You have to earn £38,700 before your overseas partner/spouse can live in the UK

[mentalchik]

It doesn't personally affect me but are they mad, I've literally never earned over £20k in my life.

Me neither and i'm nearly 61.....have never earned £20 K either

 

[krtek a houby]

See my post above. There are lots of idiots about. Far more than most people believe.


Once you give up the silly idea that most people are capable of rational thought, a lot of what doesn't seem to make sense is crystal-clear. (I don't mean they were born that way. But use it or lose it, and after a few decades of laziness, they might as well have been.)

That's harsh. It sounds very world weary. Would it not be fairer to say that people (or some of the people) have been bamboozled by a succession of really shit governments for decades? Governments incapable of communicating honestly to the electorate, therefore some of the electorate might be confused and exasperated?

 

[ouirdeaux]

Would it not be fairer to say that people (or some of the people) have been bamboozled by a succession of really shit governments for decades? Governments incapable of communicating honestly to the electorate, therefore some of the electorate might be confused and exasperated?

I don't believe so. Humans tend to laziness, and thinking is hard. This tendency is exploited by governments -- and for that matter anyone else with an interest in profiting from others. It is not created by governments.

Education helps, to some extent, but even the most educated people can lapse into laziness, and it's easier (and more pleasant) to believe what you want to believe than to try to consider the facts, and possibly reach a conclusion that displeases you.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't believe so. Humans tend to laziness, and thinking is hard. This tendency is exploited by governments -- and for that matter anyone else with an interest in profiting from others. It is not created by governments.

Education helps, to some extent, but even the most educated people can lapse into laziness, and it's easier (and more pleasant) to believe what you want to believe than to try to consider the facts, and possibly reach a conclusion that displeases you.

Rather than distilling that into “people are stupid”, I prefer the explanation “governments are devious”.

 

[ouirdeaux]

As I said, it's easier to believe what you want to believe.

 

[skyscraper101]

This is bullshit. I went through all this with my (now) wife when it was 24k or whatever. I was working in a role that could've disappeared in a heartbeat and scuppered the whole process. The whole system is designed against people who just want to live together. It's a human rights violation if you ask me.

This is before we get to the Visa Fees, NHS surcharge, burden of proof, cost of marriage etc etc ad infinitum.

I would NEVER go through it again.

 

[existentialist]

Stewart Lee's take on the whole business...

At £38,700 for a foreign-born spouse, how many could the Tories afford? | Stewart Lee

James Cleverly’s new anti-immigration policy, the latest desperate act of a desperate government, means 75% of the population need to be careful who they fall in love with

www.theguardian.com

 

[krtek a houby]

Rather than distilling that into “people are stupid”, I prefer the explanation “governments are devious”.

Well, that's just lazy of you

 

[MickiQ]

Stewart Lee's take on the whole business...

At £38,700 for a foreign-born spouse, how many could the Tories afford? | Stewart Lee

James Cleverly’s new anti-immigration policy, the latest desperate act of a desperate government, means 75% of the population need to be careful who they fall in love with

www.theguardian.com

There is clearly a very personal streak of bitterness running through that article.

 

[Sue]

There is clearly a very personal streak of bitterness running through that article.

There is? Why do you think that?

(And even if there were, so what? )

 

[krtek a houby]

As I said, it's easier to believe what you want to believe.

Is that your belief?

 

[MickiQ]

There is? Why do you think that?

(And even if there were, so what? )

Just the whole tone of the article (not saying it's not fully justified)

 

[Superdupastupor]

And at the other end of the scales

 

[StoneRoad]

View attachment 404008

And at the other end of the scales

Just goes to prove that money talks !

 

[Superdupastupor]

Makes the world o round

 

[ouirdeaux]

Is that your belief?

Obviously, but I don't think it's the gotcha moment you intended. Would even those who think I'm being too cynical maintain that it's easier to believe things you don't want to believe?

 

[redsquirrel]

Rather than distilling that into “people are stupid”, I prefer the explanation “governments are devious”.

The stupid lazy fools, what they need is sensible, rational 'leaders'.
Lovely politics

 

[ouirdeaux]

The leaders are pretty stupid too, you know.

 

[Elpenor]

Slightly bittersweet for me as had this limit been in place at the time for me I wouldn’t have been able to get married and that would have prevented a lot of further personal issues down the line. But my own feelings are irrelevant.

Doubling the amount is an act of aggression, as is the increases to NHS surcharge that don’t cut through usually.

And don’t forget the Tories would charge a British citizen the same NHS surcharge if they could.

 

[xenon]

The thing is you can’t say a lot of people are dopey and bovine. Because he classed as some elitist wanker. But it’s true a lot of people are comfortable in their ignorance and if you got the time to shake them out of it good luck to you. take me for example. I’m not that clever. but even I know this.

 

[xenon]

Of course this is shorthand and blah blah blah. you can engage with some people of course but those you can’t. What do you do about them. Nothing. make the world better in spite of them. you don’t have to win them over though. i’m speaking as a non-politician. As if they are doing this anyway.

 

[xenon]

The stupid lazy fools, what they need is sensible, rational 'leaders'.
Lovely politics

Think you may have over read their post. it wasn’t a Clarion call for technocrats. just a cynicism. But we are all prone to.

 

[krtek a houby]

The leaders are pretty stupid too, you know.

Yeah, well, you clearly know best

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

How much?

It will come in on April 8th 2024.

I was giving an example of a recent reaction of the business community, the same business community that you hoped would provide a fierce reaction. The first response from said business community is always to say they can't afford it, many build a business model around low wages in which pay rises, minimum salary levels ,and even operating with sufficient staff etc make them unsustainable. Add that to their need to rely on off the peg suitably skilled workers having never invested themselves or collectively in a training and skills strategy and you can begin to understand what is often wrong with such business models.


