WTC Attack - Just another one for the conspiracy theorists or not?

[CaroleK]

'PS I've still no idea what was going on behind this mysterious 'smokescreen' you speak of.' - ed

1) So they could place the Islamic passport in the rubble.
2) So they could plant the Koran and the flight manual in the nearby car.
3) So they could affix explosives to the lower levels of the towers - which the firemen said they saw go off. (NYFD/FDNY?) (*)
4) To make sure that anyone still roaming the area after impact would be distracted from any special ops actions by blindness from the acrid smoke.
You couldn't guarantee that the falling towers would give off enough smoke
for the required cover.

Clearly missiles were seen by firemen on the outside: 'We were also hearing reports of missiles being fired from other high-rise buildings in the area'. Their communications co-ordinator had passed this info on.
Clearly Picciotto had also heard similar shots and explosions from his WTC 'tomb' where he was trapped.
Clearly this was considered to be unusual smoke by a fireman of over twenty years experience in the fire-fighting business. (He had to spend three days in the hospital with his eyes bandaged up.)

This 'small arms artillery' that he heard could well have been - and I'm guessing now - the special ops guys pumping ever more smoke-making tear gas into the area. Maybe the reason that the firemen were kicked off site early, and other teams brought in, was to clear out the tell-tale
tear-gas canisters and the evidence of explosives in the lower steel girders.


(*)
'... we made it at least two blocks ... and we started running ... floor by floor it started popping out ... it was as if they had been detonated
... as if they were planted to take out a building ... boom, boom, boom, boom, boom! ... all the way down ... '

'Some of them have accused him of being a liar. Isn't that reason enough?' - ed

I haven't read of any of them specifically challenging him on the shots/explosives he heard.

'What a credible source you've found!' - ed

As opposed to Bush, Cheney, Powell, Bliar etc you mean? ... Ha!

If that lot told me the sky was blue I'd feel COMPELLED to run out and check!

 

[fela fan]

His abusive nature and personal attacks have been duly noted

Watch out, sounds like there's a policeman about!

 

[fela fan]

Editor, what about all these explosion sounds the firemen were hearing then? How do you explain those away?

Coz i can't explain the phone calls. Can you explain these explosions? And the case of the miraculous passport? And the last minute revision being done by pilots that need extraordinary skill to pull off manoeuvres that they did?

 

[editor]

Editor, what about all these explosion sounds the firemen were hearing then? How do you explain those away?
Coz i can't explain the phone calls. Can you explain these explosions

I already have explained them.

Listen to the sound of a house on fire and you'll hear loads of small explosions too. Heck: put a few logs on the fire nd you'll hear crackles and load noises. That's what fire does. Add two of the world's biggest towers and two high speed aircraft stuffed full of fuel and it would be fucking weird if there wasn't any explosive sounds.

PS How many collapsing 110 storey buildings hit by passenger aircraft do you think those firemen have dealt with in the past? Is it any wonder that such a unique event created unique experiences?

 

[fela fan]

I already have explained them.

Listen to the sound of a house on fire and you'll hear loads of small explosions too. Heck: put a few logs on the fire nd you'll hear crackles and load noises. That's what fire does. Add two of the world's biggest towers and two high speed aircraft stuffed full of fuel and it would be fucking weird if there wasn't any explosive sounds.

PS How many collapsing 110 storey buildings hit by passenger aircraft do you think those firemen have dealt with in the past? Is it any wonder that such a unique event created unique experiences?

Fair enough, could've been that way, but we still don't know for certain. How many houses have you seen burning down? How many tall buildings? How do you know what kind of explosions might be heard, and how many of them, and how loud they should be?

For such a unique experience, you seem to be explaining away things that happened quite nicely!

 

[editor]

For such a unique experience, you seem to be explaining away things that happened quite nicely!

I'm just stating what I thought was obvious: big fires make a lot of noise.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Why are these always the largest threads?

 

[fela fan]

Why are these always the largest threads?

