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200 more innocent Afghans killed by our bombs.

That must've been the smart bomb I heard about that missed it's target by a mile.

"collateral damage" (why is it never in the plural?)
 
I only wish I could say I was surprised. To be honest, I'm only surprised our so-called 'smart' bombs have not produced a disater of this magnitude before now in this 'war.' :( :mad: :(

PEACE TO ALL!
 
Anyone who supports this action supports the accidental death of non-combatants.Those who believe terrorism will implode beneath the weight of pacifist mind beams also support the killing of non-combatants.So what?
 
Taxman,

So telling that you can't bring yourself to mention the Afghans as people.

That would give the game away, wouldn't it?

P.S. Are you really a tax man? If so, it explains why you must enjoy justifying the pain inflicted on other people.

And I'm not a pacifist. Don't assume that all those who don't support this war are pacifists.

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
Do you run a corner shop?
Better dig out that file.
I don't like inflicting pain on anyone.I have to inflict pain on myself several times a day and its not because of dark pleasures.In case you think I don't think that Afghans are people I would like to say yes they are people.Hooray.
I never said you were a pacifist.Having been against a few little wars in my time I've also bristled at the association,except I shouldn't have, as I obviously had more in common with them than the advocates of those conflicts.I was just making the point that inertia doesn't save the lives of the innocent.If you support the action in Afghanistan its important to own up that you do support the killing of non-combatants.Smart bombs are bollocks.It doesnt mean the action as a whole is bollocks.What makes it a less hypocritical position compared to the 'stop the war cos its yanks that want it' brigade is there are no escape clauses:as the latter havent been called upon to solve the problem of terrorism,neither have I of course but I support the UK govs actions, they can always hide behind abstractions and pat themselves on the back for their foresight:'I always said the war in Afghanistan wouldn't solve anything'as another kindergarten gets blown sky high.
Some people think that a change in American foreign policy will deter terrorism,any change apart from the present one which is to stimulate some international action against terrorists.
 
Actually, yes I do run a corner shop.

Nothing you say points to any justification for bombing Afghanistan and killing innocent people, except that you agree with the US/UK 'hunch' that it's probably OBL behind all of this. But you can always throw away Afghan lives as by-products of a 'war' that should never have happened whilst American lives are 'innocent' in a way that Afghans lives are not.

Now why does that sound supremely arrogant?

Plus, if you're talking about abstractions, how about 'war of good against evil' (George Bush and Blair), 'war against terrorism (same again) and 'crusade' (Dubya). Meaningless throwaway terms that are a cover for a multitude of evils, all of which are happening in Afghanistan, and all of which you support.

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
Here's a bit of news you might be interested in.

The New York Times reports that the USAF is now dropping "CBU-89 Gators", anti-personnel mines on Afghanistan. According to Human Rights Watch, the Taliban stopped using land-mines in 1998, declaring them un-islamic.

Land-mines killed an average of 88 people a month in Afghanistan, in the year 2000, despite the fact that most were laid years ago in the Soviet war, which ended in 1992.

Britain led 142 other countries in signing a 1997 Treaty banning all use of land-mines (one of Princess Di's pet projects). The USA refused to sign.
 
I see Taxman, so the deaths of Afghan civilians are a price worth paying whilst those of US civilians are an atrocity Both are atrocities of equal magnitude and correspondingly criminal acts.

PEACE TO ALL!
 
I actually feel that Taxman has summed up my dillemma quite well.

I agree that killing civilians is wrong, no matter who does it, no matter what the other guy did first.
Neither Bin Laden nor Bush agrees with me on this.

However, I also agree that the Taliban must be stopped and that Bin Laden must be stopped. I decided that there was such thing as a just war when the Taliban started making Hindus wear yellow clothing, which was before the attack on the US.

Therefore I can neither completely support nor completely oppose the war. I support _some_ action in Afghanistan(The most effective action I can think of being a coordinated international special forces campaign, probably the only thing that could successfully win a land war in Afghanistan). I do not, however, support the action that is being taken. I feel that the bombing is both hypocritical, in that it kills civilians, and counterproductive, in that it is, based on the results of past bombing campaigns, more likely to cause Afghani people to rally behind that Taliban than to oust it.
Taxman, is this how you feel as well?

I think gsvFirstPrinciples put it best:
The moral high ground is well and truly flattened.
 
