14th November Movement for Left Unity

[SpineyNorman]

Employers can pay whatever they want. That's why they're currently paying a penny an hour. And obviously really did say immigration was the only thing that affected wages. That's actually what I said, almost word for word. Greece etc don't have low wages cos there's a fucking massive reserve army of labour (one of the functions of EU migration for the British economy) and so employers can get away with it - they just have low wages cos the employers who set them are much more evil than the ones here.

And clearly average wages tell us everything we need to know, because obviously EU migrants doing low paid manual labour will affect the wages of the whole workforce in a uniform way. (The studies you yourself presented bare this out by the way - and note that for most of them the period under study was 2000-5, when the economy was somewhat healthier - in fact that latest data is for 2007. What might have happened to wages without migration? All comparisons depend on a counterfactual - yours is that wages would otherwise have remained the same - but that's obviously not actually the case.

It's knee-jerk reactions like yours that push people into the arms of the far right, not people like me who actually try and objectively understand what's going on in order to try and come up with progressive answers.

PS - call me a nationalist, again, or even imply that I'm making nationalist arguments, and I'll hunt you down and feed your balls to rats.

 

[free spirit]

The key to successful immigration policy for me is to ensure that there is absolutely no way of immigrant labour undercutting the local wage levels for that level of work, so no swedish derogations for agency workers, no charging for a bunk bed and taking it from their wages, no loopholes at all, and proper enforcement with multi million pound maximum fines and prison for those responsible for serious breaches. And that's take home pay for the workers after agency fees, so the agency would have to be paid on top of the wage levels, which in turn would make the use of agencies much less attractive.

Also ban the practice of agencies being able to advertise for workers only in the immigrants home country (actually, I'd prefer to ban agency scum entirely, though they potentially do have a use in supplying short term labour for seasonal peaks or similar).

At least that has to be the baseline minimum for it, even with that it's still likely that mass immigration would hold down local wages levels, but it'd at least be a start to improving the situation.

 

[SpackleFrog]

You're aware that no borders is actually the SP position as well?

It definitely isnt Belboid.

 

[SpackleFrog]

That isn't the fault of LU, the media attention. It's a small but good thing.
I do think LU should stand some candidates in the EU elections though. Momentum etc...

As for open borders an immigration: there are left wing points to put about immigration and it can be done without alienating everyone.

Immigration barely brings down wages (1-3pc avg) and when it does the effect is temporary, it often affects the poorest - who should be specifically helped out - and those are often other immigrants, wage suppression is more about the 35 year old deliberate move to create spare capacity in the labour market and is very often industry specific. Wages are also being hit by the biggest economic down turn since (take your pick) 1929 to 1945...

There is a thread on this with links, not difficult to find `Immigration a socialist viewpoint`.

As for today, now, what is anyone suggesting? That Spanish/Italian kids kick back and relax rather than move to London/Munich/Berlin to find work?

Where did you get that 1-3% stat from out of interest? No, nobody is saying they just "chill out" but its pretty clear the EU open borders/free movement policy is increasing the rate of exploitation. Look at Gama or Lindsey.

 

[SpackleFrog]

The key thing for me about LU is the grassroots democracy that is hard wired into the party structure. The point of such bottom up democracy is not to "build the perfect party", direct democracy still can come to bad decisions, but the point is when things need to change the members will be able to act on it, and wont be locked out of the process by their leaders/vanguard.

If you want to build a party structure democratically it takes time. As W Bush said ''If this were a dictatorship it would be a heck of a lot easier". What has kept me out of political parties in the past is distrust in the leadership/hierarchy, and thats a structural issue. Whatever else people may think about LU I think that should be applauded.

Inevitably once LU get out there it will become a feedback loop, and the democratic structure will allow that feedback to evolve the party much better than a traditional vanguard model would.

Harsh - cant see how you are able to know the views of all these hundreds of members so well, ive barely any idea who is in the party yet. If anyone sees social services as a career ladder its Tusc. "Genuine concern for the plight of the poor is an altruistic philanthropic pursuit, not a shared act of solidarity" <why do you say that? Based on what?

Whoever the "early adopters" of the party are at the moment isnt to me the point (currently includes people from groups i would normally stay well clear of) - the point is the party has the potential to be entered and steered by whoever wants in - which if does manage to break out of the existing left bubble would make it a possibly really interesting entity. It is the potential of the party that interests me, rather than its current state...

This is hilarious. Do you do stand up?

 

[barney_pig]

For someone who would need a 7% pay rise to match the living wage even a marginal fall will fuck us up. Koolaids sneering class snobbery shows itself most clearly with his "only affects the poorest" shite

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I see left unity is going well, as usual.

 

[SpineyNorman]

For someone who would need a 7% pay rise to match the living wage even a marginal fall will fuck us up. Koolaids sneering class snobbery shows itself most clearly with his "only affects the poorest" shite

like the non-vegan wing of the green party

 

[treelover]

I've just joined too. After years of being a Labour voter I've become disillusioned with their inability to be who they should be. Instead of representing the ordinary person they have become obsessed with gaining the middle ground. The Tories are true to their ideology, they look after the rich and shaft the poor and it seems that Labour won't do much to reverse that if they win the next election..it seems like the Labour Party, very much like the pigs in Orwell's Animal Farm have realised that all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others and that they are only concerned with looking after themselves! I really hope that this movement takes off as the normal people of this county really need a voice. Look at the support Farage has gained...there is far more support for Socialism out there than for UKIP - we just need a credible voice to fight our corner!

https://www.facebook.com/The14thNovemberMovementLeftPartyUk

Read the comments about why people are joining on the FB page, quite heartening, very little about ideology, lots about empathy and compassion.

btw, its absolutely certain that if they do have any electoral success, the media, etc will start calling it, 'The 14th Of November Movement For Left Unity' now not used, but to them sounds more sinister/foreign.

 

[SpineyNorman]

The key to successful immigration policy for me is to ensure that there is absolutely no way of immigrant labour undercutting the local wage levels for that level of work, so no swedish derogations for agency workers, no charging for a bunk bed and taking it from their wages, no loopholes at all, and proper enforcement with multi million pound maximum fines and prison for those responsible for serious breaches. And that's take home pay for the workers after agency fees, so the agency would have to be paid on top of the wage levels, which in turn would make the use of agencies much less attractive.

Also ban the practice of agencies being able to advertise for workers only in the immigrants home country (actually, I'd prefer to ban agency scum entirely, though they potentially do have a use in supplying short term labour for seasonal peaks or similar).

At least that has to be the baseline minimum for it, even with that it's still likely that mass immigration would hold down local wages levels, but it'd at least be a start to improving the situation.

Quite like that.

Maybe if we're being a bit more ambitious we could replace the agencies with a nationalised agency linked to the job centre, like the labour exchanges only good.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Read the comments about why people are joining on the FB page, quite heartening, very little about ideology, lots about empathy and compassion.

I was more making a comment about unity on the left as a whole. I mean look at this thread 'I'm more in favour of immigration than you are. I think people immigrate for slightly different reasons than you do so let's have an argument about it' it's fucking boring. I'd say that sort of shit is partly to blame as to why people are driven to the arms of the right. People like UKIP will say 'your problems are caused by immigration allowed by the EU' and people look around them and think 'oh yeah there is lots of immigrants around that must be a problem' and there ya go ukip has a supporter. There's something tangible for people to get behind, wrong as it may be, whereas the left, as I is often the case, just endlessly bicker, bicker, bicker over the smallest, smallest details and there's nothing coherent and tangible to get behind so people don't wanna know.

I fear the movement for the left party will descend in to the same farce.

 

[treelover]

Only group I have ever had issues with really are the SWP, who were admittedly at one time a pretty big (and aggressive) group, your point is as old as the hills or Monty Python.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Only group I have ever had issues with really are the SWP, who were admittedly at one time a pretty big (and aggressive) group, your point is as old as the hills or Monty Python.

Of course it's as old as the hills because the same issues are still present whereas parties like ukip get an ever increasing platform and support base.

 

[belboid]

It definitely isnt Belboid.

Wrong again. But tell me, which immigration controls you believe the sp support.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I was more making a comment about unity on the left as a whole. I mean look at this thread 'I'm more in favour of immigration than you are. I think people immigrate for slightly different reasons than you do so let's have an argument about it' it's fucking boring. .

I know isn't it ridiculous people having a political discussion on an obscure political messageboard!?

 

[Pickman's model]

Only group I have ever had issues with really are the SWP, who were admittedly at one time a pretty big (and aggressive) group, your point is as old as the hills or Monty Python.

oh dear

 

[Pickman's model]

I know isn't it ridiculous people having a political discussion on an obscure political messageboard!?

or trying to and then treelover comes along

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I know isn't it ridiculous people having a political discussion on an obscure political messageboard!?

Going over the same topics repeatedly, veering off the original topic, never reaching any form of consensus and sneering at those who aren't quite as wadical as they are? Yeah, sounds pretty fucking ridiculous to me.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Going over the same topics repeatedly, veering off the original topic, never reaching any form of consensus and sneering at those who aren't quite as wadical as they are? Yeah, sounds pretty fucking ridiculous to me.

That's what urban75 is all about you div

 

[Doctor Carrot]

That's what urban75 is all about you div

I wasn't talking about just urban75 I was talking about the left as a whole in my original post.

 

[Red Cat]

I wasn't talking about just urban75 I was talking about the left as a whole in my original post.

So... you're suggesting that a good strategy for facing up to all the very serious social problems that we experience is to create an illusion of oneness in which people agree all the time on highly complex issues about how we live and what we should do about it.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I wasn't talking about just urban75 I was talking about the left as a whole in my original post.

You're talking rubbish anyway - clearly you haven't either read this thread properly or indeed listened to debates on the left recently on this subject as your understanding of them seems very poor.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

So... you're suggesting that a good strategy for facing up to all the very serious social problems that we experience is to create an illusion of oneness in which people agree all the time on highly complex issues about how we live and what we should do about it.

Nope, just lashing out in frustration tbf.

You're talking rubbish anyway - clearly you haven't either read this thread properly or indeed listened to debates on the left recently on this subject as your understanding of them seems very poor.

Yeah probably. I haven't read the thread, no I was just responding to the immigration debate that seems to have sprung up for the umpteenth time.

What are these debates? Who's having them and where? Perhaps I'm missing something but things I've seen recently, like people's assembly discussions, seem to be 'austerity, cuts, cuts, austerity' yeah we get that bit what we gonna do about it? 'Errrm....'

Forgive me for my negativity but in a week where I've seen Nigel fucking Farage been given an even wider platform by the BBC it kind of pisses me off that there's no decent challenge to that.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Yeah probably. I haven't read the thread, no I was just responding to the immigration debate that seems to have sprung up for the umpteenth time.

What are these debates? Who's having them and where? Perhaps I'm missing something but things I've seen recently, like people's assembly discussions, seem to be 'austerity, cuts, cuts, austerity' yeah we get that bit what we gonna do about it? 'Errrm....'

There you go then!

For what it's worth I'm not defending the rubbish political left, especially not Left Unity - I think they're a waste of space frankly as is the People's Assembly.

Here's two cool things though:

http://fastfoodrights.wordpress.com/

http://www.acornbristol.org.uk/

 

[Red Cat]

Nope, just lashing out in frustration tbf.

It is frustrating but..

This idea that the left ought to be united or that there's a better one out there waiting to emerge is another way of putting the answers outside of ourselves. It also involves a view of conflict as an obstacle rather than as part of creative work whereas I think conflict is a normal part of working things out, solving problems, deciding what to do, it's part of working together and would be part of living in a more democratic and autonomous community.

I don't know what to do politically, I feel quite stuck for something to be involved in, but I'm more and more convinced it has to be organisation within communities with people working on small-scale tangible and practical problems.

 

[nino_savatte]

And so are you, just from the opposite direction with your pro-EU open borders anyone who disagrees is a racist (which is the obvious implication wrt treelover - who I also often disagree with but is most definitely no racist).

Didn't realised you had to be replying to me for me to be allowed to respond btw

Now it's my turn: give it a rest.

Oh and where did I say treelover was a racist? Hmmmm? Perhaps you need to find yourself a remedial reading course. Just a thought.

As for 'open borders'. There are no 'open borders'. That's pure melodrama.

 

[nino_savatte]

One more thing: these so-called 'debates' on the subject of immigration invariably raise questions of national identity and ethnicity.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Now it's my turn: give it a rest.

Oh and where did I say treelover was a racist? Hmmmm? Perhaps you need to find yourself a remedial reading course. Just a thought.

As for 'open borders'. There are no 'open borders'. That's pure melodrama.

1) I've already said - on this very thread - that EU migration policy is not open borders.

2) How can you deny the implication that anyone with concerns over immigration is racist and then go on to say:

One more thing: these so-called 'debates' on the subject of immigration invariably raise questions of national identity and ethnicity.

I'm already quite well rested but thanks for the concern. Why do they 'invariably' raise questions about national identity and ethnicity and how? Can you point to where they've raised these questions on this thread? If they invariably do then they must have. And if they really do raise these questions doesn't that imply that those who have concerns over the consequences of economic migration are racist? If not how do they raise these questions and what are the implications thereof?

And why the scare quotes around 'debate' and why 'so-called'? I'd call the discussion I had with belboid on this thread a debate - and quite an interesting one, for me at least - in that it's helped me clarify my own position and to better understand where he's coming from. Why is it a "so called 'debate'" and not a debate or discussion? There's obviously some reason why you termed it a so-called 'debate' - I'm wondering what that might be.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I was more making a comment about unity on the left as a whole. I mean look at this thread 'I'm more in favour of immigration than you are. I think people immigrate for slightly different reasons than you do so let's have an argument about it' it's fucking boring. I'd say that sort of shit is partly to blame as to why people are driven to the arms of the right. People like UKIP will say 'your problems are caused by immigration allowed by the EU' and people look around them and think 'oh yeah there is lots of immigrants around that must be a problem' and there ya go ukip has a supporter. There's something tangible for people to get behind, wrong as it may be, whereas the left, as I is often the case, just endlessly bicker, bicker, bicker over the smallest, smallest details and there's nothing coherent and tangible to get behind so people don't wanna know.

I fear the movement for the left party will descend in to the same farce.

I agree with this - I think there's far too much so-called 'debate' on the left and what we really need is to have a single, clearly defined and unquestioned line on everything so the proles can understand it and get behind it rather than having an open debate in which they themselves can have some input. I suggest the best way to do this would be for everyone to agree with me and do what I think we should do.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Edit: Can't be arsed.