TinyCrendon
New Member
Im not sure where to start.
Darin - you seem to be criticising a different piece. Where does it say that those who helped commit the acts of Sept 11th shouldnt be brought to justice? Where does it show support for OBL?
I think you are confusing a desire to do the best thing with a desire to do what our leaders say, which may not be the same thing.
No one is going to destroy the USA. Every nation state on the planet is terrified of the US and what they can do militarily and economically. That's why they are so powerful.
The US spend (according to the Pentagon) $365bn a year on defence which is 60% more than the next six biggest nations combined. The next biggest being Russia. No one is going destroy you.
The UK has had a serious conflict situation of its own for the past 30 years. We have also had many bombs of a middle eastern origin. The way to solve the situation is not to return the bombs, although I admit negotiating with people who have killed is pretty unsavoury, do you want peace or victory, the two are often different.
Also the humanitarian effort is propoganda, which is what the piece is about and the way the private corporate media are so obedient. Also please note that when we talk of `America` we talk about your establishment state, your government, not the people, not you.
But just take the states that have joined the `coalition`. The majority are highly murderous, especially of their own citizens. Once again we talk of governments not civillians. The genocidal Indonesians, backed and supported in mass murder of between 2 and 5 million by the UK and the US for 35 years, the Algerians currently the most murderous government on the planet, Russia who's former KGB man has held two campaigns in Chechnya that has killed 200,000 civillians according to the UN, Prince Abdullah of Saudi a US/UK protectorate created and dominated by the west who muder opposition, Jiang Zemin the butcher of Tibet, Ariel Saron who commanded the killing of thousands of Palestininas at Sabra & Chatilla but also killed hundreds of British troops after WW2, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan & Turkmenistan mafia states run by the opium industry and Pakistan a nuclaer military dicatorship.
No one is doubting the need to bring maniacs like OBL to justice, the left have been going on about OBL for years, like we did about Kosovo and Bosnia and as we are doing now about Colombia, Sudan, Western Sahara, Aceh, Burma, Irin Jaya, Kashmir, central america, the collapse of the Congo, the power of the global drug trade and money laundering.
But we need to do this through a democratic UN with an International Court of Justice as proposed and voted for by all but three countries time and time again (with abstentions too) stopping its implementation. They are the US, the UK and Isreal (also El Salvador have voted against before). US directly state that the reason they do not want an international court is because they refuse to be tried under it.
If you read magazines like Foreign Affairs or Foreign Policy Review you will see time and time again that the general outlook of the US's foreign policy elite is that they are threatened (as they thought before Sept 11th) more by China and the UN than Islam. I would have thought those views are being realigned right now.
The reason that China threatens the US is that it will become economically strong enough to dominate the whole asian region through such moves as entry to the WTO but the reason the UN threatens the US is that it threatens democratising international relations which cannot happen in their eyes and the other members of the `Security Council` the UK, China, Russia and France.
With an international court that has everyones interests at heart, not the interests of one or more of the most powerful nation states, then murderers like OBL can be brought to justice in the same way domestic criminals are brought to justice after often very long and exhaustive searching.
Simply to throw all this away and just say well, a bit of collateral damage is fine, do what our leaders say, take it out of all previous context, ignore important evidence does us all a disservice especially for the future.
Phew...my fingers...
ap
Darin - you seem to be criticising a different piece. Where does it say that those who helped commit the acts of Sept 11th shouldnt be brought to justice? Where does it show support for OBL?
I think you are confusing a desire to do the best thing with a desire to do what our leaders say, which may not be the same thing.
No one is going to destroy the USA. Every nation state on the planet is terrified of the US and what they can do militarily and economically. That's why they are so powerful.
The US spend (according to the Pentagon) $365bn a year on defence which is 60% more than the next six biggest nations combined. The next biggest being Russia. No one is going destroy you.
The UK has had a serious conflict situation of its own for the past 30 years. We have also had many bombs of a middle eastern origin. The way to solve the situation is not to return the bombs, although I admit negotiating with people who have killed is pretty unsavoury, do you want peace or victory, the two are often different.
Also the humanitarian effort is propoganda, which is what the piece is about and the way the private corporate media are so obedient. Also please note that when we talk of `America` we talk about your establishment state, your government, not the people, not you.
But just take the states that have joined the `coalition`. The majority are highly murderous, especially of their own citizens. Once again we talk of governments not civillians. The genocidal Indonesians, backed and supported in mass murder of between 2 and 5 million by the UK and the US for 35 years, the Algerians currently the most murderous government on the planet, Russia who's former KGB man has held two campaigns in Chechnya that has killed 200,000 civillians according to the UN, Prince Abdullah of Saudi a US/UK protectorate created and dominated by the west who muder opposition, Jiang Zemin the butcher of Tibet, Ariel Saron who commanded the killing of thousands of Palestininas at Sabra & Chatilla but also killed hundreds of British troops after WW2, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan & Turkmenistan mafia states run by the opium industry and Pakistan a nuclaer military dicatorship.
No one is doubting the need to bring maniacs like OBL to justice, the left have been going on about OBL for years, like we did about Kosovo and Bosnia and as we are doing now about Colombia, Sudan, Western Sahara, Aceh, Burma, Irin Jaya, Kashmir, central america, the collapse of the Congo, the power of the global drug trade and money laundering.
But we need to do this through a democratic UN with an International Court of Justice as proposed and voted for by all but three countries time and time again (with abstentions too) stopping its implementation. They are the US, the UK and Isreal (also El Salvador have voted against before). US directly state that the reason they do not want an international court is because they refuse to be tried under it.
If you read magazines like Foreign Affairs or Foreign Policy Review you will see time and time again that the general outlook of the US's foreign policy elite is that they are threatened (as they thought before Sept 11th) more by China and the UN than Islam. I would have thought those views are being realigned right now.
The reason that China threatens the US is that it will become economically strong enough to dominate the whole asian region through such moves as entry to the WTO but the reason the UN threatens the US is that it threatens democratising international relations which cannot happen in their eyes and the other members of the `Security Council` the UK, China, Russia and France.
With an international court that has everyones interests at heart, not the interests of one or more of the most powerful nation states, then murderers like OBL can be brought to justice in the same way domestic criminals are brought to justice after often very long and exhaustive searching.
Simply to throw all this away and just say well, a bit of collateral damage is fine, do what our leaders say, take it out of all previous context, ignore important evidence does us all a disservice especially for the future.
Phew...my fingers...
ap
