39 dead in lorry container in Essex, October 2019

[Dogsauce]

Fortunately we have a victim that is young and attractive enough to make the front pages of the paper, otherwise her story might not have been heard, like the hundreds of others dead before. The whole sordid business and how/when it is reported turns my stomach.

 

[existentialist]

There are a lot of people from the countryside in EU countries in the East who get hoodwinked into these scams and end up as cattle in western Europe despite having legal right to work. There are even a ridiculous amount of people born in the rich countries who get stuck in these awful situations
Borders aren't the cause. I mean, they all came from China and Vietnam, East Asia has way more money than Europe, and they must have crossed about 20 borders

So what do you think is the cause? Because I think borders are the cause. Or at least they're part of it.

 

[maomao]

One of the things which apparently makes it possible is that the families of those being smuggled are willing or at least prepared to borrow enormous sums of money to send their loved ones halfway around the world in the "care" of criminal gangs, because they've been promised a marvellous life in the UK, but where the only real prospect (if they survive) is of indentured labour in various unsavoury areas of the black economy.

If there's anything "good" to come from this horrific case, it might be that even one or two fewer people are able to be conned or persuaded into making a similar journey.

A large proportion of people smuggled from East Asia are in debt to gangs already and are offered it (with additional fees) as a way out rather than being a free choice to head for a better life elsewhere. This isn't necessarily an open borders issue.

 

[treelover]

Not sure this is the thread for the open borders/no borders debate, lots of us have different views on this.

 

[andysays]

A large proportion of people smuggled from East Asia are in debt to gangs already and are offered it (with additional fees) as a way out rather than being a free choice to head for a better life elsewhere. This isn't necessarily an open borders issue.

Yeah, I'm sure that's true, but the reports about the two Vietnamese people featured in eg the BBC story don't appear to involve that. They may, of course, not be the complete story.

I agree that this is not simply an open borders issue. I was attempting, perhaps clumsily, to make that very point - this is a complex issue which can't be understood simply by blaming either immigration laws or people smugglers.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not sure this is the thread for the open borders/no borders debate, lots of us have different views on this.

Let's see where the thread goes eh

 

[Mation]

.

 

[existentialist]

Let's see where the thread goes eh

Worst case is that treelover gets to express mild exasperation at the ideological impurity of those who refuse to handwring in perfect unison with him...and now I'm really off topic

 

[Mation]

Not sure this is the thread for the open borders/no borders debate

Fair point.

 

[maomao]

You're saying that people with a legal right to enter the UK and work here are nevertheless being smuggled in?

They're not smuggled in but tricked over here with promises of great jobs and then forced into rubbish jobs where most of their wages are docked for sub standard lodgings and food.

 

[Mation]

They're not smuggled in but tricked over here with promises of great jobs and then forced into rubbish jobs where most of their wages are docked for sub standard lodgings and food.

Which is both terrible and different to people being rammed into a freezer to get here.

 

[maomao]

Which is both terrible and different to people being rammed into a freezer to get here.

Both fueled by the demand for cheap agricultural workers. Both ending in borderline or actual slavery situations.

 

[Mation]

We're all talking at cross purposes to no one's benefit. I'm out.

 

[mystic pyjamas]

It's strange that the UK has a reputation for being a land of milk and honey.
This myth has gained so much traction that people living in some of the poorest parts of the world are prepared to pay in some cases £30,000 to smugglers to help them in.
£30,000 is a fortune to most people in this country let alone in places like Vietnam and China.
Let's hope this tragic event is given enough media coverage to dispel the con perpetrated for the most part on the most vulnerable in these societies.

 

[brogdale]

Driver charged.

 

[andysays]

Essex lorry deaths: Appeal to Vietnamese over victims' identities

The BBC has also been contacted by Vietnamese families who fear their relatives were among the dead... ...Nguyen Dinh Gia, believes his son, Nguyen Dinh Luong, 20 was also among the 39 victims. He said he had not heard from his son since he said he was joining a group in Paris to try and reach the UK last week.

Mr Luong's brother, Nguyen Dinh Oanh, wanted to warn others against making similar dangerous journeys. "My advice to them is stay at home, work hard enough just to make a reasonable living. "We want the money but we value the human life more."

 

[Proper Tidy]

China and Vietnam are not anything like the poorest parts of the world. Even Vietnam is full of African economic migrants. And China funds the higher education in Europe, every university is twinned with some Chinese university

The reason that 'the west' has an appeal to people in 'the east' is not just money, it's getting the fuck out of there, as they should.
In the post USSR days loads of Vietnamese went to Czechoslovakia and loads of them went over to Vietnam to do a foreign exchange because they were both old medium sized countries who went through Leninism and what the fuck. More of that shit please

I dunno about vietnam being 'full' of african migrants. I saw some african migrants in saigon/HCMC, didn't notice any african migrant population anywhere else, and apparently 4% of vietnamese population is 'other' eg not viet, khmer etc - would imagine most of that 4% is mainly white european/north american too judging by significant populations in hanoi and saigon.

