_k]

Pinkie_Flamingo

You might want to check out the United Friends and Family Campaign and the film Injustice.

vimeo.com/34633260

 

[8115]

.

 

[A380]

It's not just the UK. All other European countries arm their police (even Eire) and yet they kill an order of magnitude less people than you do in the states. Even the French, who are not widely noted for their softly softly attitudes.

 

[bemused]

Our police kill a lot less people, mainly because we don't give most of them guns. The few who carry guns have a greater incidence of killing people.

Probably worth noting our general public don't carry guns either. I think if you have an armed society police interactions are going to be far more dangerous for everyone.

 

[CrabbedOne]

It's not just the UK. All other European countries arm their police (even Eire) and yet they kill an order of magnitude less people than you do in the states. Even the French, who are not widely noted for their softly softly attitudes.

I was wondering how US police shootings compared with South Africa or the Americas in general. We can exaggerate these things. The US obviously isn't Mexico or Columbia but comparisons with the wilder parts of the world are perhaps more appropriate. The US is an armed society and a big wedge of Americans feel the need of firearms and an aggressive police attitude. It's not the Wild West and even that was rather tamer than the myth. Much of America is boringly safe even if still prone to have an exaggerated fear of "predators".

Most Americans are not scared of their police forces. I've met US cops who claim never to have drawn a firearm in anger just like in Europe. I can remember at least one protracted gunfight between an patrol RUC and and escaping PIRA ASU in my hometown. In N.I. in 2010 officers reported drawing a firearm just 302 times only 3 actually then pulled the trigger. And the PSNI are a militarised force walking round in communities that hate them carrying just as much hard wired bigotry and more bitterly remembered dead colleagues as cops in some US cities. Yet they rarely resort to their guns. These days not many people are trying to kill them but there's a great reluctance to pull that Glock.

On PRI When it comes to police shootings, the US doesn't look like a developed nation

What's evident is in the US police shootings of black guys varies wildly. Note the comparison with Georgia and Oklahoma. They have a reputation but I don't think Oakie cops are seven times more sacred of black guys than their Georgian peers. Something else is going on here and a large part is probably institutional incompetence. If you are having to kill so many people policing a community it may be something is wrong with your police work or your idea of what that should be. Fucked up Police Departments matter.

 

[likesfish]

Chicago or certain districts of it have a horrific level of murder and mayhem mostly gang related way more than a city in florida so somethings up with the police department.

 

[Geri]

My fairly infrequent dealings with the police over the years have been mixed. But a few years ago I showed some videos of the riots in Bristol to a Facebook friend, a Kurdish man living in Turkey, and his reaction was "Oh, British police are nice!" I was a bit taken aback at first, then I thought that in comparison with what they experience there, he might have a point.

 

[Pinkie_Flamingo]

I was wondering how US police shootings compared with South Africa or the Americas in general. We can exaggerate these things. The US obviously isn't Mexico or Columbia but comparisons with the wilder parts of the world are perhaps more appropriate. The US is an armed society and a big wedge of Americans feel the need of firearms and an aggressive police attitude. It's not the Wild West and even that was rather tamer than the myth. Much of America is boringly safe even if still prone to have an exaggerated fear of "predators".

Most Americans are not scared of their police forces. I've met US cops who claim never to have drawn a firearm in anger just like in Europe. I can remember at least one protracted gunfight between an patrol RUC and and escaping PIRA ASU in my hometown. In N.I. in 2010 officers reported drawing a firearm just 302 times only 3 actually then pulled the trigger. And the PSNI are a militarised force walking round in communities that hate them carrying just as much hard wired bigotry and more bitterly remembered dead colleagues as cops in some US cities. Yet they rarely resort to their guns. These days not many people are trying to kill them but there's a great reluctance to pull that Glock.

On PRI When it comes to police shootings, the US doesn't look like a developed nation

What's evident is in the US police shootings of black guys varies wildly. Note the comparison with Georgia and Oklahoma. They have a reputation but I don't think Oakie cops are seven times more sacred of black guys than their Georgian peers. Something else is going on here and a large part is probably institutional incompetence. If you are having to kill so many people policing a community it may be something is wrong with your police work or your idea of what that should be. Fucked up Police Departments matter.

O, yes. We did have an attempt to reform bad police departments under our federal DOJ, which Trump's Attorney General stopped. Hialeah is part of the Miami/Dade area, possibly the worst public corruption in the US. At one point in the 1990's, so many of the city-county's officials were arrested for public corruption, the feds actually ran the local government as custodians.

Chicago, NYC, LA, Boston, etc. among others have been under DOJ Mandates more or less constantly for at least 30 years. Change is (apparently) impossible, but the proliferation of cell phone videos has begun to open minds a tiny bit.