Why do you think? No ideas?

Coz if it turns out that the USG were responsible, how do you think that will impact on the american public? And therefore USG foreign policy? And therefore the world??

I thought you were bright. Must be having a turn today mate, no?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Why do you think? No ideas?

Coz if it turns out that the USG were responsible, how do you think that will impact on the american public? And therefore USG foreign policy? And therefore the world??

I thought you were bright. Must be having a turn today mate, no?

We took our dog to the vets. I just phoned, and he's recommending that we have the dog put down. So, I'm procrastinating about going home and telling the kids, by wasting time here. The posts may not be of the best quality.

 

[RosaDeLuxe]

Talking of fairy stories, can you produce any solid evidence of any large passenger plane being successfully flown by near-invisible remote control units pre 9/11

what do you want another 9/11? Global Hawk was piloted full across the Pacific over a year before. Took off, flew, landed. Read:
http://www.amics21.com/911/flight175.html

and look up the bit about remote controlling aircraft and how the Germans at Lufthanser didn't like the idea one little bit.

and could you explain (because I've yet to hear a satisfactory answer) how all those phone calls to loved ones were supposedly faked?

read dewdney's site, buster. He goes into it. In fact, try reading in general.

And finally, how many people do you think would have been directly or indirectly involved in this amazing conspiracy that you seem so excited about?

Quite a few. But I think people are pretty scared over there in the States. Someone threatens me with losing my job and I wouldn't be too happy either. Much less court death like Dr Kelly. Anyhow, we are seeing quite a few whistleblowers now aren't we? There are people waiting in the wings for the right moment, I think. And you bet we're excited about it. What happens, buster, if WE are right? Then what?

I would have thought that once you add up the immense resources needed to pull off such a technical coup de grace, coupled with the back-up technical, military and secret service staff, we'd be talking thousands, if not tens of thousands of people.

Hey, buster! immense resources? Aren't the US capable of invading Iraq on false pretences and using major resources to pull that crap? C'mon give us a break, course The BIg US of A has the capability to pull off anything it likes. That what bothers all of us in the rest of the world.

And then there's be all those experts to be silenced because surely they'd smell a rat more effectively than all those unqualified, amateur web site authors - wouldn't they? So why isn't anyone speaking out?

They will be.

How many people are currently keeping completely silent about the brutal, senseless murder of their fellow citizens and the destruction of a great chunkl of New York, bigfish?

A number- You know?

I would have thought that many scientists, technical staff, ground crew, aeronautics engineers etc would find it very hard to contain their anger at seeing how their work was used and the lies being spoken.

From what I hear there is BIG anger.

So why the wall of silence? If I ever discovered that I was directly or indirectly involved in such a hideous crime, I'd make sure that my story leaked out...wouldn't you?

Hey, Bigfish, you get the impression these guys are losing this battle for hearts and minds? I think the pay's bad and they're getting fed up. The arguments are really wearing thin now!!!!

 

[editor]

read dewdney's site, buster. He goes into it. In fact, try reading in general.

And you believe what he wrote?!!!

According to Dewdney, only two people out of a population of 1.5 million just happened to notice two aircraft flying "amazingly slow" and "amazingly low" in an illegal and highly dangerous formation over Long Island, heading for Manhattan IN THE RUSH HOUR!!.

And if that story wasn't dubious enough, he then goes on to claim that these two people just happened to track him down and then just happened to want to tell just him their story. And no one else.

And then - would you believe it - these two 'eyewitnesses' just happened to want to stay completely anonymous , so there isn't a single scrap of evidence to support his woefully improbable yarn.

But don't tell me. You believe every word, eh?

There's one born every minute.
Ever have the feeling you've been had?

 

[editor]

From what I hear there is BIG anger.

Go on. Tell me about this 'big anger'. Show me your proof.

(preferably not sourced from a site stuffed full of yet more bonkers UFO stories)

 

[WouldBe]

2) So they could plant the Koran and the flight manual in the nearby car.

