17-year-old girl facing jail because of G20

[Azrael]

Rational? Sensible? Constructive? I guess not but, IMHO we could do with more like her and then we may end up with a country where the ruling class are more reluctant to fuck the rest of us up the arse.

What did the girl achieve? The cost of the damage won't be a blip on the radar of the bank's insurance, and by smashing a few windows in front of a crowd of journalists, she's lived the cliché and helped the police to legitimise mass-detention.

If we had "more like her", we'd have even more draconian policing and bloodied streets.

 

[sunshine1]

What did the girl achieve? The cost of the damage won't be a blip on the radar of the bank's insurance, and by smashing a few windows in front of a crowd of journalists, she's lived the cliché and helped the police to legitimise mass-detention.

If we had "more like her", we'd have even more draconian policing and bloodied streets.

So lie down take the shit handed out is your answer is it; fine. In the meantime more people on the dole, more people sleeping on the streets, children starving, mothers weeping! One man has been killed by by this particularly brutal police force and agents provocateurs. What did this girl achieve? She posted notice on an economic system that creates chaos and, by its very nature is always in crisis, but we pay the price whilst they get the money!

 

[paulhackett]

I'd be more inclined to support a protest like the PETA one, not for the cause necessarily, but because it makes a more forceful point to me than what can be cast aside as 'drunk 17 year old', who I'm afraid to the wider audience, the people whose opinions need to be changed, is how she may be perceived.

Seemed to me to be police, media and protestors in equal numbers, which says to me, the protest was not as effective as in the past. There is no shock in a broken window..

And to me the media are worse than the police.

People in cages next time would be far more thought provoking to the wider audience.

 

[Azrael]

So lie down take the shit handed out is your answer is it; fine.

Erm, nope, I don't have an "answer". I just believe that smashing a few windows isn't it. I doubt RBS will give two hoots about a "notice" delivered by smashing up a few windows. Beyond this, what have the vandals achieved?

And as you clearly know of cases where children are starving, I trust you'll inform the authorities ASAP.

 

[sunshine1]

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

"All that is solid melts into air" as Marx put it. The lesson is that nothing is permanent including capitalism itself.

 

[TomPaine]

My concern though for the 17 year old is that, she is in the system now and it may well fuck her up in the near future with regards to jobs/university etc. not exactly a good position to be in at 17 during a recession.

 

[badco]

My concern though for the 17 year old is that, she is in the system now and it may well fuck her up in the near future with regards to jobs/university etc.

More fool her

 

[Azrael]

My concern though for the 17 year old is that, she is in the system now and it may well fuck her up in the near future with regards to jobs/university etc. not exactly a good position to be in at 17 during a recession.

This is one of the many reasons that I think the justice system should be significantly different for juveniles.

Some US states seal the criminal records of minors. A good idea.

 

[TomPaine]

I also wonder how many folks where egging her on (looked like there was a lot of press round there).

 

[free spirit]

My concern though for the 17 year old is that, she is in the system now and it may well fuck her up in the near future with regards to jobs/university etc. not exactly a good position to be in at 17 during a recession.

yep.

I was in a van with 2 fairly hysterical 17(ish) year old girls when I got nicked at mayday 2000. They'd been nicked for spraypainting, caught with spray paints in their bag, paint on their hands etc. at their first ever demo, having never read a bust card or have any idea what they'd got themselves into... just naively going with the flow and not thinking about any consequences. Luckily the police left us in the van alone for a few minutes so I got chance to talk them through some of the basics (say nothing until they got a solicitor etc), but still reckon the police will probably have bullied a confession out of them in 30 seconds flat... no idea what happened to them, but that was the year someone got 6 months for putting a grass mohican on churchills statue, so I can imagine they may well have had problems.

 

[free spirit]

I also wonder how many folks where egging her on (looked like there was a lot of press round there).

part of the problem with all the press being there is that they essentially isolated these few kids from the rest of the protestors, so that older wiser heads couldn't intervene.

 

[sunshine1]

Erm, nope, I don't have an "answer". I just believe that smashing a few windows isn't it. I doubt RBS will give two hoots about a "notice" delivered by smashing up a few windows. Beyond this, what have the vandals achieved?

And as you clearly know of cases where children are starving, I trust you'll inform the authorities ASAP.

Last year it was widely reported that in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets 27,000 children live in poverty, that my friend I suggest is one of the crimes of capitalism that this young girl, barely an adult herself decided to make a stand against; and yes I do give her applause!

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

And as you clearly know of cases where children are starving, I trust you'll inform the authorities ASAP.

No need - Save the Children has already informed them.

