Immigration for economic reasons

snorbury · Jun 8, 2006

After years of European countries and the USA trashing other people and places in order to enrich themselves, after years of slavery and exploitation (which has never been redressed), why does anyone feel they have the right to object to economic refugees? Why shouldn't people flee poverty and disease and seek a better life in the country where all their wealth has ended up? I object to the way people try to divide immigrants into different groups, political, economic displaced etc and try and give one group preference over another.
If Britain offers better opportunities let the immigrants come, don't make the country a fortress with racist politics, rather, open up the borders and change the welfare and housing laws in order to cope.

Crazy_diamond · Jun 9, 2006

snorbury said:
After years of European countries and the USA trashing other people and places in order to enrich themselves, after years of slavery and exploitation (which has never been redressed), why does anyone feel they have the right to object to economic refugees? Why shouldn't people flee poverty and disease and seek a better life in the country where all their wealth has ended up? I object to the way people try to divide immigrants into different groups, political, economic displaced etc and try and give one group preference over another.
If Britain offers better opportunities let the immigrants come, don't make the country a fortress with racist politics, rather, open up the borders and change the welfare and housing laws in order to cope.

But what about the people who object to a free for all immigration policy on the grounds of CLASS?

Why should the working class of the UK suffer wage cuts, worse working conditions, and pressure on local school places, pressure on local housing, local healthcare, public transport and the like?

All the above are in part as a consequence of mass immigration.

What benefit has the working class received from mass immigration?

agricola · Jun 9, 2006

Crazy_diamond said:
But what about the people who object to a free for all immigration policy on the grounds of CLASS?

Why should the working class of the UK suffer wage cuts, worse working conditions, and pressure on local school places, pressure on local housing, local healthcare, public transport and the like?

All the above are in part as a consequence of mass immigration.

What benefit has the working class received from mass immigration?

About as much as it did from the previous economic systems, except now some of them are blamed for voting BNP as well now.

tbaldwin · Jun 9, 2006

snorbury said:
After years of European countries and the USA trashing other people and places in order to enrich themselves, after years of slavery and exploitation (which has never been redressed), why does anyone feel they have the right to object to economic refugees? Why shouldn't people flee poverty and disease and seek a better life in the country where all their wealth has ended up? I object to the way people try to divide immigrants into different groups, political, economic displaced etc and try and give one group preference over another.
If Britain offers better opportunities let the immigrants come, don't make the country a fortress with racist politics, rather, open up the borders and change the welfare and housing laws in order to cope.

Economic Slavery is OK then?

Taking skilled workers from developing countries is OK then ?

Even if they have no Doctors or Nurses left?

People should just follow Capital and go wherever the work is?

Why do you think the majority of Black and Asian people in the UK are against large scale immigration?

snorbury · Jun 9, 2006

tbaldwin said:
Economic Slavery is OK then?

Taking skilled workers from developing countries is OK then ?

Even if they have no Doctors or Nurses left?

People should just follow Capital and go wherever the work is?

Why do you think the majority of Black and Asian people in the UK are against large scale immigration?

You're talking about the policy of allowing only skilled workers into the UK, I'm suggesting no such criteria. Let the poorest in the world into the UK and the disgruntled British who believe they are poor and hard done by can stop feeling sorry for themselves. I'm sick of hearing stories of immigrants dying for a chance of a better life and feel that open borders are the only option if we want to reduce xenophobia and racism. The UK hasn't always needed an immigration policy and those who believe we need one now are unable to come up with a workable one

snorbury · Jun 9, 2006

Crazy_diamond said:
But what about the people who object to a free for all immigration policy on the grounds of CLASS?

Why should the working class of the UK suffer wage cuts, worse working conditions, and pressure on local school places, pressure on local housing, local healthcare, public transport and the like?

All the above are in part as a consequence of mass immigration.

What benefit has the working class received from mass immigration?

Less wars of oppression

The working class din't demand the introduction of passports, it was the military

Crazy_diamond · Jun 9, 2006

tbaldwin said:
Economic Slavery is OK then?

Taking skilled workers from developing countries is OK then ?

Even if they have no Doctors or Nurses left?

People should just follow Capital and go wherever the work is?

Why do you think the majority of Black and Asian people in the UK are against large scale immigration?

There are two sides to that.

What is the point of a nurse or a Doctor standing in a hospital in the developing world with no medicine? The same goes for many skilled workers, teachers with no books, pens or paper, the engineer with no material to work.

In many cases these people coming and working in the developed world and the only money their family back home receive is sent by them from here, it pays for food, school (with pens and paper) and in many cases healthcare only available to those who can afford to pay for their medicine, so for skilled workers I don’t think the same arguments apply as they are not directly effecting the working class in a negative manor and in many cases are benefiting their homeland and family by working here and ending money home.

It is in influx of low wage and low skill workers that have a direct effect on the working class, the professional classes can look after themselves like they always have.

Fez909 · Jun 9, 2006

If anything, Open Borders would increase the chances of there ever being a revolution in Britain, seeing as the average foreigner has more revolutionary spirit than 1,000 of his British counterparts.