To a religious extremist destroying the holy words of the koran would be sacriledge (sp) which would probably count against them when entering heaven.

4) blindness from the acrid smoke.

Most burning plastics give off acrid smoke. Any acid in the eyes / throat would be painful and burning.

Clearly Picciotto had also heard similar shots and explosions from his WTC 'tomb' where he was trapped.

I've yet to see any building that doesn't contain fire extinguishers of one type or another. Any sealed vessel containing liquid or gas will explode when heated sufficiently.

'... we made it at least two blocks ... and we started running ... floor by floor it started popping out ... it was as if they had been detonated
... as if they were planted to take out a building ... boom, boom, boom, boom, boom! ... all the way down ... '

The WTC was a unique structure. The floors held the walls together. Take out a few floors and the walls will give way. When one floor fails all the debris that was on that floor ends up on the floor below overloading it and causing it to fail as well. Hence building comes down floor by floor.

If you think the WTC was brough down by explosives you want to try watching a program about demolition. To bring down a building only 10 floors heigh the amount of explosive is high and the bundle of detonator cord can run to several inches in diameter and thats only to blow out 2-3 floors. So to have fitted explosive to every floor in the WTC, the bundle of detonator cords would be several feet in diameter which would have been bloody obvious to any one entering the building.

 

[editor]

...to have fitted explosive to every floor in the WTC, the bundle of detonator cords would be several feet in diameter which would have been bloody obvious to any one entering the building.

Indeed. It would have required an immense amount of explosives and cabling and it would be impossible to somehow sneak in, position and wire up that amount of explosives in exposed areas without workers, staff, caretakers and security staff noting (for effective demolition, explosives can't be 'hidden': they have to be put in specific, pre-calculated structural spots)

It would also take considerable research by explosives experts to work out where the explosives should be placed and then require a large team to install the required charges. So where does CaroleK think they hid the bombs? In the caretaker's cupboard?

The WTC was open 24/7 so perhaps those proposing the bonkers theory that it was blown up from within might pass comment why not a single soul noticed all the work going on or the strange addition of tactically placed explosives and cables or teams of workmen acting very suspiciously?

Naturally, this latest 'theory' adds even more people to the ever growing list of ordinary folks who seemingly haven't got a problem with blowing up thousands of their fellow American citizens for vague, unexplained reasons.

You would have thought that there'd be whistle blowers galore when all these experts and workmen were being asked to wire up one of the largest civilian buildings in America for demolition.

Any idea why no workmen, explosives experts, office staff, security staff, workmen, night watchmen, maintenance staff, office managers, drivers and all the tens of thousands of people who used the WTC haven't uttered a single peep?

Or were they all too stupid to notice the cables, wire and explosives hanging from their ceilings?

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

to have fitted explosive to every floor in the WTC, the bundle of detonator cords would be several feet in diameter which would have been bloody obvious to any one entering the building.

...Wireless?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

...Wireless?

Detonator cord isn't control cable for a detonator, it's an explosive/combustible in itself used to set off other explosives (as far as I understand it, not an expert here). There'd also be a lot of explosives lying around, bit hard to miss I'd think.

 

[editor]

...Wireless?

Right.

Have you any idea about the huge amount of explosives would be needed to bring down a building a size of the WTC? And they'd still need miles of cable (or hundreds of radio transmitters) to make them go off at the same time.

And then there's the tricky matter of sneaking in those teams of workers to plant the immense ammounts of explosives needed to prepare the building for the mass murder of thousands of their fellow Americans.

Then you'd have to somehow stop all the security staff, maintenance workers, office workers, office managers, caterers, electricians, plumbers, air conditioning engineers, janitors and cleaners from noticing this immense stockpile of highly dangerous wired explosives distributed all over the building while worrying that any one of the hundreds of workers, explosive experts and planners would be so outraged by such a murderous plot that they'd tell the press.