""We are seeing an element of malnutrition. When we work overseas, we deal with two forms – severe malnutrition and stunting, which happens when the mother hasn't got proper nutrition when she's pregnant and when the children don't get proper food in the first two years of their lives, which causes damage from which they never recover. We're seeing this stunting here too now. The lack of nutrition in pregnancy and the number of underweight babies is as high as in some developing countries," Marshall said."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/apr/06/poverty-uk-charity-aid

 

[Azrael]

Last year it was widely reported that in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets 27,000 children live in poverty, that my friend I suggest is one of the crimes of capitalism that this young girl, barely an adult herself decided to make a stand against; and yes I do give her applause!

So again, how has the girl actually helped this fight against capitalism? So far as I can see, all she's done is help the police to justify "kettling" by confirming their predictions of violent protestors.

No need - Save the Children has already informed them.

Starvation isn't the same thing as malnutrition. Where are the children starving to death?

And about malnutirition, Collette Marshall, of Save the Children, said: "We know that parents are buying fill-up food rather than nutritious fruit and vegetables, because they're so expensive." My local market has very cheap fruit and vegetables. Ms Marshall doesn't explain in detail how a combination of Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit/dole is insufficient to buy fruit'n'veg.

 

[agricola]

And about malnutirition, Collette Marshall, of Save the Children, said: "We know that parents are buying fill-up food rather than nutritious fruit and vegetables, because they're so expensive." My local market has very cheap fruit and vegetables. Ms Marshall doesn't explain in detail how a combination of Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit/dole is insufficient to buy fruit'n'veg.

She probably assumes the things that she is told (either first-hand or at the second or third remove) by the people who invariably say such things are actually true - which in some senses it is, after all you cant really afford fruit and veg when you have to buy booze and fags, and its also difficult to get the kids the food thats good for them rather than the food they demand.

If there is a problem with child malnutrition in this country it will be, in nearly every case, not down to a lack of money on behalf of the parent(s), but because of other issues (drug addiction for instance).

 

[sunshine1]

Why shouldn't young people stand up and be counted, after all commentaters have made forecasts that the young in particular will be pushed out of the labour market by the global downturn. With many anticipating an increase in youth unemployment - to levels last seen in the early 1980s, when riots swept many inner-city areas-the Guardian reported that "Brown was concerned by the recent youth riots in Greece, and feard someting similar could develop in Britain." Lets hope not but I fear the worst is yet to come!

 

[TomPaine]

but because of other issues (drug addiction for instance).

Or in some cases just a lack of knowledge regarding nutrition and healthy eating.

 

[sunshine1]

She probably assumes the things that she is told (either first-hand or at the second or third remove) by the people who invariably say such things are actually true - which in some senses it is, after all you cant really afford fruit and veg when you have to buy booze and fags, and its also difficult to get the kids the food thats good for them rather than the food they demand.

If there is a problem with child malnutrition in this country it will be, in nearly every case, not down to a lack of money on behalf of the parent(s), but because of other issues (drug addiction for instance).

Can you back this up with facts? If so lets have them now?

 

[Azrael]

Can you back this up with facts? If so lets have them now?

Had someone like that living next door to me for about two years. She called endlessly asking for goods and money. But she had the money for the alcopop empties and McDonald's boxes that piled up outside her house, and the car that was involved in several collisions during her residence. Perhaps the "boyfriend" paid for them, when she wasn't accusing him of assault. Maybe not. There was definitely 24/7 screaming at the children, and assault claims flying around. Detective cars turned up on a regular basis, the officers invariably holding clipboards, either containing a statement form or a search warrant. Maybe both. She was eventually evicted for non-payment of rent. In the words of her landlord, "Everything smashed."

I imagine that's the sort of thing agricola's talking about. Couldn't comment about how common it is. I'd like to think my experience was exceptional, I really would.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

What did the girl achieve? The cost of the damage won't be a blip on the radar of the bank's insurance, and by smashing a few windows in front of a crowd of journalists, she's lived the cliché and helped the police to legitimise mass-detention.

If we had "more like her", we'd have even more draconian policing and bloodied streets.

arse about face the window was smashed because of mass detention not to vaildiate it... if anythign it's an argument to say there was considerable insightment by the actions of the police...

 

[Azrael]

You're claiming police officers coerced their girl and her accomplices, or directly incited them?

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

And about malnutirition, Collette Marshall, of Save the Children, said: "We know that parents are buying fill-up food rather than nutritious fruit and vegetables, because they're so expensive." My local market has very cheap fruit and vegetables.

Then you are very lucky.

In poor areas, there are few markets or local shops which sell fresh fruit and veg; people budget weekly so rely less on supermarket trips which are expensive; dont have access to gardens where they can grow their own; many dont have the knowledge or skills to make food from scratch, or the additions - like herbs and spices - that make bland veg palitable.