*fingers crossed*

Crazy_diamond · Jun 9, 2006

snorbury said:
Less wars of oppression
The working class din't demand the introduction of passports, it was the military

tbaldwin · Jun 9, 2006

snorbury said:
You're talking about the policy of allowing only skilled workers into the UK, I'm suggesting no such criteria. Let the poorest in the world into the UK and the disgruntled British who believe they are poor and hard done by can stop feeling sorry for themselves. I'm sick of hearing stories of immigrants dying for a chance of a better life and feel that open borders are the only option if we want to reduce xenophobia and racism. The UK hasn't always needed an immigration policy and those who believe we need one now are unable to come up with a workable one

With all due respect what an utter load of shit.
If the borders are open who do you think is most likely to come?
Certainly not the poorest in the world.

Arguing for open borders is arguing for a humanitarian disaster its moronic to say the least.

tbaldwin · Jun 9, 2006

Fez909 said:
If anything, Open Borders would increase the chances of there ever being a revolution in Britain, seeing as the average foreigner has more revolutionary spirit than 1,000 of his British counterparts.

*fingers crossed*

Meanwhile back in the Twiglet zone.

Yossarian · Jun 9, 2006

Since the British have probably sent more emigrants abroad than any other country in the world, taking over entire continents, slaughtering and dispossessing the original inhabitants and replacing them with their offspring, it seems more than a little mean-spirited to complain about a few migrants coming in the other direction!

I don't think truly open borders is something we'll see in our lifetimes, but it's not a bad ideal to be working towards.

Crazy_diamond · Jun 9, 2006

These are after all old arguments really as while mass immigration and migration is still a problem for the working class of the UK the biggest threat to their living conditions is coming from “globalisation” ( I hate that word, but I mean global companies moving there business every few years looking for the cheapest labour market) as again many manufacturing jobs and others like call centres and the administration that goes with having to keep hard copies of some documents, i.e. airline paperwork that goes with ticketing, much of this goes from Europe to the developed world for processing and storage as it is so much cheaper.

It is companies moving lock stock and barrel looking for cheap labour now rather than immigrants taking those jobs, the working class and trade union should be working now making links with workers in other countries helping to improve their wages and condition so the playing field under capitalism is move level.

I say the above as there is little sign of workers in the developed world rising up about capitalism but something will have to happen as the world balance in trade and recourses is shifting and shifting fast, China, Asia and South America are the up and coming economies and one thing they are not short of is workers wanting jobs.

Crazy_diamond · Jun 9, 2006

Yossarian said:
Since the British have probably sent more emigrants abroad than any other country in the world, taking over entire continents, slaughtering and dispossessing the original inhabitants and replacing them with their offspring, it seems more than a little mean-spirited to complain about a few migrants coming in the other direction!

I don't think truly open borders is something we'll see in our lifetimes, but it's not a bad ideal to be working towards.

Many countries did the same and far worse than the British but that was under a very different system to the one we live under today.

The people living nowadays in the developing world that I know don’t harp back and complain about colonisation they are looking forward and asking “what did colonisation do for us that we can use in our favour” and the English language is proving very profitable for many countries in Asia now.

snorbury · Jun 9, 2006

Crazy_diamond said:

The British Nationality and Status Aliens Act 1914 paved the way for modern passports

durruti02 · Jun 9, 2006

Yossarian said:
Since the British have probably sent more emigrants abroad than any other country in the world, taking over entire continents, slaughtering and dispossessing the original inhabitants and replacing them with their offspring, it seems more than a little mean-spirited to complain about a few migrants coming in the other direction!

I don't think truly open borders is something we'll see in our lifetimes, but it's not a bad ideal to be working towards.

yes true but the question though as always is how you get there and what are the costs on the way

snorbury · Jun 9, 2006

tbaldwin said:
With all due respect what an utter load of shit.
If the borders are open who do you think is most likely to come?
Certainly not the poorest in the world.

Arguing for open borders is arguing for a humanitarian disaster its moronic to say the least.

so why don't you want the richer immigrants, that you foresee coming with open borders, don't you want their money or don't you want their cultural traditions or what?

snorbury · Jun 9, 2006

Yossarian said:
I don't think truly open borders is something we'll see in our lifetimes, but it's not a bad ideal to be working towards.

It's good to have a dream

better than a world of fences and washed up bodies on Spanish beeches

tbaldwin · Jun 9, 2006

snorbury said:
so why don't you want the richer immigrants, that you foresee coming with open borders, don't you want their money or don't you want their cultural traditions or what?