Hermine.

IF the objective of these attacks on Afghanistan are because we don't like what the Taleban do, then it's a complete different ballgame to whether or not OBL was behind the attacks.

Bush has stated that he'll stop attacking the Taleban if they hand over OBL.

So we have to determine why the attacks against Afghanistan are happening. If it is because we don't like the Taleban, then any support for the US will collapse, because this was not the original objective of these attacks. True, the media has been pursuing a different agenda, but this is not the objective, whether people like it or not.

Also, if it is because we don't like the Taleban then we also have to look at other repressive regimes (most which aren't in the news every day) around the world that we don't like and want to control. This is a very difficult area because views are highly selective and subjective. Nearly all Muslim States (meaning the people, not their leaders/regimes) would believe in taking some sort of action against America because it is seen to be repressive as well as Islamophobic/racist/xenophobic etc. What would we do in this instance?

So you have to be very careful about how you justify these attacks.
 
I'm Islamophobic because I don't think being Islamic is a valid reason to massacre Hindus? Because that is what the Taliban shows all signs of doing next.

Certainly, my government's agenda is not the same as mine. You mention that like it's a new phenomenon.

However, the US's objective in getting involved in WWII was not stopping German atrocities, and yet that is remembered as a just war.

Also, the Taliban wasn't in the news when I started writing my senator about it.
 
No. Islamophobia is called discrimination, and an irrational hostility towards Muslims and Arabs.

You only have to look at what is happening in your own country Hermine, to find that discrimination against Muslims and Arabs resurfaces every time there is a terrorist attack.

Sure, it's not the same thing as having to wear yellow clothes, but then again the Afghans force women to wear purdah, in exactly the same way that the Saudis do. So you would have to justify war against the Saudis for their repression too, is what I'm saying. Not to mention the Chinese, who carry out all sorts of repression against their own people.

Its funny that you mention the Hindus though. My family comes from a part of India that has as it's State government the ruling Hindu Nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) which is also the governing national party. These are the people who were behind the destruction of the Babri Mosque in 1992, if you recall.

Since then, there has been no end of communal trouble, and our community has been at the wrong end of the stick because of it. One of my relatives died at the hands of a Hindu mob, who raped her before burning her alive in her bedroom. The police stood by and watched.

All because she was a Muslim.

Now tell me - should be bomb India too?

Fact is, if you're going to justify action against the Taleban, then you'd better well justify it against virtually everyone else. Only everyone else isn't in the news all day like the Taleban are.

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
I'll provide you with a link in the meantime Hermine, on how you can deal with the Taleban here. Just read on from my comments.

I'm not going to demean how minority groups are being treated, but I really think that you're over-emphasising the parallels with Nazi Germany. The Taleban are a stupid bunch of people who have a warped view of religion. They by no means all act with one voice. Some want to go back to a medieval system where minority groups indeed DID wear distinguishing clothing but not because they were going to be sent to the gas chambers. What Taleban need is help to prevent even more people from dying of starvation than are dying at the moment.

Then we can deal with them through sanctions.

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
200 killed? If true, yes it's a major tragedy, but perhaps to be expected in a war.

On the other hand, the number sounds too high; even journalists could count only 30 graves. And it is very easy to dig graves and fill them back in, without a body (just playing devils-advocate here).

Also, a group like the Taleban would have no problem in conducting their own massacre and then blaming it on the US.

Finally, a picture in the newspaper showed a warhead sitting in the middle of a crater. The warhead was relatively undamaged and was sitting oh so in the crater that it looked quite fake.

My main problem is that most people here are totally unquestioning of Taleban propoganda, but doubt everything that the US says.

The ability to critically analyse data is the sign of a good intellect, not blanket believing or disbelieving what one side or another says, depending on which view meets with your approval.
 
Yeah NV.

People often say that about the Holocaust. Like the numbers were inflated and people can't analyze it critically. That a whole industry has been built up around it and it's just Jewish propaganda used after 1967 as an excuse for Zionism.

Some people can even justify on the evidence that it never happened. What do you think?

Please don't just sit there in the comfort of your armchair talking about propaganda. It's another exercise in denial.

People here do not deny how many people died at the WTC and the Pentagon. They will believe the figures for them. Why not accord the same courtesy to the Afghans?

