17 year old private school student cleared of friend's murder

[Part 2]

Has anyone else been following this? It happened not far from where I'm currently living and my son was familiar with one of the boys so the incident and court case have been a conversation point.

Teenager cleared of murdering private school pupil Yousef Makki

Yousef Makki murder trial: Two boys found NOT GUILTY over fatal stabbing

I was surprised straight off that the lad got bailed on a murder charge, which seems very rare and given he appeared to claim self defence I thought they should've changed the charge to menslaughter. It seemed to me there was never any chance of securing a murder conviction and at least then the victims family might feel like they'd come away with something. As it is they look to have been failed.

Anyone got any insight?

 

[Combustible]

I thought that for charges of murder, the jury can also be asked to consider manslaughter at the judge's discretion.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

claim self defence

If that claim was believed there is no manslaughter either, it's legitimate to kill in self defence (usual boat-happy caveats apply).

 

[Part 2]

If that claim was believed there is no manslaughter either, it's legitimate to kill in self defence (usual boat-happy caveats apply).

Ah, I'd thought a manslaughter charge would be easier to prove than intent to seriously harm.

Maybe it's down to money and/or fucked up process then.

Do the family have a right to ask for an inquiry into evidence provided and to see due process was followed? I imagine that would be very expensive. It all seems to have been done very quickly given the incident only happened 4 months ago.

 

[emanymton]

Has anyone else been following this? It happened not far from where I'm currently living and my son was familiar with one of the boys so the incident and court case have been a conversation point.

Teenager cleared of murdering private school pupil Yousef Makki

Yousef Makki murder trial: Two boys found NOT GUILTY over fatal stabbing

I was surprised straight off that the lad got bailed on a murder charge, which seems very rare and given he appeared to claim self defence I thought they should've changed the charge to menslaughter. It seemed to me there was never any chance of securing a murder conviction and at least then the victims family might feel like they'd come away with something. As it is they look to have been failed.

Anyone got any insight?

I don't mean to be picky. But you could try reading the articles you link to.
From the Guardian article.

There were angry scenes in Manchester crown court as the defendant, referred to as Boy A, was found not guilty of both murder and manslaughter.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Do the family have a right to ask for an inquiry into evidence provided and to see due process was followed? I imagine that would be very expensive. It all seems to have been done very quickly given the incident only happened 4 months ago.

No idea, doubt it. Private prosecution possible I suppose, but probably wouldn't get off the ground. A thorough look at the investigation would most likely show bias from the start, rather than 'scumbags being scumbags, let's look 'em up' the law's attitude is often very different when dealing with 'our betters'.

 

[Part 2]

I don't mean to be picky. But you could try reading the articles you link to.
From the Guardian article.

My apologies. There's been no mention of manslaughter throughout so I'd missed that.

 

[19force8]

What's the minimum sentence for carrying a knife?

Also, for carrying a knife with intent to wound? *

* Since they conspired to use them in an attempt to rob a drug dealer.

Had this happened 15 miles to the north both surviving boys would have been sent down for many years.

 

[Spymaster]

Had this happened 15 miles to the north both surviving boys would have been sent down for many years.

And rightly so.

 

[josef1878 2.0]

Private school student on a bursury pulls knife on friend and ends up dead. I found the verdicts odd as well

 

[Dogsauce]

Judge’s summing up makes it sound like they were just cosplaying gangsters rather than actually robbing and stabbing. Something quite strange and unsettling about it, this doesn’t feel like justice.

 

[QueenOfGoths]

Hang on they were also found not guilty of conspiracy to commit robbery when they had gone to rob someone. Okay it does say allegedly in the report but it seems to have been a main feature to explain what they doing with the knives at that point.

Something seems seriously fucked up about this. Did the prosecution mess up? Did the police mess up?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I think this is all the insight you need:

During a four-week trial in court, the jury heard the defendants led "double lives", from their families and background, with Alastair Webster, Boy A's barrister, calling them "middle class gangsters".

The court heard the stabbing was an "accident waiting to happen" as all three indulged in "idiotic fantasies", and posted videos on social media making threats and posing with knives.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Judge’s summing up makes it sound like they were just cosplaying gangsters rather than actually robbing and stabbing. Something quite strange and unsettling about it, this doesn’t feel like justice.

Well except the events leading up to the stabbing saw a botched attempt to rob a drug dealer that led to the row that led to the stabbing.

Had this gang been poor black kids I suspect the ‘self defence’ defence would have cut less ice but the fact remain all were carrying and boy A and the victim both pulled them

 

[Part 2]

Something seems seriously fucked up about this. Did the prosecution mess up? Did the police mess up?

There's been a few things that seem out of the ordinary besides being on bail for murder. The process appears to have been over with very quickly, just over 4 months between the incident and verdict, bearing in mind also 4 weeks of that has been the court case. There was also a day off in the middle of the trial where there were 'discussions'...I'm not sure how unusual that is.

the fact remain all were carrying and boy A and the victim both pulled them

Don't we only have Boy A's says so that the victim pulled the knife on him?

