14th November Movement for Left Unity

[DotCommunist]

What did i just say that you should do? As opposed to what you've been doing which is saying not only that pledges don't exist, but that if they do they say the exact opposite of what they actually do. They love people coming at them with that stuff. Attack them on what they say will do backed up by what they have done - not made up shit or they will make mince meat out of you.

Is a pledge not something they say they will do then? We know its lies, but its what they said they would do.

 

[butchersapron]

Miliband pledges to reverse corporation tax cut
Miliband pledges to reverse social housing changes

The key is that he plays both sides - he says he won't reverse all cuts, but he will reverse some. as i said in my first post:

They're not total idiots and do know what's need to win/keep certain support - and which ones are nice and cheap to make as well.

 

[DotCommunist]

oh wait I just got your line of reasoning-- yeah OK I can see that. but I still think its worth highlighting the lies .

 

[butchersapron]

Is a pledge not something they say they will do then? We know its lies, but its what they said they would do.

Oh ffs:

This:

Red Ed has already said he won't reverse any of the cuts.

is not true. Attacking them for this will allow them to point to cuts they have said they will reverse. You're better off attacking the idea that they will reverse any due to ideology history and opportunism - that's it. I'm saying attack them better. Not that their pledges are worth anything.

 

[DotCommunist]

the feeble and picayune cut reversals will be mockery materiel in itself though- It's not game of thrones. Labour say they will reduce x by z percent! While not touching the core cuts. That alone is stick enough for beating purposes

 

[butchersapron]

the feeble and picayune cut reversals will be mockery materiel in itself though- It's not game of thrones. Labour say they will reduce x by z percent! While not touching the core cuts. That alone is stick enough for beating purposes

But that's not the stick that you have chosen to pick up though. I've been urging you to do so.

 

[treelover]

Perhaps the most telling moments in the conference concerned the resolution of the new organisation’s gender politics. The practical questions were these: should there be “at least 50%” representation for women in any leadership, and should the organisation have caucuses and sections for oppressed groups?
Not all participants acquitted themselves admirably on this question. One man complained that “at least 50%” representation for women would result in women being numerically dominant most of the time. He indicated that he thought this was “nonsense,” but didn’t seem to be able to say why. Others suggested that to have a quota would result in people not being selected on the basis of their politics. This seemed to carry the implication that the present over-representation of men is in some sense politically meritocratic.

However, these delegates were fighting a steep uphill battle. They had lost before the debate began. Conference gave the most heartfelt and animated reception to those who spoke for feminism, and voted by mountainous majorities for “at least 50%” and for caucuses and sections. These may seem like baby steps. Of course they are. But the signal sent by this conference is clear: the culture of the Left is changing and feminism is winning the argument.

At one point as the vote tallies were announced, and as if to dramatise the urgent relevance of ‘intersectionality’, a man griped from the floor: “what about class politics?”

A woman nearby rose in heroic fury, and demanded: “Who said that?”

“Er…?”

“Who said that!?”

“What about class politics?” The luckless man reiterated, to jeers and a few desperate, scattered hand claps.

“Right. I’m a woman, and I’m working class—how about that?” she snapped. Exuberant applause.

http://www.newleftproject.org/index...t_unity_a_report_from_the_founding_conference

Report by SEYMOUR!

Looks like Feminism, Intersectionality, Equality/liberation politics will play a key part in LU, fair enough, but will this mean they marginalise basic issues?

 

[frogwoman]

was it intentional that their colour scheme and logo bears a passing resemblance to the palestinian flag?

 

[treelover]

For the first time, the polite etiquette in the room of clapping speakers from alternate platforms, or with slightly differing views disappeared, I was the ONLY person who applauded him. I looked around and saw the fear and awkwardness in the eyes of men and women who probably agreed with him, but were too nervous about going against the dominant status quo in the room.

This was part of a comment made btl, discussing when a guy stood up and opposed female quotas, not very edifying if true.

 

[chilango]

but will this mean they marginalise basic issues?

The issues will marginalise Left Unity.

 

[mk12]

was it intentional that their colour scheme and logo bears a passing resemblance to the palestinian flag?