But I'm all ears: do tell me how they could have got away with carting up tons of explosives up the WTC (open 24/7), placing them in position and wiring it all up without anyone noticing. Any ideas?

Where did they hide it all? How did they manage to get around the thorny problem that demolition requires exact placement of the explosives so that rules out hiding them in a handy janitor's cupboard...

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Ben Fountain, a financial analyst who worked in the World Trade Center Complex, told People Magazine that in the weeks before 9/11 there were numerous unnanounced and unusual drills where sections of both the twin towers and building 7 were evacuated for quote ‘security reasons’.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/011904wtc7.html

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

May 8, 2003
Portion of WTC Had Upgraded Fireproofing
Federal investigators examining the World Trade Center collapse said Wednesday only 30 of the 110-story twin towers had fireproofing material upgraded from one-half inch to 1 1/2 inches...

By 1999, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which owned the towers at the time, required an upgrade of fireproofing material from a minimum of one-half inch to 1 1/2 inches.

At the time of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, 20 floors in the north tower and 10 floors in the south tower had been upgraded with the sprayed insulation material, according to the NIST report.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030508-123047-1665r

Any information as to the specifics of which floors most welcome.

 

[editor]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/011904wtc7.html

I don't suppose there's the faintest chance of any independent verification of this 'Ben Fountain' character? All I can find are the usual conspiracy-tastic sites regurgitating the same vague 'story' about a person who 'said something to someone on the way to the subway station'.

But let's just say this guy really exists, then why haven't any of the thousands of people who shared that building gone on record about these mysterious drills? Why haven't we heard any more from this man, or those like him? Why put any store to such an unverified, uncorroborated, reference-free 'found on the internet' story?

And, of course, his comments really don't prove anything at all. When I worked for the Welsh Office evacuation drills were regular occurrences amd we weren't hit by jets, sorry exploded from within, afterwards.

But are you really suggesting that teams of explosive experts and workmen somehow managed to wheel in and wire up thousands of tons of explosives during these supposed 'drills' and no one noticed?

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

I don't suppose there's the faintest chance of any independent verification of this 'Ben Fountain' character? All I can find are the usual conspiracy-tastic sites regurgitating the same vague 'story' about a person who 'said something to someone on the way to the subway station'.

http://www.unityinamerica.com/stories/survivorStories.asp

Confirms 'Ben Fountain -- financial analyst headed for his office on the 47th floor of the south tower'

http://people.aol.com/people/special/0,11859,174592-5,00.html

People article (subscription only).

I couldn't find any other sites mentioning him, 'conspiricy-tastic' or otherwise.

Which sites did you find mention of him on?

 

[editor]

Confirms 'Ben Fountain -- financial analyst headed for his office on the 47th floor of the south tower'

But that doesn't answer the more obvious questions - why did no-one else mention all these drills, why has no one come forward to suport his story and exactly how could 'they' have realistically installed tons of explosives without anyone noticing?

And he makes no reference whatsoever to any explosives being installed.

The story's a dead duck.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

http://www.unityinamerica.com/stories/survivorStories.asp

Confirms 'Ben Fountain -- financial analyst headed for his office on the 47th floor of the south tower'

http://people.aol.com/people/special/0,11859,174592-5,00.html

People article (subscription only).

I couldn't find any other sites mentioning him, 'conspiricy-tastic' or otherwise.

Which sites did you find mention of him on?

Do "Ben Fountain WTC" and you'll get a lot.

He seems more in support of the idea that they knew something was going to happen based on the drills, rather than that they were doing something during the breaks.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Hey, Bigfish, you get the impression these guys are losing this battle for hearts and minds? I think the pay's bad and they're getting fed up. The arguments are really wearing thin now!!!!

Get a room, you two. Or better yet, get a compound.

 

[CaroleK]

Well, ed, they didn't need miles of cables to blow up the train carriages in Spain. This was done by mobile phone technology, thro the sim card. I expect the explosives industry have moved on somewhat since the last time you and I looked in.