I dont want economic migrants to richer countries leaving poorer countries without skilled workers.
Cos im an Internationalist and a Socialist.

snorbury · Jun 9, 2006

durruti02 said:
yes true but the question though as always is how you get there and what are the costs on the way

The wealthy western countries must make themselves into places capable of welcoming everyone, not just rich tourists and capitalists. Housing and social welfare systems would need adjusting instead of the rich sitting back and using mobs of working class racists to instill fear and maintain the status quo

snorbury · Jun 9, 2006

tbaldwin said:
I dont want economic migrants to richer countries leaving poorer countries without skilled workers.
Cos im an Internationalist and a Socialist.

so you've got nothing against allowing poor unskilled immigrants into the country? :confused:

durruti02 · Jun 9, 2006

snorbury said:
It's good to have a dream better than a world of fences and washed up bodies on Spanish beeches

trite narrow minded moralism .. what about the families here out of work and seperated as the kids can not get housing?? look at the whole picture ..

people try to come here because they know we have neo liberal economy where anyone prepared to work for the lowest wage will get work .. check out the big immigration thread ..we go thru all this ..

if local people had control over work/housing we could have immigration based on choice not economic coercion

tbaldwin · Jun 9, 2006

snorbury said:
so you've got nothing against allowing poor unskilled immigrants into the country?

Of course i have there are 5 million plus people unemployed or underemployed people in the UK. Unskilled workers from abroad are often in fact quite skilled and you get engineers from Sri Lanka in factory jobs etc or cleaning peoples homes etc.
I am against economic migration not only cos it means plundering poor nations of their most valuable resource but also that i want to see a better deal for working class people in the UK Black and White etc.

snorbury · Jun 9, 2006

durruti02 said:
trite narrow minded moralism .. what about the families here out of work and seperated as the kids can not get housing?? look at the whole picture ..

people try to come here because they know we have neo liberal economy where anyone prepared to work for the lowest wage will get work .. check out the big immigration thread ..we go thru all this ..

if local people had control over work/housing we could have immigration based on choice not economic coercion

look at the fat cats in their country homes exploiting the poor people in the poor countries, maybe the neo liberal system would grind to a halt if we allowed free movement, the current immigration policy is never going to stop it. What an insult to someone wanting to explore their world it is to say "sorry mate you can't come here, they need you back home", next you'll be suggesting a drop in UK taxes to stop the brain drain, oh no, that was Thatcher

tbaldwin · Jun 9, 2006

snorbury said:
look at the fat cats in their country homes exploiting the poor people in the poor countries, maybe the neo liberal system would grind to a halt if we allowed free movement, the current immigration policy is never going to stop it. What an insult to someone wanting to explore their world it is to say "sorry mate you can't come here, they need you back home", next you'll be suggesting a drop in UK taxes to stop the brain drain, oh no, that was Thatcher

Next youll be suggesting that people get on their bikes to move to work... Oh no that was Tebbitt...

snorbury · Jun 9, 2006

tbaldwin said:
Of course i have there are 5 million plus people unemployed or underemployed people in the UK. Unskilled workers from abroad are often in fact quite skilled and you get engineers from Sri Lanka in factory jobs etc or cleaning peoples homes etc.
I am against economic migration not only cos it means plundering poor nations of their most valuable resource but also that i want to see a better deal for working class people in the UK Black and White etc.

so you're calling for some form of economic isolationism, maybe that would be good, but with global trade the way it is, it's never going to happen. There will always be Murdoch's and Mumbai call centres, the British working classes can not be protected, they must find a new way.

snorbury · Jun 9, 2006

tbaldwin said:
Next youll be suggesting that people get on their bikes to move to work... Oh no that was Tebbitt...

i've got to go, daughter wants to go on MSN

there's no borders there, (except the blocks)

audiotech · Jun 9, 2006

tbaldwin said:
Next youll be suggesting that people get on their bikes to move to work... Oh no that was Tebbitt...

I was doing that and many others also before Tebbit came out with that load of nonsense. The ironic thing is that then the tories brought in rules in an attempt to stop people doing exactly that. Which appears to be what you're arguing for?

People move to where work is nationally and internationally pure and simple and no amount of draconian legislation will stop that.

The other major group moving around the world are those fleeing civil conflict and wars.

tbaldwin · Jun 9, 2006

snorbury said:
so you're calling for some form of economic isolationism, maybe that would be good, but with global trade the way it is, it's never going to happen. There will always be Murdoch's and Mumbai call centres, the British working classes can not be protected, they must find a new way.

No i am not against Jobs going to India etc its just i want those Jobs to be tied to better pay and conditions. I am not arguing for Isolating the UK but i am arguing against the free market principles of economic migration.

tbaldwin · Jun 9, 2006

MC5 said:
I was doing that and many others also before Tebbit came out with that load of nonsense. The ironic thing is that then the tories brought in rules in an attempt to stop people doing exactly that. Which appears to be what you're arguing for?

People move to where work is nationally and internationally pure and simple and no amount of draconian legislation will stop that.

The other major group moving around the world are those fleeing civil conflict and wars.

I think that Migration will always be difficult,its no solution to the problems of inequality and makes matters worse.
Any measures to stop the flow of Economic migrants that are effective could be described as Draconian but the effects of having no measures would be disastrous and lead to unimagined misery.
I have always been for the rights of innocent people genuinely fleeing persecution and death to seek refuge in this or any other country.

Immigration for economic reasons

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