People who are struggling to feed their children make their children things that they know their children will eat, there isnt the room to experiment with food as its a big part of their expenditure. Rubbishy food (its a misnomer to call it "cheap") is more accessible, looks more substantial, gets less complaints from the kids, is easier to prepare and requires no additional ingredients (except a bit of ketchup).

Ms Marshall doesn't explain in detail how a combination of Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit/dole is insufficient to buy fruit'n'veg.

But she does paint the broad brushstrokes - debt and inflation.

People have piled debt on that they could easily service in the good times, encouraged by easy money on the never never and the ridiculous price of property driven up by easy credit and irresponsible lending but have hit a buffer (redundancy, nesteggs gone down the plughole, rising food and energy costs) which means that they are seriously struggling - keeping a roof over their heads, keeping their homes warm and keeping food in the fridge have become competing priorities rather than the basics that people just take for granted.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

If there is a problem with child malnutrition in this country it will be, in nearly every case, not down to a lack of money on behalf of the parent(s), but because of other issues (drug addiction for instance).

No, that's really not true. Some people just can't afford to eat or feed their kids properly because they don't have enough money. I suppose if they were expert cooks with professional-grade time management skills and Shaolin asceticism to deny any wordly needs of their own, a few more would be able to, but not even all of them.

 

[Kaka Tim]

No, that's really not true. Some people just can't afford to eat or feed their kids properly because they don't have enough money. I suppose if they were expert cooks with professional-grade time management skills and Shaolin asceticism to deny any wordly needs of their own, a few more would be able to, but not even all of them.

Indeed - Ive plenty of parents on benefits who regualrly dont serve a plate for themselves then eat whatever the kids leave. Benefits levels allow you enough to just about survive - provided you dont have to buy clothes, pay bills or travel anywhere.

 

[sunshine1]

Here's the answer!

 

[Azrael]

In poor areas, there are few markets or local shops which sell fresh fruit and veg [...]

I don't live in a rich area (moderate, at best) and live close to some very poor areas. The market I refer to isn't in a rich area either.

[Ms Marshall] does paint the broad brushstrokes - debt and inflation.

That's the problem: broad brushstrokes can easily be filled in with assumptions.

My neighbour must have begged over 30 quid off me, delivered in £1-2 installments. Every time, it was to feed her children, and would be paid back. I knew both parts were, in all likelihood, lies, but it didn't seem much, and I felt sympathetic. When I finally refused to lend more until the debt was paid off (it never was, of course) I was clear that she was welcome to have food for the children. The frequent visits ended. All she asked for over the next year and a half was an onion! Alcopop bottles and fast-food cartons continued to pile up.

Lack of money clearly wasn't her major problem; instead it was her inability to manage money, and the rest of her chaotic life. However much cash was thrown at her, I doubt it would have helped.

Now, if her situation is anything like common, it could lie behind Ms Marshall's claim that parents can't afford to feed their children. Or maybe it doesn't. All I know is that I'd need to see details from Ms Marshall before I accepted her claims. But to investigate, Ms Marshall would have to be wise to the messier parts of human nature. Again, perhaps she is, but I've seen many people writing in the Guardian who aren't.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

i'd chop her fucking hands off myself, that would teach her

 

[paolo]

someone got 6 months for putting a grass mohican on churchills statue

I was about to doubt that she'd get custodial... but fs, is that true? (no reason to doubt you on your rep)

 

[Azrael]

i'd chop her fucking hands off myself, that would teach her

So you're suggesting that it would help to give her more money?

I'm not moaning about the loss of £30 (I knew I'd be unlikely to see it again when I handed it over), I'm using it to illustrate that, at least in one case, the situation can't be reduced to economic poverty.

 

[agricola]

In poor areas, there are few markets or local shops which sell fresh fruit and veg; people budget weekly so rely less on supermarket trips which are expensive; dont have access to gardens where they can grow their own; many dont have the knowledge or skills to make food from scratch, or the additions - like herbs and spices - that make bland veg palitable.

Not being daft here, and maybe its just me only knowing North Wales / Merseyside and bits of London, but this does not ring true to me. I cant think of one area I know that is "poor" which does not have access to markets or local shops that sell fresh fruit and veg.

No, that's really not true. Some people just can't afford to eat or feed their kids properly because they don't have enough money. I suppose if they were expert cooks with professional-grade time management skills and Shaolin asceticism to deny any wordly needs of their own, a few more would be able to, but not even all of them.

Maybe, but I have never met anyone like that (though admittedly one probably wouldnt find someone who would admit to it either).