WTC Attack - Just another one for the conspiracy theorists or not?

[davekriss]

Hindsight makes things so easy. We forget that we now live in a different world, and we see things differently.

On Sept 11, I heard about it when my kid came to our bedroom door and said that a plane, or a couple of planes had hit the WTC. Sounded bad, but I think I said something like 'I'll be up soon'.

Then she said that the pentagon had been hit, and that's when I sat up and turned on the tv.

Planes hitting big buildings, seemed like a bad thing, but your mind thought 'accident'. It wasn't till it was three of them, and one of the targets was the Pentagon, that you began to have an inkling of what was happening.

Since nothing like that had ever happened before, no one thought about it in that way. Now of course, it's the first place that our mind takes us.

JC, this is so full of bad judgement on your part. I lived and worked in the NY metro area at the time. My offices were high up in the Chrysler building. I was on my way to the airport that morning (heading for the Westchester airport from my Connecticut home). My wife called my cell and said a plane hit the WTC. She said speculation was that it was a large Cesna or something (we don't know our planes). While talking, the second jet hit. She and I said in unison, "terrorists!". We knew immediately. So probably did just about everybody else in NYC that morning. We did not need "hindsight". Neither did our Whitehouse.

And as far as nothing like that ever happening before, our military, NORAD, and the FAA had long anticipated the possibility and formulated well-practiced protocols that were for some uninvestigated reason not followed that day. The evidence now long gone (steel melted, FAA audio records destroyed, etc.), this will likely retain JFK-Warren Commission fame for generations. It's a shame because, even if it was just the height of Incomptence, the Bush Regime deserved to be drummed out of Washington on September 12.

 

[davekriss]

O boy, I replied to JC's post from page 1 of this thread and only after hitting submit find it's already 11 pages long! Sorry for the late remarks, all...


On edit: Yeow!!! And I replied to a post from 2004!! How did this thread get resurrected?

 

[Fez909]

I fell into a similar trap. I noticed all the posts were dated 2004..But not until page 9. D'oh!

Still, after reading the odd conspiracy thread regarding 911 since that infamous day, I'm genuinly shocked by the beliefs held on this thread.

A belated 'nice debunking style' is in order for Diamond though.

 

[Jazzz]

Hey don't blame me - I started a fresh one... but editor told me I had to bump the old one

 

[Jazzz]

This is what I was told...

So remind me why existing threads dealing with the topic you want to discuss are now deemed unsuitable places for Mr Jazzz to answer directly related questions, please?

The FAQ specifically asks posters to check that there's not threads already extant on topics they wish to discuss - so why do you think those rules shouldn't apply to you?

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Well.. if you want some new stuff - Physicist Steve Jones has identified the explosive used to bring down the WTC - thermite with added sulphur.

Jones said his studies are confined to physical causes of the collapses, and he doesn't like to speculate about who might have entered the buildings and placed thermite and sulfur. But he said 10 to 20 people "in the know," plus other people who didn't know what they were doing but did what they were told, could have placed incendiary packages over several weeks.

As I posted earlier in this thread:

May 8, 2003
Portion of WTC Had Upgraded Fireproofing
Federal investigators examining the World Trade Center collapse said Wednesday only 30 of the 110-story twin towers had fireproofing material upgraded from one-half inch to 1 1/2 inches...

By 1999, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which owned the towers at the time, required an upgrade of fireproofing material from a minimum of one-half inch to 1 1/2 inches.

At the time of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, 20 floors in the north tower and 10 floors in the south tower had been upgraded with the sprayed insulation material, according to the NIST report.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030508-123047-1665r

Any information as to the specifics of which floors most welcome.

The full article has unfortunately disappeared down the memory hole, now.

 

[Lock&Light]

Hey don't blame me - I started a fresh one... but editor told me I had to bump the old one

The editor told you to bump the old one ONLY if you have something new to say. You haven't.

 

[editor]

This is what I was told...

You seem to have accidentally missed out the bit where I said that unless you had fresh, credible evidence, don't bother.

Why lie, Jazzz? Would you like me to expose your dishonesty by listing the posts where I said this?

The singular opinions of Steve Jones - whose University has made the highly unusual step of publicly distancing themselves from - has already been discussed to death.

Any evidence to answer this comment on that page you've linked to:

Assuming that someone did plant incendiary devices to bring down the towers, when and how did they do this, and how is it nobody noticed? Also, how did "they" talk these muslims into flying planes into these buildings at just the time they ignited the devices in order to cover their evil plans?

And what do they say about Jones?