I can only offer a layman's guess at these explosions and shots. It would need an eye thats familiar with modern explosives to look over it.

'Any idea why no workmen, explosives experts, office staff, security staff, workmen, night watchmen, maintenance staff, office managers, drivers and all the tens of thousands of people who used the WTC haven't uttered a single peep? ' - ed

Maybe thats because they're all now ... er ... dead?

So how do YOU explain these 'missiles fired from other buildings in the area' then, ed? If they weren't tear-gas canisters, and they weren't explosive missiles fired into the lower levels of the tower, then what were they?

Firemen's wives keeping the coffee flasks coming? ...

And 'boom. boom. boom, boom, boom' still sounds less like a tower finally avalanching to the pressure at the top and more like a series of controlled explosions to me.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Have you any idea about the huge amount of explosives would be needed to bring down a building a size of the WTC? And they'd still need miles of cable (or hundreds of radio transmitters) to make them go off at the same time.

Strange what passes for logic round here these days. To reinforce your argument that the Towers collapsed without any explosives, you tell us that it would have required 'tons of explosives' to bring them down. Make your mind up.

I'm not sure why you people keep feeling the need to invent all sorts of huge complex conspiracy theories involving hundreds of people, 'tons' of explosives hanging from ceilings and stuffed into janitors cupboards with bundles of 'detonator cords' 'several feet in diameter'.

Same with the huge ACME remote-hijack-o-matic that you seem to imagine must be bolted to the outside of an airliner in order to remotely take control, when it's patently obvious that all is required is a slight alteration to a couple of lines of code in the FMS to achive the desired result.

I think y'all watch too many cartoons.

You repeatedly ask how the opportunity to plant explosives could have arisen, so I give you solid, credible links that show that areas of the building were eveacuated several times in the weeks before the attack, and that work was carried out to key sections of the structure just prior to Sept 11. Do I get any acknowledgement? Cheers for the link? Thanks for the credible info that posters can read and use to make up their own minds? Do I fuck.

I get

"I don't suppose..faintest chance...independent verification of this 'Ben Fountain' character? .. usual conspiracy-tastic sites regurgitating ...vague 'story' ..'said something to someone on the way to the subway station'.

But let's just say ... really exists, ...why haven't blah blah..Why put any store to such an unverified, uncorroborated, reference-free 'found on the internet' story?"

Yeah, yeah. Whatever. *yawns*

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

These are the fruits of the Information Age.

Before, it took a couple of decades before people started, say, denying the Holocaust.

Now, it's a matter of a year or two before people stop believing their own eyes, opting instead for frickazoid theories of basements full of explosives, put there by secret government mole men.

Secret Agent eating a platypus.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Strange what passes for logic round here these days. To reinforce your argument that the Towers collapsed without any explosives, you tell us that it would have required 'tons of explosives' to bring them down. Make your mind up.

I'm not sure why you people keep feeling the need to invent all sorts of huge complex conspiracy theories involving hundreds of people, 'tons' of explosives hanging from ceilings and stuffed into janitors cupboards with bundles of 'detonator cords' 'several feet in diameter'.

Same with the huge ACME remote-hijack-o-matic that you seem to imagine must be bolted to the outside of an airliner in order to remotely take control, when it's patently obvious that all is required is a slight alteration to a couple of lines of code in the FMS to achive the desired result.

I think y'all watch too many cartoons.

You repeatedly ask how the opportunity to plant explosives could have arisen, so I give you solid, credible links that show that areas of the building were eveacuated several times in the weeks before the attack, and that work was carried out to key sections of the structure just prior to Sept 11. Do I get any acknowledgement? Cheers for the link? Thanks for the credible info that posters can read and use to make up their own minds? Do I fuck.

I get

Yeah, yeah. Whatever. *yawns*

Well, y'know, thanks for the links. I do read them.

