Statement on WSMR website now too. http://www.wrexhamandshropshire.co.uk/news-item.php?id=131
Wrexham and Shropshire: the best railway company in the UK?
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thats a right pain, I was finally gonna get round to using them in july, go up to shrews, and aim to cycle to pembroke via Aber in a week
editor
hiraethified
I'm really pissed off about this
http://www.urban75.org/blog/wrexham-shropshire-railway-company-closes/
http://www.urban75.org/blog/wrexham-shropshire-railway-company-closes/
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Terrible news, especially for the people who work for WSMR who were to a man and woman by far the most helpful people I have ever had look after me on a train, or solve what minor issues I had when I phoned up to change tickets, seek a refund etc etc. Especially sad that this was announced on the same day that Passenger Focus announced that, once again, WSMR were the top rated railway company in the country for passenger satisfaction, but I suppose noone should be surprised that the best railway goes bust when the worst (NXEA and FCC) trundle on, robbing passengers and generally being shit whilst hoovering up vast piles of government subsidy.
Also, and please forgive me if this sounds like a rant, but how fucked up is this happening when the WAG has announced another incarnation of the hideously oversubsidized , deeply inconvienient (serving nowhere between Llandudno and Chester) and generally useless Gerald vanity train between Holyhead and Cardiff?
Also, and please forgive me if this sounds like a rant, but how fucked up is this happening when the WAG has announced another incarnation of the hideously oversubsidized , deeply inconvienient (serving nowhere between Llandudno and Chester) and generally useless Gerald vanity train between Holyhead and Cardiff?
Proper Tidy
Arsed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12284468
Fucks sake, now only train from Wrexham to London is the well expensive Virgin one...
Fucks sake, now only train from Wrexham to London is the well expensive Virgin one...
Shame.
Seems there is no place for good operators today.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ire-rail-to-halt-london-services-2194727.html
Even ending business in a very fair way. They gave it their best.
Seems there is no place for good operators today.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ire-rail-to-halt-london-services-2194727.html
Even ending business in a very fair way. They gave it their best.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
One thing - they are not some plucky little operation, they are owned wholly by the vast German state railway.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
...
Not sure what Bob Crow's problem is. They gave it their best. