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Your opinions of co-location of IAPT staff in Jobcentres

Unfortunately, in my area at least, it is being offered as a universal panacea.

In many places it's the only therapy available without a lengthy wait. Mental health services are so underfunded that a kind of desparate stepped care approach takes place where anything that is available is offered to everyone regardless of suitability. A lot of what is labelled CBT in my experience isn't exactly gold standard. What do health workers do in that situation? Offer nothing?

All of this is rubbish and it's patients who lose out. But my concern is about babies and bathwater. CBT does help a lot of people and we shouldn't lose sight of that. CBT isn't the problem, just like the principle of care in the community isn't the problem. It's the use of that by central government in the context of barely functioning mental health services that's the real issue.
 
In many places it's the only therapy available without a lengthy wait. Mental health services are so underfunded that a kind of desparate stepped care approach takes place where anything that is available is offered to everyone regardless of suitability. A lot of what is labelled CBT in my experience isn't exactly gold standard. What do health workers do in that situation? Offer nothing?

All of this is rubbish and it's patients who lose out. But my concern is about babies and bathwater. CBT does help a lot of people and we shouldn't lose sight of that. CBT isn't the problem, just like the principle of care in the community isn't the problem. It's the use of that by central government in the context of barely functioning mental health services that's the real issue.
Unfortunately even trying to explain that to a GP is a battle in and of itself.
 
I don't know of many clinicians who use CBT (and many who say they use CBT are really only using CBT principles and haven't done any accredited training) who believe this crap about it being a universal panacea. Mental health services have long been saddled with the emotional consequences of inequality and injustice, CBT didn't invent this, this is just a particularly egregious attempt to individualise the cost of political and economic decisions. No therapy should or can be used as a substitute for solidarity, action and social justice.

While it's certainly true that CBT focuses on what maintains a problem rather than what initially caused it, it's absolutely not true that CBT never looks at causes, schemas and underlying beliefs. That is absolute nonsense. The reason CBT focuses on what's keeping something going is that a lot of time has been spent working out that for most people it's the most helpful thing to do. That doesn't mean any therapist worth their salt should think it's the only thing to do.

As someone said upthread, often very progressive ideas can be highjacked by government who see it as a cheap, individualised option. This has absolutely happened to CBT. I'm increasingly concerned that there are a lot of people with vested interests of their own absolutely desperate to kick CBT while it is down though. It still remains for many people the absolutely best chance of recovery.
I can't help but get the feeling that a lot of this is in response to my post about the use of CBT, so let's get a few things straight.

First of all, I don't think anyone has said anywhere (certainly not on this thread) that practitioners think that CBT is a universal panacea. I have said before that I think CBT has been terribly oversold, and I'd stand by that - and I have also said that part of the reason it tends to be seen as some kind of cure-all in certain quarters is because it's been sold by its proponents as the answer to all ills. It's interesting that my attempts to suggest otherwise are met with such an implacable - and, dare I say, defensive - response, which makes it that much harder for anyone to put the counter-argument that says that, actually, CBT, just like any other therapeutic modality is good at some things, not so good at others.

I take your point that CBT can be used to examine problems in greater depth, but - and be honest here - how often do you think that really happens, when pretty much all the CBT on offer is being delivered as solution-focused short-term therapy, increasingly frequently as a manualised process which doesn't really offer either the time or the space for excursions into deeper underlying factors? In my experience, including as a practitioner of short-term solution-focused therapies (including some elements of CBT), it is something I see happening extremely rarely. I see quite a few clients who have filtered back from CMHT (usual point of contact for adult psychiatric problems) referrals where their sole experience of therapy was a very lightly-trained CPN (community psychiatric nurse) delivering the most superficial interventions where they are often told that the early life stuff is "behind them" and that they should "forget about it and concentrate on moving forward". These are people calling themselves therapists saying this stuff, and it's the real reason why CBT's ascendancy appears to be coming to an end - because all people know about it is what they're told, and what their experience tells them, and right now what is happening is that a lot of people are associating CBT with an unhelpful, and often somewhat punitive style of working. I have clients who have come to therapy with me suspicious and nervous, and who need strong reassurance that the "therapy" we're embarking on is absolutely not the same as the "therapy" they last had, and which for them was often actively unhelpful. If there is any pique in my attitude towards this, it is largely driven by the fact that clients have been unnecessarily harmed and discouraged from seeking further help directly thanks to such poor interventions - at least for me, the fact that those interventions have been done under the banner of CBT is irrelevant, but it very frequently is not for my clients.

You and I both know that that's not really what CBT - or any therapy - is really about, but that's the perception, and my feeling is that if the therapy industry, and particularly that bit of it connected with CBT training and validation, doesn't get its house in order, the sector as a whole will suffer from the negative perceptions these ham-fisted interventions are creating. And the defensiveness from some quarters of the CBT end of things, whenever it is suggested that it is misapplied or not used appropriately, certainly doesn't help, or encourage a sensible debate.

I don't have a vested interest in "kicking CBT while it's down". I am not ideologically opposed to the use of CBT in therapy - I think it is a fine, and somewhat unique, modality that has a valuable role to play in all kinds of areas. But not the only one, and by no means one that is universally beneficial to all kinds of client, and all kinds of condition. If I have appeared to be being critical of CBT, it is only in the same way that I would be critical of someone who was attempting to drive screws using, say, a paintbrush.

And I think I'd want to see a bit more of an evidential base for your claim that "It still remains for many people the absolutely best chance of recovery" - I suspect that this is predicated on the fact that so many of the commissioners of health services are still hypnotised by the notion that CBT is somehow fundamentally better simply because it has some kind of embedded outcome measurement, and commissioners like measurements, so I suspect that the claim doesn't really relate to CBT's inherent superiority so much as the fact that, for most people, it's the only therapy they can access, regardless of its suitability for them - something which, as I have said above, I have seen ample examples of in my professional experience.
 
In many places it's the only therapy available without a lengthy wait. Mental health services are so underfunded that a kind of desparate stepped care approach takes place where anything that is available is offered to everyone regardless of suitability. A lot of what is labelled CBT in my experience isn't exactly gold standard. What do health workers do in that situation? Offer nothing?
Whatever they do, they should be being honest. It is not honest to simply offer a sub-standard or inappropriate intervention, and then leave the client/patient to assume that, because it didn't work, it is because of some failing of theirs. And that does happen, far too often. I've seen that from both sides of the professional fence, over many, many years.
 
Would you say that 'beating the blues', that i linked to above, is a good or bad example of cbt?
I think I'd have to study it a lot more closely to give you a definitive answer, but I would say that there is no reason why it shouldn't be a very good example of CBT.

However, there is quite a lot of research to suggest that, where therapy is concerned, the most important factor is not the modality (ie whether it's CBT, psychodynamic, person-centred, etc), but the relationship that is built up between the therapist and the client - that is what the big progress tends to rest on. So, obviously, for clients where the problem is about a bit more than learning some coping skills to deal with their moods, computerised therapy is likely to be of limited use.

My issue with these things is not the existence of computerised therapy, good or bad, or of CBT, but with making sure that the right interventions are targeted to the right people/problems. As Plumdaff has pointed out, sometimes you don't have any appropriate interventions in your armoury, but I would argue that it could well be positively harmful to point someone with profound and long-standing issues at something like "Beating the Blues" without having first done a decent and competent assessment to see what their needs really are. For someone else, who is essentially in good psychological shape, but is struggling with, say, stress or some kind of loss, "Beating the Blues" could be exactly what they need.

But, above all, we have to be honest ("congruent") with our service users. When I start seeing my six week clients in the GP surgery, I usually say something along the lines of "Six weeks isn't long to address xxx long-standing problem, but it is enough time to start getting a sense of how it all fits together, and maybe this is just an opportunity for you to be able to talk about how you're feeling about it all and get it off your chest". I am careful to manage expectations, because the last thing I want is for my client to walk away after the sixth session feeling like it's something the matter with them that has meant a six week intervention hasn't solved everything. To my certain knowledge, this sort of thing is never said to people being referred to CBT, IAPT therapies, Beating the Blues, or whatever else.

It should be. Our job is to educate as much as to treat.
 
existentialist I'm not going to quote your post, I don't really have time until this evening to respond with the thought I'd like to, but I have seen it. But just quickly, do you not think that the evidence base for CBT (and yes, we can get into the flaws of what gets measured, and how, and how CBT gets money to study itself that other modalities do not) is greater than for any other way of working? And yes, I sometimes work alongside some rather hateful and arrogant counsellors who consider themselves experts in CBT despite having no genuine training or expertise in it and you may have picked up on some frustration from that situation.

zxspectrum I've never used Beating the Blues but I suspect it's similar to other online resources my team does use. It's probably a Tier 0 level intervention using CBT principles that may be very useful for some people experiencing low level depression and anxiety but might prove less useful, especially in isolation, for people with more severe and complex problems. I also know of some people under CMHT who have used those kinds of supports as part of a larger plan. What existentialist said, really.
 
existentialist I'm not going to quote your post, I don't really have time until this evening to respond with the thought I'd like to, but I have seen it. But just quickly, do you not think that the evidence base for CBT (and yes, we can get into the flaws of what gets measured, and how, and how CBT gets money to study itself that other modalities do not) is greater than for any other way of working? And yes, I sometimes work alongside some rather hateful and arrogant counsellors who consider themselves experts in CBT despite having no genuine training or expertise in it and you may have picked up on some frustration from that situation.
There is certainly an evidence base in support of the claims that CBT can improve outcomes.

But there are two things to be careful of, here:
  1. Is what we are measuring a true measure of the value of the process (eg. would longer-term followups show the same improvements, or are we even measuring the right things?);
  2. Just because a particular therapeutic approach doesn't (as most don't) embed some kind of measurement process into their methodology, does that mean we must consider them to be less effective?
Further to which is the question of what the effect of conducting measurements has on the thing being measured. The Scientologists, for example, claim that practising their peculiar faith is capable of raising IQ, and point to longitudinal "studies" (I use the word advisedly) claiming to show that regularly administered IQ tests show improving results throughout the process, when what is actually happening is that people are simply getting better at filling in the tests (or maybe they're even retaking the same test time and again).

I am very wary of the drawbacks of taking measurements in therapy, partly as a result of my own first-hand experience of using such tools. The first, something called the "Strengths and Difficulties Questionnaire", I refused to use after a while, because I was deeply concerned that some of the questions being asked were couched in terms that I felt were, to say the least, unhelpful from a therapeutic point of view, took a long time to complete, and which in any case really didn't tell me anything ("Do other people often accuse you of lying?" was one). The second was a version of CORE-10, called YP-CORE. This was at the opposite end of the spectrum, and so simple that I had some doubts as to whether we could really get useful information from it. In practice, what we would see would be quite a conservative score at the beginning, when the client was completing the initial form, followed - almost universally - by a significant deterioration in score results as the client became more aware of their feelings and more willing to trust the therapist with them. Indeed, we quite often noticed continuing decreases in scores while at the same time the client was clearly - in a qualitative way - improving in their self-awareness and functioning, which meant we were delivering quite paradoxical results.

And, perhaps most profound of all, many clients learned extremely quickly how to "game" the system. And some would even admit that they had deliberately set out to achieve a low or high score to achieve a particular end. So we could not, in any way, suggest that our measurements were a completely unimpeachable indicator of the actual state of the work.

I am not against measurement (in the same way that I am not "against" CBT). But I think, for all the reasons above, that we need to treat measurements with extreme caution, both because of the effect they can have on the building of a trusting therapeutic alliance, and because the results need careful interpretation to deal with outliers, exceptions, and people's tendency to respond in subjective ways - in my experience, I would hand sheafs of YP-CORE score pairs in to my manager, each accompanied by some kind of narrative to cover the more qualitative aspects, and would get back a consolidated spreadsheet into which these figures had been thrown, outliers and all, and used to perform various calculations that were, ultimately, being used to compare "effectiveness" between counsellors working with very different client groups. That was no less than misuse of data that was not fit to be used in that way.

So, in short, I don't think that "measurability" is a particularly significant attribute of any therapeutic approach in terms of its overall validity - there have to be other factors that are more important.
 
In many places it's the only therapy available without a lengthy wait. Mental health services are so underfunded that a kind of desparate stepped care approach takes place where anything that is available is offered to everyone regardless of suitability. A lot of what is labelled CBT in my experience isn't exactly gold standard. What do health workers do in that situation? Offer nothing?

All of this is rubbish and it's patients who lose out. But my concern is about babies and bathwater. CBT does help a lot of people and we shouldn't lose sight of that. CBT isn't the problem, just like the principle of care in the community isn't the problem. It's the use of that by central government in the context of barely functioning mental health services that's the real issue.

Anyone know who will supply CBT in job centers, is it beating the blues?
 
Anyone know who will supply CBT in job centers, is it beating the blues? Someone on the board suggested it was another company that was successful.:thumbs:
 
I don't really understand. The proposal is for IAPT workers to be located in job centres. I have no idea if they use Beating the Blues in Lambeth IAPT. IAPT workers are trained and accredited in CBT.
 
Plumdaff. Sorry to be a thicko lol, do you mean that beating the blues is the only program available at job centers, I understood there were others?
I didn't get the impression that they had got as far as appointing suppliers for this service - at the moment, it's a plan.

I imagine, if other DWP contracts are anything to go by, that they'll appoint suppliers for each region.
 
I don't really understand. The proposal is for IAPT workers to be located in job centres. I have no idea if they use Beating the Blues in Lambeth IAPT. IAPT workers are trained and accredited in CBT.

Thank you for your reply, no one appears to know what is actually available, I understand trained therapists using CBT are available and Computer Cognitive Behavior Therapy /CBT with telephone back up, but no CCBT program name available, right now, someone here suggested beating the blues.
 
Help me out here, please quote the part of that article that you're referring to because I can't find it.
I think it's this bit

An article on the ‘Same Difference’ blog reveals that Jobcentre Plus staff are sending people diagnosed with depression a link to an online CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) course, claiming not that it might be helpful but that it will cure their depression. Or, in their words:

Beating the blues is just a click away

Read the original article for an image of the ad and link.