Actually, I noted that Professor Jones' own resume shows that for the past 30 years (since graduating from college) he has ONLY worked on and written about PARTICLE PHYSICS and COLD FUSION. He hasn't published ONE article in all that time that dealt with any physical phenomena in the MACRO-WORLD.
Yet, he now apparently thinks he is smarter than all the structural engineers, demolition experts, experts in impact, steel, fire and concrete, seismologists and macro-world physicists IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. He must think that since he claims certain facts OBVIOUSLY prove a demolition. And we certainly can't believe that all of those other professionals would have missed seeing these same facts or would have remained silent about their implication if Professor Jones is right. So the only conclusion one can make is that Professor Jones is an *Einstein* compared to the rest. OR A KOOK.

And, best of all...

As to Professor Jones' own claim his paper has been peer-reviewed? He submitted his paper to the journal "Research in Political Economy", a journal that "is founded on analyzing society in a manner consistent with classical Marxism."

As for the sulfur:
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=136674&Disp=All&#C51

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Couple of 'new' (to me, anyway) pieces of information in that link:

Stratesec, a now-defunct company that had security contracts at the World Trade Center and Dulles International Airport, should be investigated, among others, because of the strange coincidence that President Bush’s brother, Marvin P. Bush, and his cousin, Wirt D. Walker III, were principals in the company, with Walker acting as CEO from 1999 until January 2002 and Marvin reportedly in New York on 9/11.

At least one report claims that a "power down" condition prevailed on September 8–9 (pdf, p. 45) at WTC to complete a "cabling upgrade," presenting an opportunity to plant explosives with low risk of detection.

Hmm. Didn't know that. Anyone confirm/deny?

Also a piece of video I'd not seen showing what looks like moulten metal dripping off the building just prior to the collapse:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet+9/11

I'd welcome others opinions on what else it could be.

Be nice if this discussion could be allowed to develop around what Jones is actually saying, rather than who he is. Won't hold my breath, though.

 

[editor]

Also a piece of video I'd not seen showing what looks like moulten metal dripping off the building just prior to the collapse:

Please. Let's not go down this utterly pointless route of completely unqualified people posting up to say what they think things might 'look like.'

Be nice if this discussion could be allowed to develop around what Jones is actually saying, rather than who he is.

What?!!! I know this is a rare concept amongst many delude-a-loons, but if someone's making massive claims it's vital to check their credentials and expertise before taking their incredible findings on face value.

"At least one report claims that a "power down" condition prevailed on September 8–9 (pdf, p. 45) at WTC to complete a "cabling upgrade," presenting an opportunity to plant explosives with low risk of detection."

Wow. Now that's what I call groundless, evidence-free supposition!

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Please. Let's not go down this utterly pointless route of completely unqualified people posting up to say what they think things might 'look like.'

I'd actually be quite interested to hear what you 'think it might look like'.

 

[editor]

I'd actually be quite interested to hear what you 'think it might look like'.

I've no idea. Could be a ton of plastic melting. Could be fuel. Could be anything that burns at such huge temperatures.

All sorts of strange stuff comes out of burning buildings - and I've been close enough to some to smell and hear all sorts of unusual things.

But I'm not going to claim a wild conspiracy theory based on just that.

 

[tarannau]

I'd actually be quite interested to hear what you 'think it might look like'.

I reckon it'd look like Cherry Angel delight being fellated by Jonathan Ross. Bill Bailey reckons it looks like that bird from the Chris De Burgh video churned in a blender.

Not sure how that would really add to the understanding of how the WTC building finally came down. But I thought I'd let you know, just so you have a few random speculative comments to feed your imagination, rather than stacks of testimony and views from far more relevantly experienced and qualified folk.

 

[nino_savatte]

Quite honestly these theories that claim that the WTC was hit by something other than two passenger aircraft, is an insult to the memories of those who died and a kick in teeth for the survivors of the deceased. Jones is not only irresponsible but clearly doesn't give a flying fuck about the victims. He's more concerned with his reputation as an 'investigative journalist'.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

I've no idea. Could be a ton of plastic melting. Could be fuel. Could be anything that burns at such huge temperatures.

Mmm. I've seen plastic melting/burning, Kerosene tanks on fire and I've worked with metals at high temperatures. Plastic and fuel don't look like that.

The only other thing I've seen, besides metal, that bahaves like the substance in the video is molten glass, but I fail to see how glass in the building could reach 1250 - 1550 degrees C and pool like that. Come to think of it, I fail to see how steel could reach the temperature necessary to behave in that manner - unless...

All sorts of strange stuff comes out of burning buildings - and I've been close enough to some to smell and hear all sorts of unusual things.

What you've personally smelt and heard from burning buildings doesn't really have much to do with what we can see in this video, though, does it?

 

[Lock&Light]

What you've personally smelt and heard from burning buildings doesn't really have much to do with what we can see in this video, though, does it?

What you mean is, 'what you think you can see and how you interpret it.'