I am totally against the dependants and family criteria being tied into this proposed scheme and whilst I think the salary threshold is too high I also think that the example you gave of paying qualified chefs £26k is too low.

The sector that should be providing a fierce reaction should be the trade unions and the Labour Party.

I vaguely recall that Indian restaurants are susceptible to this particular problem, because many of the children of the owners want to go to university and go into the professions, they don't want to go into the family business, and arguably that's also what their parents want for them.

And although many people think of them as 'Indian' restaurants, many of the chefs come from Bangladesh. And the earnings level and other visa requirements make it tough for restaurant owners to recruit.

Easy to say that it's the fault of business owners for not investing in training, for paying their staff too little. But the reality is that loads of businesses in the hospitality sector go bust every year. Lots of start-ups go bust in the first year or two. The failure rate of new restaurants is relatively high.

Yes, the pandemic claimed many casualties in the sector, but punters don't want to pay a lot, so budgets are squeezed, and there's a lot of competition. Add in Brexit and there being a fall in the number of mainland Europeans working in the sector, plus the increase in costs - fuel/energy, ingredients, staff, etc, and many are struggling to get by, they're not lording it as you seem to think.

 

[redsquirrel]

Think you may have over read their post. it wasn’t a Clarion call for technocrats. just a cynicism. But we are all prone to.

Whether explicit or not, the anti-humanist idea that most people are stupid and lazy (at a time when on average people are working longer than they did) is political.
After all if people are just stupid and lazy, incapable of 'rational thought' then you can't rely them self-organising, so what better way to organise society than the invisible hand of the market. Or else it leads to a conservatism, that the non-stupid need to be put in power and kept there.

 

[The39thStep]

I vaguely recall that Indian restaurants are susceptible to this particular problem, because many of the children of the owners want to go to university and go into the professions, they don't want to go into the family business, and arguably that's also what their parents want for them.

And although many people think of them as 'Indian' restaurants, many of the chefs come from Bangladesh. And the earnings level and other visa requirements make it tough for restaurant owners to recruit.

Easy to say that it's the fault of business owners for not investing in training, for paying their staff too little. But the reality is that loads of businesses in the hospitality sector go bust every year. Lots of start-ups go bust in the first year or two. The failure rate of new restaurants is relatively high.

Yes, the pandemic claimed many casualties in the sector, but punters don't want to pay a lot, so budgets are squeezed, and there's a lot of competition. Add in Brexit and there being a fall in the number of mainland Europeans working in the sector, plus the increase in costs - fuel/energy, ingredients, staff, etc, and many are struggling to get by, they're not lording it as you seem to think.

I wouldn’t disagree with a lot of what you say , both soaring rent and utility costs have had an impact . After covid my son had two consecutive pay rises in order to keep him at his cafe due to some of the other factors you mentioned. Exactly for the same reasons £26k for a good chef is on the low side in central Manchester .

My point wasn’t that anyone was lording it , my main point was that very often the business model in the hospitality sector , even without soaring rents and utility costs , built on the assumption of a never ending stream of low wages and off the peg skilled staff isn’t sustainable.

 

[ska invita]

This is a big part of the problem. Due to a combination of training and education cuts, social security reforms, the housing crisis and eye watering student fees it's become virtually impossible to train in any kind of skilled work as an adult in the UK. Even if you can find a publicly funded course - and most training for skilled trades like being a chef is run by very expensive private companies - the DWP are likely to put a stop to it or decide you should go and do work related activity instead of actually training or studying for a decent job. Even things like nursing only comes with a training bursery of about £5000 a year, you can't even rent a room for that in a lot of cities.

Much of this was deliberate. A large part of Iain Duncan Smith's reforms were based on a 'work first' approach, imported from the US. Under this system the intention is to push people into taking the first job they are offered no matter how shit or low paid (or coerced into applying for under threat of sanction) rather than allowing them to go to college or attend training for more skilled work.

It's not that people in the UK don't want to be nurses, or chefs, or electricians or whatever. It's not even that salaries in those sectors are often fairly low, although that doesn't help. It's that's it's near impossible for most people to have the time and funds available to train for these jobs and keep a roof over their head whilst doing so.

I dont doubt what you say about the politics and expense but is that backed up by statistics or is it your impression? I had a quick look around and could only find this

 

[StoneRoad]

I dont doubt what you say about the politics and expense but is that backed up by statistics or is it your impression? I had a quick look around and could only find this

View attachment 404067

That increase in "vocational" students is almost entirely due to the changes in the school leaving age - the requirement for under 18s to be in full-time education or training ... as a result a lot of the less academic kids are encouraged go to "college" and "learn a trade" . Not that there is much actual chance for some of them to be productive members of society as they are bone idle and haven't managed the transition from spoon-feed school kids to having to work for their living ... [yes, I'm cynical, OH was a teacher and I'm an employer]
Quite typical is four days a week at college, including "basic skills" with one day on placement at a local employer. The opposite of the traditional "day release" / apprenticeships.

 

[kabbes]

Yeah, the point smokedout was making was about the barriers to (re)training as an adult. Your graph showing a rise in vocational students, ska invita, seems, in context, to be about kids (on the grounds that it is juxtaposed with A-level students).

 

[ska invita]

Yeah, the point smokedout was making was about the barriers to (re)training as an adult. Your graph showing a rise in vocational students, ska invita, seems, in context, to be about kids (on the grounds that it is juxtaposed with A-level students).

ah thanks i didnt pick up on that
yes adult education stats have gone down a lot