The links go here: http://samedifference1.com/2014/12/...this-to-a-depressed-woman-found-fit-for-work/ - in turn, the picture of the ad referenced isn't available to view any more.
 
As I said before, the company behind BTB went bust, and since I wrote that, have been deleted from the stock exchange. So it won't be them.

Look into Screenetics as a possible supplier, but it's not necessarily them.

Edit: Wulwirth appears on various Ultrasis investor forums, so what's yer angle? :hmm:
 
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As I said before, the company behind BTB went bust, and since I wrote that, have been deleted from the stock exchange. So it won't be them.

Look into Screenetics as a possible supplier, but it's not necessarily them.

Edit: Wulwirth appears on various Ultrasis investor forums, so what's yer angle? :hmm:

Searching for information, no other agenda hence keeping the same avatar....!

Screenetics went into administration and was instantly sold to ToHealth, same day, owner ultrasis.

Ultrasis has been delisted from the aim market, share were previously suspended.

As of today the company remain trading outside the stockmarket, to the best of my knowledge, unless someone can offer a link to say otherwise?

Thank you for your reply ;)....
 
Searching for information, no other agenda hence keeping the same avatar....!

Screenetics went into administration and was instantly sold to ToHealth, same day, owner ultrasis.

Ultrasis has been delisted from the aim market, share were previously suspended.

As of today the company remain trading outside the stockmarket, to the best of my knowledge, unless someone can offer a link to say otherwise?

Thank you for your reply ;)....
Pretty standard behaviour on AIM, cesspool that it is. As far as I can tell, ToHealth are not Ultrasis though. I would be quite surprised if Ultrasis continue to operate after their PLC meltdown, but elements of failed companies like this sometimes re-emerge.
 
Pretty standard behaviour on AIM, cesspool that it is. As far as I can tell, ToHealth are not Ultrasis though. I would be quite surprised if Ultrasis continue to operate after their PLC meltdown, but elements of failed companies like this sometimes re-emerge.

Yep ToHealth purchased screenetics from ultrasis, interestingly the ex owner of screenetics KH is now employed at tohealth, certainly is a cesspit..
 
I've no idea what model of CBT will be used, but it would not surprise me if it was BtB or something similar because of the format it uses. IIRC there were 6 sessions after which I would assume the DWP would think you were cured. The sessions also included 'homework' in the form of stuff you did during the rest of the week along with a chart to record it all, which of course the DWP can examine if they wanted (just like your Claimant Commitment).

Those things alone might not be so bad since most of it revolved around recording moments where you felt emotionally vulnerable and sought to apply the process of trying to deconstruct that and thus not feel so stressed. My problem with that process is that, if you have the strength and presence to manage that you don't need CBT! :D
 
https://intensiveactivity.wordpress...cs-will-not-go-away-with-start-smiling-again/

Job centres to overcome mental health barriers to work

A Wales-based company is partnering with the Department for Work and Pensions to roll out an initiative in South Wales job centres. to get people with mental health problems back into work.

The ‘Press Pause to Play’ programme was piloted in Swansea towards the end of last year, helping people with anxiety and depression through a combination of psychology, physiology and neuroscience.

Run by a specialist stress and anxiety management company, the programme reportedly saw 50% of participants successfully run to work.

By partnering with the Department for Work and Pensions, the company – ‘Start Smiling Again’ hope to achieve similar results across Wales by rolling the programme out to a number of job centres in South Wales.
 
'Start Smiling Again' urrrrgh.

That's doesn't claim to be nor is it CBT btw , it's 'Blueprint Therapy and Counselling' which appears to be the invention of the 'Harley Street Therapist' who owns the company. On first glance it looks like the kind of unscrupulous bullshit someone getting into bed with the DWP might offer. But it isn't IAPT and it isn't CBT. A major concern for me is that in the backlash against CBT we'll return to an era of all sorts of vague therapy being offered by individuals of varying probity.

I've realised I still need to answer you existentialist. I'm not going to have time to answer at length but three main points. Firstly any modality is only as good as the practitioner. Anecdotally I meet many people who hated integrative counselling, who got nothing out of it, whom it blatantly didn't help. I don't blame the modality for that I suspect that the relationship didn't work or I blame nothing. I think you're blaming a modality for general issues with NHS therapy delivery and individuals.
Secondly it doesn't do anyone any favours to not accept that Cbt doesn't have the best evidence base. I say this as someone who prefers to work with an ACT focus these days. But it's just daft not to admit a cognitive approach at this point in time is proven to be the best way to help most, not all, people. Don't ask me read meta analyses!
Thirdly I don't think you know about CBT training and accreditation. It's not governed by your organisation the BaCp. IAPT practitioners are in truth scrupulously well trained and fully accredited. What I think we can both agree on is the need for more training. In Wales at least I doubt it will happen any time soon. There's only one accredited training course in the country.
 
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