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14th November Movement for Left Unity

Defend the workers EU from Powerful UKIP, blah blah blah...

I find it sickening, incidentally, that LU has decided not to stand candidates this year but has received airtime on the daily politics and print space in the New Shitesman, while in four years of standing candidates TUSC has had nothing. I know I should expect it, I don't even know why I'm annoyed in a way since I'd expect nothing less, but it speaks volumes about both the media and LU imo.
 
SpackleFrog said:
Defend the workers EU from Powerful UKIP, blah blah blah...

I find it sickening, incidentally, that LU has decided not to stand candidates this year but has received airtime on the daily politics and print space in the New Shitesman, while in four years of standing candidates TUSC has had nothing. I know I should expect it, I don't even know why I'm annoyed in a way since I'd expect nothing less, but it speaks volumes about both the media and LU imo.
Click to expand...
why do you think it is? how did they get on tv?
 
ska invita said:
why do you think it is? how did they get on tv?
Click to expand...

Although Ken Loach seems to have taken a bit of a back seat, I suspect that they have a couple of media connections they've been able to use. In addition, I don't think-and I say this because they are in effect adopting a strategy of talking amongst existing lefties about what the party should be and doing zero campaigning as a party-that they will develop at all, and as such they are "safe" to cover.
 
my thoughts are
- if they have media connections then good luck to them (i say them, ive signed up, so, er good luck to us :hmm:)
- the process right now is still forming the party, and Im glad it is being done slowly and with high levels of democracy - all the campaigning, electioneering and hopefully not-writing-a-paper is bound to come, but its only right to get to that once all the grassroots members have agreed what the party really stands for. its too soon to do anything else. one conference rattling through policies wasnt enough to finish that work
-are they getting coverage because LU is safe whilst TUSC is hardcore? Maybe...I dont think so though. I went through a phase of watching Daily Politics every day on iplayer and I might be wrong but i swear Ive seen someone from TUSC on before - they do have a big range of people on that show - its a lot of airtime to fill ;)
 
ska invita said:
here we go, Dave Nellist has been on (at least) once:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/8637620.stm
Bob Crow was on a few times
Click to expand...

Yep, Nellist got about a minute. Bob Crow was on QT once or twice.

It's a nice idea, this 'build the perfect party' schtick, but I think it's pretty obvious that people with very little experience of standing in elections trying to create this party isn't working out. If you think you need to sort out your political position on the UN and EU Migration Caps before you stand for a local council seat, chances are you're in trouble. Have they considered when they wrote their very nice political position on the EU and migration for example, how they would actually communicate that on the doorstep?

"Well, I'm not a racist but I wonder if we can cope with all these immigrants."

"Right, well, we defend the steps towards open borders which the EU represents."

"I see."

It's all backwards - a bit like learning to swim without getting in the water.
 
SpackleFrog said:
Yep, Nellist got about a minute. Bob Crow was on QT once or twice.

It's a nice idea, this 'build the perfect party' schtick, but I think it's pretty obvious that people with very little experience of standing in elections trying to create this party isn't working out. If you think you need to sort out your political position on the UN and EU Migration Caps before you stand for a local council seat, chances are you're in trouble. Have they considered when they wrote their very nice political position on the EU and migration for example, how they would actually communicate that on the doorstep?

"Well, I'm not a racist but I wonder if we can cope with all these immigrants."

"Right, well, we defend the steps towards open borders which the EU represents."

"I see."

It's all backwards - a bit like learning to swim without getting in the water.
Click to expand...
They aren't campaigning, so they don't have to defend it on the doorstep, and there's the problem in a nutshell.
Lu is a project which places itself firmly in a reformist tradition. It's conference rejected utopian motions in favour of realistic goals ( no 21 hour week etc.),
And yet it has rejected any involvement in the electoral struggle, 'this year' and so it's practical political arena is on the demo, protest,petition circuit historically claimed by the Trotskyist groups.
They have room there because of the collapse of the SWPs hegemony, they have no serious rival for the wooly liberal left audience, an ageing and shrinking grouping(it is no accident that, among the plethora of caucus representing the various minority groups within lu, the latest newsletter appeals for people willing to set up black, Asian and youth caucuses- LU is predominately white and middle aged).
This audience rarely steps out of it own bubble where the bbc (hated by the Tories) is wonderful, the EU (hated by the Tories) is smashing, and social services are a career ladder rather than a broken lifeline.
Genuine concern for the plight of the poor is an altruistic philanthropic pursuit, not a shared act of solidarity.
 