But if someone were to have knocked down the WTC using non-plane means, it would have taken a lot of explosives and some careful work to do so and be sure that it would happen as planned. Demolition is not that easy if you want to be sure about it, it takes quite careful work by a lot of people, and certainly requires a lot of specially-placed explosives which I'm not convinced could have been invisible. Love to hear demolition experts on the matter.

Plus, unless I'm reading it wrong, your "insulation" link says

"At the time of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, 20 floors in the north tower and 10 floors in the south tower had been upgraded with the sprayed insulation material, according to the NIST report."

i.e. it was in the past, no indication that it was still being done at the time.

Oh, and from my knowledge of remotely- or onboard-controlled vehicles (I do have a little, been a while mind) getting something to fly into a relatively small target based on nothing more than GPS signals is not going to be just something that needs a few lines of code (and if it was, why the sudden sharp banking?) There's all sorts of feedback that you need as well.

The main point, though, is that there's no particular reason to believe that they were remotely controlled. Unless you're going to entirely discount the phone calls, it appears that the planes were hijacked, and unless this was some massive bluff where both sets of hijackers thought they were going to land the planes somewhere (in which case why a simultaneous hijack?) and were double-crossed as it were at the end, why is it at all likely that the planes were remote controlled, something that's never been indicated as having happened with a commercial airliner, rather than following the usual control route of having a human being send them somewhere?

That's my problem with the theory.

 

[CaroleK]

Just going thro your links, Backatcha bandit.

Bloody subscriptions! ... tut!

And that all important chat between the firemen classified! Says it all really.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Best of Johnny Canuck available here.

Love to hear demolition experts on the matter.

Well, you could take a look at what Van Romero said at the time...

"My opinion is, based on the videotapes, that after the airplanes hit the World Trade Center there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse,"

Do take a little time to read the link, as he seems to be a bit of an expert when it comes to buildings, commercial aircraft and explosives.

Last time I quoted him, the editor launched an ad hominem attack on his qualifications. So I spent half an hour editing down the guy's CV to just what was relevant... so the editor deleted it and gave me a fucking lecture on c+p. So better go read for yourselves.

it was in the past, no indication that it was still being done at the time.

The reason given for doing it at all is that the Port Authourity insisted that the stuff wasn't thick enough, so if they had only sorted out 20 or 10 floors, surely it was 'work in progress'? Did I miss something?

It looks like it took from whenever work started (sometime after 1999) until 11/9/01 to complete 30 floors total. Why would they have stopped there?

Oh, and from my knowledge of remotely- or onboard-controlled vehicles, getting something to fly into a relatively small target based on nothing more than GPS signals is not going to be just something that needs a few lines of code (and if it was, why the sudden sharp banking?) There's all sorts of feedback control that you need as well. The main point, though, is that there's no particular reason to believe that they were remotely controlled. Unless you're going to entirely discount the phone calls, it appears that the planes were hijacked, and unless this was some massive bluff where both sets of hijackers thought they were going to land the planes somewhere (in which case why a simultaneous hijack?) and were double-crossed as it were at the end, why is it at all likely that the planes were remote controlled, something that's never been indicated as having happened with a commercial airliner, rather than following the usual control route of having a human being send them somewhere?

Read the FMS link I gave above. The system controls all aspects of the flight. As someone said on the other thread, if it's accurate enough to land safely on a runway...



Whatever, there's no particular reason to believe that they were not and could not be remotely controlled, which is the ignorant assumption I find myself compelled to deal with here.

I think we better have a whole thread on the 'phone calls' soon...

Look, I don't know what happened on that day. What I do know is that the people telling me that it is somehow 'impossible' for those aircraft to be remotely controlled in the manner I suggest are talking utter shit (when they can squeeze it in between the ad homs and toddler-grade rhetorical questions).


Something is being covered up. I think we might get closer to the truth if we looked more closely at *why* it happened. (John O'Neill? IRS investigation offices?..)

WASHINGTON, April 4 (Reuters) - The White House will vet "line by line" the report of an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks before it is publicly released, the commission chairman said on Sunday.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N04320135.htm

What are they hiding?