I'm not sure, but I think it's to represent the red of socialism, the green of environmentalism, and the black of...I don't know. Not anarchism, surely?

 

[butchersapron]

It's google play. With a bit of IB.

 

[rekil]

and the black of...I don't know.

Space and whatever is out there (ie aliens).

 

[Idris2002]

Space and whatever is out there (ie aliens).

If Posadas could see us now.

 

[belboid]

was it intentional that their colour scheme and logo bears a passing resemblance to the palestinian flag?

its exactly the same as the Afghan National Army emblem!

 

[butchersapron]

its exactly the same as the Afghan National Army emblem!

It flipping is isn't it!

 

[chilango]

If Posadas could see us now.

Whaddya me "if"?

Course he can, and is. Something about a comet's tail or something I think.

 

[DotCommunist]

If Posadas could see us now.

 

[chilango]

its exactly the same as the Afghan National Army emblem!

Brilliant!!!

 

[belboid]

It flipping is isn't it!

okay, minus the squiggles

 

[treelover]

someone had better inform them.

 

[imposs1904]

someone had better inform them.

they already know

 

[Delroy Booth]

On Tony Greensteins blog it makes a reference to http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/left-unity-conference.html

What was even more confusing was that the Chair couldn’t decide whether the Aims and Objectives were part of the constitution. He ruled against but the agenda stated differently. If so, then we have a party that is committed to the mixed i.e. private and public, economy. A great start for a unified socialist party, which is probably why the term ‘left’ rather than ‘socialist’ was the order of the day. There were 4 platforms – Class Struggle, Socialist, Communist and Left Platform. The latter won out with a ¾ majority.

So aside from the questions over quotas and stuff, what about this? mixed economy? That's a bit wet isn't it? I accept that presenting it in the language of reformism, and trying to situate yourself as an alternative to Labour after 2015, has a bit more tactical scope to it than "nationalise the top 200 companies" or something like that, but are the actually even trying to have a new radical socialist party or a new SDP?

Is that what they think society is asking for? That some moderate Labourism is the solution to the specific problems we face? It's so strange that their lesson from the last 5-6 years of crisis and austerity has been to move away from class at a time when society itself seems to be engaged in a very fierce class-based struggle, but that might be because they're taking their lessons from their experiences in the political left bubble not by earnestly looking at changes taking place outside the trot bunker. The SWP refugee's have taken with them quite different poltical lessons from their experiences, and as the largest organised faction that will dominate the path of the organisation in the future, effectively tying Left Unity to the SWP so that it can be a place where oppositionists and other SWP remnants achieve their vindication, not something that's orientated towards the millions of people outside of the political left who are alienated, marginalised and under attack from austerity.

Seymour makes some points here http://www.newleftproject.org/index...t_unity_a_report_from_the_founding_conference

Whereas crises arose for European social democratic parties upon taking office and administering neoliberalism, no such crisis arose for Labour. Anyone still a member of the party or voting for it had few expectations of Blair as a radical reformer. When Blair’s record was worse than expected, members and voters withdrew from activity rather than join anything new, their demoralisation stronger than their outrage. Even Stop the War, one of the few movements to genuinely merit the adjective ‘mass’, could only prise away one Labour MP. That was George Galloway. He did not want to leave, but was forced out, and did not bring a significant detachment with him. The highlights and lowlights of his subsequent career are well known.

No mention of the SWP's role in fucking up the Stop the War movement. And saying that there's been "no crisis for Labour" well I'm not so sure myself, there's still plenty of time for that happen after 2015

This is the problem that Left Unity faces. The UK has no significant communist or far left parties equivalent to those in Greece, France or Portugal. It is therefore impossible to do what Left Unity wants to do unless there is a realignment in which a sizeable chunk of the Labour Party, including MPs and councillors, splits. Moreover, Left Unity is not coming up on the back of some great social movement, and the wider left in which it operates is historically weak. To all appearances, it has emerged at a most inopportune moment.