It appears a petition has been started for a retrial....1400 signatures in the last 12 hours.

 

[Part 2]

Had this happened 15 miles to the north both surviving boys would have been sent down for many years.

It would've only needed to be 2 miles away tbf....or for it to have been one of the 2 Hale Boys killed while on the victims turf rather than the other way round.

 

[TopCat]

Up there with the Guardsman getting a suspended for Murder.

 

[Dogsauce]

Would like to see how far a couple of Tottenham lads would get with the ‘idiotic fantasies’ defence.

 

[Spymaster]

Something seems seriously fucked up about this. Did the prosecution mess up? Did the police mess up?

It sounds like one of those cases where the full facts haven’t been reported.

If one lad pulled a knife and attacked the other, who then pulled a knife and stabbed the attacker to death, that’s self defence and he could be acquitted of wrongdoing. It seems the jury was convinced that this was the case. It’s not one lad’s word against the other either because there was a third boy there, so perhaps he has corroborated the self defence. Where it gets weird is that they are all carrying knives and they seem to have completely got away with that despite it ending in a death.

The reporting is rubbish though.

 

[Proper Tidy]

It sounds like one of those cases where the full facts haven’t been reported.

If one lad pulled a knife and attacked the other, who then pulled a knife and stabbed the attacker to death, that’s self defence and he could be acquitted of wrongdoing. It seems the jury was convinced that this was the case. It’s not one lad’s word against the other either because there was a third boy there, so perhaps he has corroborated the self defence. Where it gets weird is that they are all carrying knives and they seem to have completely got away with that despite it ending in a death.

The reporting is rubbish though.

All this may be true but the judges comments on the 'dual lives' and how sad it is that middle class kids listen to drill and call each other fam are... concerning

 

[Steel Icarus]

It sounds like one of those cases where the full facts haven’t been reported.

If one lad pulled a knife and attacked the other, who then pulled a knife and stabbed the attacker to death, that’s self defence and he could be acquitted of wrongdoing. It seems the jury was convinced that this was the case. It’s not one lad’s word against the other either because there was a third boy there, so perhaps he has corroborated the self defence. Where it gets weird is that they are all carrying knives and they seem to have completely got away with that despite it ending in a death.

If it's an illegal act - i.e. carrying an offensive weapon - that led to a death you have a very good case for involuntary manslaughter.

 

[Athos]

It sounds like one of those cases where the full facts haven’t been reported.

If one lad pulled a knife and attacked the other, who then pulled a knife and stabbed the attacker to death, that’s self defence and he could be acquitted of wrongdoing. It seems the jury was convinced that this was the case. It’s not one lad’s word against the other either because there was a third boy there, so perhaps he has corroborated the self defence. Where it gets weird is that they are all carrying knives and they seem to have completely got away with that despite it ending in a death.

The reporting is rubbish though.

They both pleaded guilty to possession of the knives and await sentencing.

 

[Spymaster]

All this may be true but the judges comments on the 'dual lives' and how sad it is that middle class kids listen to drill and call each other fam are... concerning

That wasn't the judge. It was one of the defendants barrister.

 

[Spymaster]

They were convicted for possession of the knives and await sentencing.

Cheers.

In that case there's possibly not much wrong with what's happened here but you can't know without more detail.

 

[Athos]

Cheers.

In that case there's possibly not much wrong with what's happened here but you can't know without more detail.

I'd edited my post as you were quoting; they entered guilty pleas for the possession.

 

[likesfish]

They weren't trapped in a gang by circumstance or finances.
No doubt evidence was produced of gangsta cos play

Play stupid games win stupid prizes

 

[planetgeli]

It’s not one lad’s word against the other either because there was a third boy there, so perhaps he has corroborated the self defence. Where it gets weird is that they are all carrying knives and they seem to have completely got away with that despite it ending in a death.

The reporting is rubbish though.

But that third lad is being done (guilty of) perverting the course of justice because according to the MEN he told police someone else (I.e none of the lads involved) was responsible for the stabbing. Which he’s obviously now has admitted was a lie.

The time this has taken from offence to trial is astounding.

 

[Spymaster]

Which he’s obviously now has admitted was a lie.

That's the point. If he's admitted lying in the first instance and said that what actually happened is that the dead boy attacked Boy A with a knife and got killed whilst doing so, he'd have corroborated the self defense and Boy A would, reasonably, be not guilty of murder or manslaughter.

 

[Proper Tidy]

That wasn't the judge. It was one of the defendants barrister.

Ah fair enough my mistake

 

[planetgeli]

That's the point. If he's admitted lying in the first instance and said that what actually happened is that the dead boy attacked Boy A with a knife and got killed whilst doing so, he'd have corroborated the self defense and Boy A would, reasonably, be not guilty of murder or manslaughter.

Sure. Just for me that requires believing a self-confessed liar hasn’t colluded with his mate the killer in order to get his mate off. Like he got his first story wrong and his mate has gone “No, say this happened stupid”.