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Beside the fact that no-one here appears to suggesting that 'no planes hit the towers', this:

an insult to the memories of those who died and a kick in teeth for the survivors of the deceased

...is mawkish wank.

Making appeals to 'common decency' of this type is the lowest form of logical fallacy you can find. Sickening.

 

[editor]

Mmm. I've seen plastic melting/burning, Kerosene tanks on fire and I've worked with metals at high temperatures. Plastic and fuel don't look like that.

So the 'credible new evidence' being offered in this thread amounts to your gloriously unqualified bedroom analysis of an unknown substance burning amongst the conflagration of the WTC, yes?

Perhaps you might offer an explanation why all the suitably qualified experts who have seen the same footage aren't arriving at the same amateur, research-free conclusion as you?

 

[nino_savatte]

Beside the fact that no-one here appears to suggesting that 'no planes hit the towers', this:...is mawkish wank.

Making appeals to 'common decency' of this type is the lowest form of logical fallacy you can find. Sickening.

1. How is this "mawkish wank"... given the fact that many died on those planes or are you saying that never happened?

2. Posters on conspiracy threads will often claim that "guided missiles" struck the WTO...or they will make the bizarre claim that it was a "hologram".

3. See the above two points.

 

[fela fan]

Making appeals to 'common decency' of this type is the lowest form of logical fallacy you can find. Sickening.

Agreed bb. But unfortunately these kinds of threads are riddled with it. As you know i'm sure!

I think editor's disappointed there's been so few 911 threads recently for him to play his binning cat and mouse game, so he's surreptitiously played jazzz's hand and had this old one reactivated...

Then he can post up his bin picture and get his kicks.

Ain't that so editor?!

 

[editor]

I think editor's disappointed there's been so few 911 threads recently for him to play his binning cat and mouse game, so he's surreptitiously played jazzz's hand and had this old one reactivated...

Then he can post up his bin picture and get his kicks.

Ain't that so editor?!

I didn't revive this thread you twat, and I gave Jazzz strict criteria for reviving this thread.

Which he promptly ignored.

 

[fela fan]

I didn't revive this thread you twat, and I gave Jazzz strict criteria for reviving this thread.

Which he promptly ignored.

I know full well you didn't revive this thread, and never stated that you did.

I was having a bit of fun that i thought you'd be able to take. Calling me such a nasty name indicates to me that you can't take a well-meant joke at your own expense. Chill out man.

 

[fela fan]

... and I gave Jazzz strict criteria for reviving this thread.

And you expected him to follow them??

 

[Lock&Light]

And you expected him to follow them??

As he hasn't, this thread should be binned.

 

[editor]

And you expected him to follow them??

If he wants a serious discussion, yes.

If, however, he just wants to regurgitate the same nonsense all over again without adding anything new - as asked - then he can't complain if it ends up in the bin.

 

[Jazzz]

If you are going to ask questions as to someone's opinion, you must let the person answer freely without adding hoops on the end. That's what you did. I answered.

Of course we are here for serious discussion.

 

[detective-boy]

The twattishness bar is raised yet again:

Mmm. I've seen plastic melting/burning, Kerosene tanks on fire and I've worked with metals at high temperatures. Plastic and fuel don't look like that.

OK so far, but then we get ...

What you've personally smelt and heard from burning buildings doesn't really have much to do with what we can see in this video, though, does it?

referring to a comment by editor. Fantastic!!!

 

[editor]

Your requests for 'credible new evidence' was just introducing a silly arbitrarily subjective hoop after the fact - poor show editor. If you are going to ask questions as to someone's opinion, you must let the person answer freely.

Then why didn't you just fucking answer the question when asked then, you dishonest wriggler?



But seeing as you seem to have suffered some bizarre amnesia that has led to you completely forgetting what I've already told you countless, countless times before, let me spell it out for you in simple words:

It is not acceptable for you - or anyone else - to keep on endlessly repeating the same 9/11 delude-a-loon drivel unless you have some new, solid, relevant and credible evidence to present.

FYI: 'Credible' means something coming from a respected source (definitely not prisonplanet) and 'new evidence' is not the uneducated witterings of a Hollywood celeb, a studio clap-o-meter or the latest, fact-unaccompanied, "here's what I think" fantasy.

 

[Azrael23]

9/11 was an inside job.

Sad but true.

BTW in case your wondering why there are no hyperlinks or media articles or govt documents or ANY sources....i`m using the Editor approach.

Editor, why is prisonplanet not a credible source, you do realise its mostly just links to mainstream media articles and interviews? Theres a commentary on some things but its not presented as fact, the whole point is that you look at all the sources first! You cite popular mechanics as a trusted source..... Get with the programme!

 

[Jazzz]

editor -

I can scarcely take these rants seriously any more