2 things here stand out. Firstly that it's very Labour orientated in both it's own policies (and I include the intersectional/identity politics in that) and it's strategy. he says "collaborate effectively with those who continue to be in the Labour Party whether through the People’s Assemblies or more localised campaigns" which we can translate as "please allow me to be your bagcarrier of choice Mr McCluskey not John and Lindsay" and then "define a viable left politics that doesn’t simply speak in the idiom of forgotten eras of radicalism." which can be translated more honestly by the comment by Sheila Richards "The day was dominated by the tired traditional left wing language which I had hoped we had grown out of; ‘class war’, ‘class struggle’, ‘communism’, ‘smash the EDF’, ‘working class’ (copious use of that)." Indeed Richards, fuck the working class, it's not like we're living through a major class struggle at the moment. When are you going to grow up, abandon your tired old notions of socialism, and instead reduce your politics to a liberal platitude of "make the changes needed to bring fairness and justice to this country." oooh fairness and justice sounds lovely. Smash the EDF!

And secondly the UK has no significant communist or far-left parties equivalent to those in Greece and Portugal etc but it does have "the smallest mass party in the world" and it's from there, not from any mass formation, that the largest faction within Left Unity seems to come from. Rather than looking at it as a potential Syriza then, which was after all derived from a semi-mass communist party, perhaps it's better to think of it as a British Nouveau Parti Anticapitaliste ? A party formed and created not be a response to changing conditions in wider society but by crises and fallouts within the irrelevant trotskyite sects?

 

[frogwoman]

isnt tony greenstein supposed to be a bit of a loose cannon?

 

[discokermit]

okay, minus the squiggles

and rotated 60 degrees anti clockwise.

 

[belboid]

and rotated 60 degrees anti clockwise.

120 degrees clockwise - but, yeah

 

[DotCommunist]

PD does better agit prop *picture of a fist*

 

[caleb]

1. Wasn't it always clear that Left Unity was about building a party that would advocate social-democratic, "mixed economy" style policies anyway? That's no surprise. What do self-professed revolutionaries see in this though? Is it seriously the very cynical view that the proles need to be lead to see that a moderate, parliamentary party like this can only go so far, in order to be won over to supporting revolutionary politics? I don't get it.

2. How is this a period of "major class struggle"? Do you mean from above or something? Because it very clearly isn't in any other respect.

 

[Delroy Booth]

1. Wasn't it always clear that Left Unity was about building a party that would advocate social-democratic, "mixed economy" style policies anyway? That's no surprise. What do self-professed revolutionaries see in this though? Is it seriously the very cynical view that the proles need to be lead to see that a moderate, parliamentary party like this can only go so far, in order to be won over to supporting revolutionary politics? I don't get it.

I figured that might still be up for grabs though, that enough people not already part of the political scene might've participated in it for it to have some new ideas, rather than what looks to me like quite a cynical positioning. And it's a real dead end too - Left Unity social democratic tamed capitalism will fare no better than Labour party tamed capitalism. And what's worse is these people know it.

I think it reflects a lack of imagination personally, and also the fact that Left Unity for all it's promise really hasn't had any kind of appeal beyond meeting fetishists looking for a new hobby. If it had been something that could draw in even a small number of people outside that mileu, then the arguments we'd have seen at that conference would've been very different. As it is the arguments centred around issues of contention between various ex-sectarians, rather than reflecting the concerns of the those outside that bubble who are suffering the brunt of austerity it was the priorities of the ex-SWP lot that won the day.

2. How is this a period of "major class struggle"? Do you mean from above or something? Because it very clearly isn't in any other respect.

Of course it is, what do you think austerity is? Yes it is from above, it's class politics red in tooth and claw. People talk about the "decline of class consciousness" and so on referring to the working class but they overlook the fact the government and capital is more class conscious than ever. They act as a class in pursuit of a class interest and they do it very well. They never abandoned class politics, and it's not doing them any harm.

It's very hard to understand what this current Tory government is doing without some understand of the class forces at work. There's been a slight increase in class consciousness on the part of working class people too I would say, infact noticeably more than when I was growing up in the New Labour 90's, but not much by way of effective organisation, partly because the left groups have little or no relationship to the working class and are often instinctively hostile to them (which is a more complex topic needs special attention)

 

[DotCommunist]

I just don't know what the real answer is except maybe we can come up with one if everyone is armed. hashtag:l.unity