Sadly, the murder of Tamir Rice is on CCTV and cannot be disputed, and STILL there is no interest in any part of my community apart from my black neighbors in seeing justice done. You can watch it on YouTube, if you wish. But it is very, very disturbing, so be forewarned.

I don't know why the US is so resistant to change on this issue, but it is like trying to sculpt marble with a feather.

This is the sweet little boy who was murdered:

 

[Pinkie_Flamingo]

Chicago or certain districts of it have a horrific level of murder and mayhem mostly gang related way more than a city in florida so somethings up with the police department.

Worse -- these uber-violent gangs exist because of the abuses of my government. You may have heard of the Iran-Contra Scandal under Reagan. What is less known, even among Americans, is that the CIA introduced crack cocaine to black neighborhoods on the West Coast of the US in the early 1980's, so as to develop funds that could be used to buy guns for the "anti-communist fighters" in Central America.

Special Reports - Cocaine, Conspiracy Theories And The Cia In Central America | Drug Wars | FRONTLINE | PBS

This is yet to result in anyone in the US government being arrested and sent to prison.

Our current violence is fed in part by the HUGE, SUDDEN appetite for opioids created when our FDA approved OxyContin, which unlike other pain meds, creates intractable addiction in as little as a month. When the prescription drug becomes too expensive or is elsewise restricted, the addicts turn to heroin.

Heroin is derived from opium poppies, grown in areas of the world where anti-West terrorists are most likely found, and the sale of this drug is creating BILLIONS in profits for them, annually.

My government has failed to pull the OxyCotin off the market, or to regulate the "doctor feel goods" who create MILLIONS of addicts.

Our product liablity lawyers will most likely succeed in suing the manufacturer of OxyCotin for its bad drug here in the US, and they may eventually stop selling it here, but they have a plan to peddle it in other countries next.

OxyContin goes global — “We’re only just getting started”

These are misery merchants of an almost-unbelievable magnitude and by rights, they should all be at the Hague on trial for their Crimes Against Humanity, but the average American -- of any ethnicity -- is not even aware of the role our government played and continues to play in the slaughter of entire generations of Americans. And the slaughter of innocents in other nations, including yours.

It is so bad here in Cleveland, we cannot autopsy bodies fast enough, and routinely find babies and toddlers in cars with their dead, overdosed parents.

Reagan was a diabolical man.

DIABOLICAL.

 

[Pinkie_Flamingo]

 

[CrabbedOne]

Chicago or certain districts of it have a horrific level of murder and mayhem mostly gang related way more than a city in florida so somethings up with the police department.

I read a paper on urban violence in Chicago a few years ago. It is historically a very corrupt city. Violence has gone up and down reaching a peak in the 90s crack epidemic. A while ago part of the city's administration basically reached an agreement with well organised drug gangs that they'd enforce order their areas and the police would leave them alone. That the gangs did brutally. Then a new broom administration came in running on an anti-corruption ticket and jailed the drug lords and sacked collaborating cops. It was hailed as a great success but the police failed to regain control of the areas. This left a generation of young men who grown up under drug gangs rule acclimated to essentially very violent criminal authoritarianism suddenly liberated. Some proceeded to shot each other over teenage squabbles. It's grown into disorderly small scale gang violence in pretty localised areas that's even harder for the police to deal with.

This Slate piece catches something of it.

The paper compared Chicago's situation to what's happened in some Mexican cities during the drug war. Local control was corruptly handed over to cartels and then comes the crackdown but what resulted was a Hobbesian mess. Of course Mexico is worse; much worse. This sort of societal disruption doesn't end easily. Once the state relinquishes control it's hard to get back even with a well run police department trying its best.

 

[Pinkie_Flamingo]

I read a paper on urban violence in Chicago a few years ago. It is historically a very corrupt city. Violence has gone up and down reaching a peak in the 90s crack epidemic. A while ago part of the city's administration basically reached an agreement with well organised drug gangs that they'd enforce order their areas and the police would leave them alone. That the gangs did brutally. Then a new broom administration came in running on an anti-corruption ticket and jailed the drug lords and sacked collaborating cops. It was hailed as a great success but the police failed to regain control of the areas. This left a generation of young men who grown up under drug gangs rule acclimated to essentially very violent criminal authoritarianism suddenly liberated. Some proceeded to shot each other over teenage squabbles. It's grown into disorderly small scale gang violence in pretty localised areas that's even harder for the police to deal with.

This Slate piece catches something of it.

The paper compared Chicago's situation to what's happened in some Mexican cities during the drug war. Local control was corruptly handed over to cartels and then comes the crackdown but what resulted was a Hobbesian mess. Of course Mexico is worse; much worse. This sort of societal disruption doesn't end easily. Once the state relinquishes control it's hard to get back even with a well run police department trying its best.

Absolutely. But there is so much money and power involved, the solutions are eluisve even to the most reform-minded.