Mass stabbing at Southport Kids’ Club 29/7/24

[maomao]

He was expelled from school after the hocky stick thing. Then as an adult, committed no violent offences

He has spent, and probably will spend, his entire adult life in prison so not sure how he could have commited violent offences as an adult before this crime.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I don’t know. It’s not clear in any report I’ve read. So either his family are culpable or the authorities are.

Also I agree that having an interest in violence is a thing most teenage boys go through. Most of them haven’t been expelled for taking a knife to school and then on another day going in with a hockey stick and breaking someone’s arm though. Let’s not pretend that’s in any way similar. It’s realy disrespectful to his victims.

His various schools were sufficiently worried about him that they reported him to Prevent at least three times. And nothing happened.

Yes. As for what should have been done, a referral should have been made to the relevant authorities on each of the three occasions that he was reported to Prevent. Had that not been followed up on then it would be legitimate to ask about resources, why no intervention was made by social services etc and so on. But, on the basis of what I’ve read so far, Prevent decided that he was not an 'appropriate' case and that was the end of it.

There are also questions about what his school did and did not do, and others will have questions to answer as well.

But, if the starting point is ‘well, what can you do, boys will be boys and some have violent fantasies’ then we aren’t going to get far.

 

[Elohim]

He attends prayers in prison. These things will come out in the next few weeks. But you don't even need that evidence. It's obvious to anyone that doesn't want to stick their head in the sand. Nothing I can say will convince you, so I won't bother trying.

Yes he attends prayers in Prison is this because he's a genuine Muslim or because its for hos own safety.

 

[Elohim]

It's too early to discount anything really, including that he may have been religiously motivated.

Remember when that cunt went on the rampage in Reading, and prats on here were getting all bent out of shape with others who suggested that the bloke with the Muslim name who shouted allahu akhbar when he stabbed people, might have been religiously motivated?

Probably best for powder to be kept dry all round for the time being.

Yes this is what's turning sone people away from genuine left wing class war struggles.

 

[JimW]

Makes you wonder if Prevent came to nothing because he wasn't Muslim or far right, and those are the only boxes they're looking to tick.

 

[xenon]

Yes. As for what should have been done, a referral should have been made to the relevant authorities on each of the three occasions that he was reported to Prevent. Had that not been followed up on then it would be legitimate to ask about resources, why no intervention was made by social services etc and so on. But, on the basis of what I’ve read so far, Prevent decided that he was not an 'appropriate' case and that was the end of it.

There are also questions about what his school did and did not do, and others will have questions to answer as well.

But, if the starting point is ‘well, what can you do, boys will be boys and some have violent fantasies’ then we aren’t going to get far.

That certainly isn't my position. I'm asking what powers exist, what could Prevent have done? Have him sectioned? Have him banged up, home arrest, constantly surveilled? If there was no aligned terrorist motive, no idiology, just fucked up obsession with violence. Genuinne question, I don't know but presume being sectioned wasn't an option.
TO earlier point FWIW I haven't found reports of him breaking someone's arm at school so far. The reports I've heard and read so far mention he was expelled after threatening to take a knife into school and taking a hocky stick with people's names on it, threatening violence but not that he injured someone. If so, why wasn't he done for that.

 

[xenon]

Makes you wonder if Prevent came to nothing because he wasn't Muslim or far right, and those are the only boxes they're looking to tick.

Yes, doesn't fit a known idiology.

 

[Elpenor]

Makes you wonder if Prevent came to nothing because he wasn't Muslim or far right, and those are the only boxes they're looking to tick.

I am going to guess the referrals are scored and the details in the referral didn’t accrue enough points to merit further investigation. Whereas Muslim or far right probably do

 

[Smokeandsteam]

That certainly isn't my position. I'm asking what powers exist, what could Prevent have done? Have him sectioned? Have him banged up, home arrest, constantly surveilled? If there was no aligned terrorist motive, no idiology, just fucked up obsession with violence. Genuinne question, I don't know but presume being sectioned wasn't an option.
TO earlier point FWIW I haven't found reports of him breaking someone's arm at school so far. The reports I've heard and read so far mention he was expelled after threatening to take a knife into school and taking a hocky stick with people's names on it, threatening violence but not that he injured someone. If so, why wasn't he done for that.