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SpackleFrog said:
It's a nice idea, this 'build the perfect party' schtick, but I think it's pretty obvious that people with very little experience of standing in elections trying to create this party isn't working out. If you think you need to sort out your political position on the UN and EU Migration Caps before you stand for a local council seat, chances are you're in trouble. Have they considered when they wrote their very nice political position on the EU and migration for example, how they would actually communicate that on the doorstep?
Click to expand...
The key thing for me about LU is the grassroots democracy that is hard wired into the party structure. The point of such bottom up democracy is not to "build the perfect party", direct democracy still can come to bad decisions, but the point is when things need to change the members will be able to act on it, and wont be locked out of the process by their leaders/vanguard.

If you want to build a party structure democratically it takes time. As W Bush said ''If this were a dictatorship it would be a heck of a lot easier". What has kept me out of political parties in the past is distrust in the leadership/hierarchy, and thats a structural issue. Whatever else people may think about LU I think that should be applauded.

Inevitably once LU get out there it will become a feedback loop, and the democratic structure will allow that feedback to evolve the party much better than a traditional vanguard model would.
barney_pig said:
This audience rarely steps out of it own bubble where the bbc (hated by the Tories) is wonderful, the EU (hated by the Tories) is smashing, and social services are a career ladder rather than a broken lifeline.
Genuine concern for the plight of the poor is an altruistic philanthropic pursuit, not a shared act of solidarity.
Click to expand...
Harsh - cant see how you are able to know the views of all these hundreds of members so well, ive barely any idea who is in the party yet. If anyone sees social services as a career ladder its Tusc. "Genuine concern for the plight of the poor is an altruistic philanthropic pursuit, not a shared act of solidarity" <why do you say that? Based on what?

Whoever the "early adopters" of the party are at the moment isnt to me the point (currently includes people from groups i would normally stay well clear of) - the point is the party has the potential to be entered and steered by whoever wants in - which if does manage to break out of the existing left bubble would make it a possibly really interesting entity. It is the potential of the party that interests me, rather than its current state...
 
SpackleFrog said:
Yep, Nellist got about a minute. Bob Crow was on QT once or twice.

It's a nice idea, this 'build the perfect party' schtick, but I think it's pretty obvious that people with very little experience of standing in elections trying to create this party isn't working out. If you think you need to sort out your political position on the UN and EU Migration Caps before you stand for a local council seat, chances are you're in trouble. Have they considered when they wrote their very nice political position on the EU and migration for example, how they would actually communicate that on the doorstep?

"Well, I'm not a racist but I wonder if we can cope with all these immigrants."

"Right, well, we defend the steps towards open borders which the EU represents."

"I see."

It's all backwards - a bit like learning to swim without getting in the water.
Click to expand...
You're aware that no borders is actually the SP position as well?
 
J Ed said:
Open borders is a stupid position, I wouldn't vote for anyone who advocated it if I thought they had any chance of coming to power nor would 99% of people. It's hard to think of a more alienating political policy.
Click to expand...
Amazing really that the basic human right to free movement and settlement is the "most alienating political policy" you can think of.
 
Where both TUSC and lu have it wrong IMO - and the reason they'll both fail (well, one of the reasons anyway) is that they're obsessed with finding a platform around which they can unite 'the left' - lu do it with faux-democracy, TUSC do it via more honest stitch ups - but what neither have recognised thus far is that what's needed is a progressive platform to unite the working class. Until there's a realisation that the program or whatever you call it has to be built around the working class's self-identified needs - at the level of the council ward if necessary - nobody will get anywhere (IWCA came closest and I'd love to have a discussion about the reasons behind its successes and failure to spread but we've not managed that yet really). But this would involve the admission that 'the left' is essentially irrelevant these days. (Which means both the obsession with uniting it and with blaming it for all the world's ills is the mark of a fuckwit and it would mean a crisis of identity for a lot of people).