Also saw a lot of poverty there too, people pulling ploughs etc. As with everywhere, talking about rich or poor regions in mostly bollocks, it's how that is distributed. Plenty of wealth in africa. Size of vietnamese diaspora probably some indication of how tough life is for many, yeah not all about food in bellies of course, but it is also about that

 

[mystic pyjamas]

China and Vietnam are not anything like the poorest parts of the world. Even Vietnam is full of African economic migrants. And China funds the higher education in Europe, every university is twinned with some Chinese university

The reason that 'the west' has an appeal to people in 'the east' is not just money, it's getting the fuck out of there, as they should.
In the post USSR days loads of Vietnamese went to Czechoslovakia and loads of them went over to Vietnam to do a foreign exchange because they were both old medium sized countries who went through Leninism and what the fuck. More of that shit please

China and Vietnam may not be the poorest part of the world but for many living there it comes pretty damn close. Forget the elites they are, as in all other countries a tiny minority.
Being working class in the UK or Vietnam is really a no brainer as to where I would choose to live.
Of course it's about money and opportunity that's a given so not sure what you're on about there.
Your last paragraph was rather incoherent so didn't understand that bit either.

 

[Pickman's model]

And China funds the higher education in Europe, every university is twinned with some Chinese university

tosh

 

[skyscraper101]

So they were bought in from Zeebrugge by one truck, but picked up by another right? And we still don't know who bought them into the UK in the first place? It wasn't this guy apparently.

But this guy who picked them up in England - was he intending to drive all the way back to Northern Ireland with them? If not, it's a bit odd to have some random Northern Irish guy drive all the way to SE England to move a trailer a few yards? If it was just some legit goods on board, you'd just get a more local trucker surely?

 

[existentialist]

No that is totally true. I was just responding to the assertion that Vietnamese are fleeing from poverty. It's not Platoon, working class people in Vietnam live in houses with TV and the internet. They are poor and see better opportunities abroad, but they are not refugees.

Hmm.

 

[existentialist]

So they were bought in from Zeebrugge by one truck, but picked up by another right? And we still don't know who bought them into the UK in the first place? It wasn't this guy apparently.

But this guy who picked them up in England - was he intending to drive all the way back to Northern Ireland with them? If not, it's a bit odd to have some random Northern Irish guy drive all the way to SE England to move a trailer a few yards? If it was just some legit goods on board, you'd just get a more local trucker surely?

If they've charged him with manslaughter, then I suspect we're heading pretty close to "no more speculation about the alleged offence" stage, vis a vis court proceedings, etc...

 

[skyscraper101]

If they've charged him with manslaughter, then I suspect we're heading pretty close to "no more speculation about the alleged offence" stage, vis a vis court proceedings, etc...

OK fair enough. Probably best nobody speculate on this

I don't think I'm in any legally dodgy ground though by saying it would seem to be a bit odd to drive from NI to SE England just to move a trailer down the road. If that were the case.

 

[Treacle Toes]

China and Vietnam are not anything like the poorest parts of the world. Even Vietnam is full of African economic migrants.

Why are you posting this absolute bollocks?

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/vietnam-population/

 

[Treacle Toes]

It's strange that the UK has a reputation for being a land of milk and honey.

At 47, I have never, ever heard an immigrant/migrant/refugee/ person born outside of the UK of any kind refer to the UK as the land of milk and honey. In fact the last person who I read use it is an expat, living abroad, whose husband work in Dubai paying zero tax but still feels she has the right and reason to comment on how migrants to the UK think.

 

[existentialist]

OK fair enough. Probably best nobody speculate on this

I don't think I'm in any legally dodgy ground though by saying it would seem to be a bit odd to drive from NI to SE England just to move a trailer down the road. If that were the case.

No, I agree - I guess it's just that there's always that risk of some chancer defence lawyer deciding it's worth trying to prove in course whether it was legally dodgy or not...

 

[existentialist]

.

 

[brogdale]

East Asia has way more money than Europe

As measured how, exactly?
Looks to me like you spout bollocks.

 

[brogdale]

I lived in Hanoi, it's full of Africans. But I will defer to your dodgy looking website

Seriously, no Vietnamese at all? You sure you lived there?

 

[miss direct]

Plenty of people in Turkey think the UK is a land of job opportunities and a higher quality of life. I am regularly asked why on earth I, as a British person, live and work in Turkey, when I have the opportunity to work in the UK or many other places (ha, maybe not anymore.) I always point out that life isn't as easy as they may think - the cost of living is far higher even if salaries are much more. So yes, there is a perception of life being "better" in the UK and when you take into account exchange rates, it's not really surprising that the UK (along with other places) are attractive.