Here you go:

Get help for radicalisation concerns

Find out how the Prevent programme supports people who are at risk of becoming involved with terrorism through radicalisation.

www.gov.uk

The question (or one of them) is why didn’t Prevent apparently do any of this having concluded that this scum wasn’t an ’appropriate’ case

 

[Elohim]

Here you go:

Get help for radicalisation concerns

Find out how the Prevent programme supports people who are at risk of becoming involved with terrorism through radicalisation.

www.gov.uk

The question (or one of them) is why didn’t Prevent apparently do any of this having concluded that this scum wasn’t an ’appropriate’ case

Squandering the funding budget

 

[xenon]

Here you go:

Get help for radicalisation concerns

Find out how the Prevent programme supports people who are at risk of becoming involved with terrorism through radicalisation.

www.gov.uk

The question (or one of them) is why didn’t Prevent apparently do any of this having concluded that this scum wasn’t an ’appropriate’ case

Or why their scope isn't wider. As doesn't look like this bit applies.
"Radicalisation can happen when a person develops extreme views or beliefs that support terrorist groups or activities."

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Or why their scope isn't wider. As doesn't look like this bit applies.
"Radicalisation can happen when a person develops extreme views or beliefs that support terrorist groups or activities."

That’s a separate question, which Starmer was dribbling on about today. My question is why Prevent pass on the information to the relevant authorities which they are clearly empowered to do

 

[seeformiles]

I reckon he’s Broadmoor material and will never see freedom again. Too much incoherent rage to be rational.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

He literally had an Al Qaeda training manual, but we're still going with the choirboy angle? Utterly delusional.

He was apparently raised as Christian, and there doesn't seem to be any indication he'd been radicalised into becoming a Muslim extremist terrorist. Just like he'd also apparently accessed info about IRA, and that didn't make him an Irish nationalist terrorist.

From his apparent obsession with death, he and his crimes seem to more fit the serial killer/mass casualty killer mould than politically motivated terrorist.

The Prevent programme is about preventing political terrorism (which includes political terrorism based on religious beliefs).

So at first glance there seems to be a gap in provision. Prevent took more than one look at him, apparently, and he didn't trigger any further steps in terms of risk of political terrorism...

...but then there seemingly wasn't/isn't an appropriate referral process in place to catch a serial killer/mass casualty killer.

But that applies more generally. Not just with this kind of mass casualty killer/serial killer, but also DV.

Because in hindsight, the clues leading up to the killings are (nearly) always there, it's just that there's no system in place equivalent to the Prevent programme for catching other killers if it's VAWG or a wannabe serial killer, before they fulfil their fantasies.

 

[elbows]

Makes you wonder if Prevent came to nothing because he wasn't Muslim or far right, and those are the only boxes they're looking to tick.

Article I posted the other day from some year back includes stuff that makes it clear those arent the only categories of interest, and the rise in numbers of a blurrier mixed category.

It already seems clear that Prevent will be criticised as failing in a number of different ways, as will some other parts of the system. So I'm not trying to suggest that they've dealt with this MUU category of referrals properly, only that this category, this tickable box, already exists and there are some statistics about it.

The stats in the 2021 article Im on about does give us a sense of what a low proportion of MUU cases ended up being adopted as channel cases compared to the number of referrals back then. I have not had time to seek out any newer articles or more up to date data.

While the greatest risk remains an Islamist terror attack, Hall will say the most dynamic new category of terrorist activity illustrates the “blurring”.

Known to investigators and analysts as mixed, unclear or uncertain (MUU) ideology, the category does not prescribe to one specific doctrine.

In 2019-20, 51% of the 6,287 referrals to Prevent comprised individuals with MUU.

After weeding out, 351 cases were discussed at a Channel panel (which decides on early intervention) and ultimately a total of 127 were adopted as Channel cases. This amounts to a 535% increase on 2018-19, when only 20 MUU cases were adopted.

Quotes are from ‘Staggeringly high’ number of autistic people on UK Prevent scheme

 

[emanymton]

That certainly isn't my position. I'm asking what powers exist, what could Prevent have done? Have him sectioned? Have him banged up, home arrest, constantly surveilled? If there was no aligned terrorist motive, no idiology, just fucked up obsession with violence. Genuinne question, I don't know but presume being sectioned wasn't an option.
TO earlier point FWIW I haven't found reports of him breaking someone's arm at school so far. The reports I've heard and read so far mention he was expelled after threatening to take a knife into school and taking a hocky stick with people's names on it, threatening violence but not that he injured someone. If so, why wasn't he done for that.

What people seem to be arguing for would result in the mass incarceration of dozens, if not hundreds of (probably mostly black) youths across the county despite them not being guilty of a violent crime.

Like you I don't know what could have been done, beyond probably just eaissr access to mental heath care in general so maybe his parents could have got him help.

 

[Spymaster]

What people seem to be arguing for would result in the mass incarceration of dozens, if not hundreds of (probably mostly black) youths across the county despite them not being guilty of a violent crime.