But then, that's not the point. Because God does not measure suffering in numbers. Killing is killing, and deaths of innocent people are wrong, whether it is a death of one person, or the deaths of six million. So why not accept innocent deaths occured?

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
To support PCS there seems to be a confusion at the heart of this war: is it to find and destroy OBL and Al-Q, or is it to flatten a country whose gov.t 'we' don't like?

If the former - they should at least test the Taliban's offer to hand OBL to a third country to put on trial. If that didn't work, seek UN legitimacy, put together an international investigation, an international police force (to be sensitive and effective it would have to be a muslim-led coalition), if necessary, in the final analysis, send in ground troops - again muslim-led.

If the latter - it's hypocritical to attack Afghanistan and not to attack Saudi Arabia. But then the current Saudi regime (with it's repression of women, and all people outside the narrow dynastic elite) would not survive without US patronage (given in return for a cheap and continuous supply of oil).

The fact that neither course is chosen says a lot more about domestic politics (Bush has to be seen to act, Bush gets to play statesman with a big stick, Bush gets the legitimacy the election didn't give him, generals get to play with their toys, big gov.t gets to spend more taxes, none of 'our boys' die, cos that would look bad) than about any concern over ethics or international law.

To make it clear: this is terrorist action by any definition of the word. It is action without legitimacy in international law, it is about using force to coerce and intimidate (well beyond the immediate Afghani victims), and is about demonstrating US millitary superiority in a (ultimately doomed) attempt to keep all the other simmering conflicts under thumb.

It is also an appallingly short-term prosecution of US interests. Even in the short term it is giving OBL legitimacy in the eyes of millions, in the medium and long term, it will destabilise most of the governments of the region as the popular mood errupts through largely undemocratic, hostile regimes.

There are so many reasons why this action is wrong - even from a red-blooded red-neck US point of view that it amazes me that some here have some problem with it. The US has an incredably strong tradition of independent thought, of opposition to federal action, of grass-roots activiism, of liberal, even libertarian outlook. What happened to that tradition? We don't seem to get much of a reflection of it from our american posters. Has it died?

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: bruise ]
 
Nv does have a point. Patel you aren't questioninh anything the Taleban are saying. They say they would hand over Bin Laden but would they and i don't think nutritional value would deny the holocaust but the journolists have thus far been taken to and from sites of interest byt the taleban rather then been able to conduct there own studies of whats going on.
But lets face it we still shouldn't be bombing them and that desont change if one was died or a thousend.
As for the the US dropping landmines thats just bang out of order.

Dave
 
The American woodcock, with its eyes placed toward the top of its head, can see backward and upward, and forward and upward, with binocular vision and, laterally, almost 180 degrees with each eye. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D
 
Just like to say, that last post from Bruise is one of the best i've seen on this subject. And PCS's previous but one post is also one of the best. Keep it up people, it's stuff like this that makes these boards one of the best places on the net for links, info and well written ideas, thought, argument and polemic. Respect.
 
What the Taleban say doesn't even need to be questioned, thats the whole point! I think everyone has made the point that they're a bunch of religious nuts. It's a granted. It's also a granted that when relatives of dead people come running and screaming at you because you're a British reporter and take up arms to shoot any American that might come their way then they are fairly clear who did this crime against them.

So when NV has to stoop to questioning the numbers of people killed, throwing doubts and aspersions upon what has really happened, when even the US admits it has killed innocent people, you have to wonder what angle he is coming from. No-one here questioned US figures, or said that America was deliberately lying about the numbers killed, or suggested that America did this to it's own citizens (at least, not as far as I'm aware of) even though it could be within the realms of possibility and even though the numbers were exaggerated at the beginning.

This is the sort of silly nitpicking about numbers that Holocaust deniers get into, and it's shameful. People are people and the death of one person is equivalent to the whole of mankind. Imagine if that person was you. And imagine if someone explained to your family that it was necassary 'collateral damage'.
 
THERE NOT OUR BOMBS
PLUS PROVE THEY WERE KILLED BY THE ALLIES NO PROVE YET
4 UN WORKERS YES
200 PEOPLE NO PROVE
 
I've never read such garbage in all my life.

You people (you know who I mean!) are full of it.

This is the sort of thing only a fanatic would say:

What the XXXXX say doesn't even need to be questioned...

Sorry for being offensive, but the level of garbage here is just just high for me.

[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: nutritional_value ]
 
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