The two things I will say in defence of TUSC - even though I think it's a strategy doomed to failure and have said as much internally and externally (unlike articul8 if I think something's bullshit I won't just say it internally, or pretend I did afterwards, I'll be honest about it to everyone) - is that I'd rather we were standing - how ever badly - and offering some kind of left alternative than leaving UKIP as the only protest vote and I'm glad the nuance of no racist immigration controls is in there. 1) because if you're a party with no chance of getting beyond a couple of council seats and maybe if there's a miracle an MP it doesn't fucking matter what your line is on immigration so you might as well phrase it in a way that doesn't alienate and 2) if they ever did get further - into government - they would either have to impose very strict border controls or be completely unable to deliver anything they've promised and remain in government for about the same amount of time as it takes me to do a fart - I'll give some credit though - I mean one of my really long farts, the ones that last about 20 seconds and scare the dog.
 
Lo Siento. said:
Amazing really that the basic human right to free movement and settlement is the "most alienating political policy" you can think of.
Click to expand...

Open borders isn't free movement and settlement it's movement and settlement at the behest of capital. And while it might not be alienating to you (and it isn't alienating to me really) unless the people down the pub, the lads at the football and the lads at work are a unique case open borders is pretty alienating for them. I know cos I used to try and argue it and ended up giving up cos they just took the piss and it was making them less likely to take me seriously on stuff where they did agree.
 
SpineyNorman said:
Open borders isn't free movement and settlement it's movement and settlement at the behest of capital.
Click to expand...
No, it's free movement of people. People who can make their own minds up. Just cos at the moment it suits capital as well is irrelevant. The football, the pub and work are all things done 'at the behest of capital' as well, since we live in a capitalist society.
 
belboid said:
No, it's free movement of people. People who can make their own minds up. Just cos at the moment it suits capital as well is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

No it's not. It's totally relevant.

We don't have "free" movement of labour we have the movement of labour as a result of people following labour market imperatives and pressures. It doesn't just suit capital, it's an intrinsic part of modern capitalism. Why do you think there's so many Poles in England, the nice weather and cuisine or the fact there's a possibility work of here at comparatively decent wages? Did you read The Grapes of Wrath and assume it was a nice midwestern family going on a vacation to California?

We want to create a society where people aren't compelled to travel accross the world to have the chance of a half decent life, firstly by getting rid of vast global economic inequality, and by having a socialist society. Only once those conditions are met will people be free to choose where they want to live and work, rather than be compelled to by the demands of the market.
 
barney_pig said:
They aren't campaigning, so they don't have to defend it on the doorstep, and there's the problem in a nutshell.
Lu is a project which places itself firmly in a reformist tradition. It's conference rejected utopian motions in favour of realistic goals ( no 21 hour week etc.),
And yet it has rejected any involvement in the electoral struggle, 'this year' and so it's practical political arena is on the demo, protest,petition circuit historically claimed by the Trotskyist groups.
They have room there because of the collapse of the SWPs hegemony, they have no serious rival for the wooly liberal left audience, an ageing and shrinking grouping(it is no accident that, among the plethora of caucus representing the various minority groups within lu, the latest newsletter appeals for people willing to set up black, Asian and youth caucuses- LU is predominately white and middle aged).
This audience rarely steps out of it own bubble where the bbc (hated by the Tories) is wonderful, the EU (hated by the Tories) is smashing, and social services are a career ladder rather than a broken lifeline.
Genuine concern for the plight of the poor is an altruistic philanthropic pursuit, not a shared act of solidarity.
Click to expand...


How do you know, have you met them? unless they are lying 250 people joined on Friday after the Loach article, are these all the usual suspects?, read the FB page, something very new is happening and I don't think it is Socialist Alliance Mk2, lots of ex LP members are joining, many who joined after Milliband was elected, the welfare cap being the last straw. I have my doubts about their abstract policies on migration,etc, though I'm pleased they will defend migrants form the right and the gutter press. I am not joining them, not in a position to, can't even get to Unite Community meetings which i fully endorse, but would vote for them.

and Nino, as for hobby horses, you don't have any?
 
belboid said:
No, it's free movement of people. People who can make their own minds up. Just cos at the moment it suits capital as well is irrelevant. The football, the pub and work are all things done 'at the behest of capital' as well, since we live in a capitalist society.
Click to expand...