Like you I don't know what could have been done, beyond probably just eaissr access to mental heath care in general so maybe his parents could have got him help.

Any kid who takes knives into school or breaks another child's arm with a hockey stick should be excluded from mainstream interaction with other children and subject to extremely close supervision, if not some version of incarceration.

 

[maomao]

Makes you wonder if Prevent came to nothing because he wasn't Muslim or far right, and those are the only boxes they're looking to tick.

Prevent also covers incels these days but the focus has always seemed to be on ideology and being radicalized by a group.

 

[Pickman's model]

Any kid who takes knives into school or breaks another child's arm with a hockey stick should be excluded from mainstream interaction with other children and subject to extremely close supervision, if not some version of incarceration.

Perhaps they need more interaction not less.

 

[Spymaster]

Perhaps they need more interaction not less.

If you want them interacting with your kids that's up to you.

I want them kept the fuck away from mine.

 

[teqniq]

This is a case study of what happens if you completely decimate mental health services to the point where trying to get help for someone is next to impossible.

 

[emanymton]

Any kid who takes knives into school or breaks another child's arm with a hockey stick should be excluded from mainstream interaction with other children and subject to extremely close supervision, if not some version of incarceration.

Is what I would expect you to say, but you know as well as well as me that people would have been up in arms if he had arbitrarily looked up before actually hurting someone.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you want them interacting with your kids that's up to you.

I want them kept the fuck away from mine.

If given your son's previous employment isn't sufficient to equip him to deal with a knife wielding assailant whose is?

 

[Spymaster]

Is what I would expect you to say, but you know as well as well as me that people would have been up in arms if he had arbitrarily looked up before actually hurting someone.

But he did hurt someone. And there's nothing arbitrary about special measures for kids who take knives into schools. It's common sense.

 

[PTK]

It disgusts me that the ability to purchase a knife online is a freedom that must be preserved at all costs, even the cost of setting up elaborate and impractical age verification systems. Would it really be a huge imposition to require people who buy knives to do so "in real life" or "face to face" as we say these days.

 

[andysays]

It disgusts me that the ability to purchase a knife online is a freedom that must be preserved at all costs, even the cost of setting up elaborate and impractical age verification systems. Would it really be a huge imposition to require people who buy knives to do so "in real life" or "face to face" as we say these days.

I suggest this aspect is as much about the "freedom" to sell knives online as it is about the rights of the consumer.

On the wider issue, it's pretty clear from this and many other tragedies that both the Prevent system and the whole mental health system aren't succeeding in identifying and dealing with many people who are potentially dangerous, but wider than that, it also appears that the society in which we all live is creating ever-increasing numbers of extremely alienated and potentially dangerous people, mostly men.

Ultimately it's that which needs to be addressed.

 

[teqniq]

I suggest this aspect is as much about the "freedom" to sell knives online as it is about the rights of the consumer.

On the wider issue, it's pretty clear from this and many other tragedies that both the Prevent system and the whole mental health system aren't succeeding in identifying and dealing with many people who are potentially dangerous, but wider than that, it also appears that the society in which we all live is creating ever-increasing numbers of extremely alienated and potentially dangerous people, mostly men.

Ultimately it's that which needs to be addressed.

Mental health services are very badly broken indeed. I speak as someone with experience of supporting people with mental health issues, trying to get them the support they need. These services were first in line for cuts to NHS services in general. This has led to a demoralised workforce, and in the worst cases, indifference.

 

[A380]

And the police and courts are covering this up, why?

Muslamic ray guns.

 

[andysays]

Mental health services are very badly broken indeed. I speak as someone with experience of supporting people with mental health issues, trying to get them the support they need. These services were first in line for cuts to NHS services in general. This has led to a demoralised workforce, and in the worst cases, indifference.

Yeah, I have long experience of the brokenness of mental health services.

Not surprised to hear that you and your colleagues are demoralised.

 

[Spymaster]

On the wider issue, it's pretty clear from this and many other tragedies that both the Prevent system and the whole mental health system aren't succeeding in identifying and dealing with many people who are potentially dangerous, but wider than that, it also appears that the society in which we all live is creating ever-increasing numbers of extremely alienated and potentially dangerous people, mostly men.

I don't believe that, Andy.

'The society in which we live' isn't worse now than it's ever been, and the history of serial killers goes back into antiquity. There've always been deranged fuckwits who want to hurt people.

If you strip out the religious Islamic incidents, the homicide rate in the UK is 50% lower than it was even 20 years ago and you have to go back to Derrick Bird in 2010, and the 80's before that for other examples of indiscriminate mass murder.