I know, I've oversimplified there and I apologise - basically agree except that this 'freedom' is severely restricted - I can't just fuck off to Germany tomorrow because I can't afford to go and I wouldn't find work - and in some cases its more like coercion than freedom. I go to the football cos I enjoy it, there's no coercion beyond my irrational love for a shit football team. The Poles I know came to England because they were dirt poor and could be a bit less dirt poor here - they have some agency of course but there are constraints and these constraints are put there by capital. One of the Poles I know from the unemployed workers centre said he wanted to live in Poland but couldn't provide for his family if he did - if that's as close to movement at the behest of capital as you're gonna get without some kind of Australia/New Caledonia style transportation policy. I'm not saying close the borders - I'm saying be honest about what 'free' movement within the EU really means.

I also think it's not that simple a question as to what position we take - under capitalism I think we should argue against all state restrictions on the movement of people (and probably in favour of restrictions on the movement of capital but I've not thought that part through) but if we got a socialist or whatever government elected there would have to be restrictions, pretty strict ones at that.

It's a very complicated question - much more complicated than the 'close the borders British workers will be better off' brigade and the 'open borders ra ra ra!' types like to present it as. And it's one I don't think we should be concerning ourselves with too much until such a time as what we think about it has some chance gaining some kind of influence.

Edit: This is a question on which I still haven't clarified my own thoughts that much - it's really not that simple - so feel free to pick holes in this - if it's discussed in the right way (ie. based on the assumption that nobody's a racist - looking at you here nino - and we're all arguing for policies that favour the w/c as a whole) this could be a productive discussion. If it's not it will be another bunfight.
 
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treelover said:
How do you know, have you met them? unless they are lying 250 people joined on Friday after the Loach article, are these all the usual suspects?
Click to expand...

Well to be fair it's 250 people who join a political party after reading a Ken Loach article in the Guardian....

what was it Nigel Irritable called it? Teachers club?


One of my old teachers was involved in setting it up iirc. He was a right prick to me, used to send me out if I was more than a few minutes late, even though I lived 90 mins and 2 bus journey's away and he lived within a brief walk of the place. I did try pointing out that this was him enforcing capitalist labour discipline and labour-time and all that EP Thompson stuff but he still had the attitude of an angry calvinist mill-owner circa 1830 every time I came in late.

In fairness I was an awful, awful student and a bastard in practically every aspect so I can't hold it against him. I feel bad for any teacher that had to deal with an 18 year old me. I wouldn't want to join his political party though....

 
SpineyNorman said:
Edit: This is a question on which I still haven't clarified my own thoughts that much - it's really not that simple - so feel free to pick holes in this - if it's discussed in the right way (ie. based on the assumption that nobody's a racist - looking at you here nino - and we're all arguing for policies that favour the w/c as a whole) this could be a productive discussion. If it's not it will be another bunfight.
Click to expand...

Its Urban, Spiney - I predict it'll be a bunfight :)
 
Delroy Booth said:
No it's not. It's totally relevant.

We don't have "free" movement of labour we have the movement of labour as a result of people following labour market imperatives and pressures. It doesn't just suit capital, it's an intrinsic part of modern capitalism. Why do you think there's so many Poles in England, the nice weather and cuisine or the fact there's a possibility work of here at comparatively decent wages? Did you read The Grapes of Wrath and assume it was a nice midwestern family going on a vacation to California?

We want to create a society where people aren't compelled to travel accross the world to have the chance of a half decent life, firstly by getting rid of vast global economic inequality, and by having a socialist society. Only once those conditions are met will people be free to choose where they want to live and work, rather than be compelled to by the demands of the market.
Click to expand...
so your only problem is with the use of the word 'free'? As we live under capitalism, nothing is truly 'freely' done (as I already said) so hould we never ever use the word? The rest of your post is just blather to cover for the fact that, at the end of the day, you support 'free' movement of labour, but dont want to say it too loudly in case people think you're mad.
 
Lo Siento. said:
Amazing really that the basic human right to free movement and settlement is the "most alienating political policy" you can think of.
Click to expand...

Okay, that's fair. I should have said the most alienating political policy I would expeect Left Unity to come up with.

I'm not against the idea of free movement of people after the transition to a fairer economic system but pressing for open borders, or more open borders, under worsening neoliberal conditions is going to alienate a lot of people while they are still subject to increasingly intense competition for less and less resources.

In any case, even the freedom of movement within the EU is an absolute sham. France is free to implement racist mass deportations of Roma, Merkel is proposing to kick out 'unproductive' EU migrants and Tories are salivating at the chance of doing the same.
 
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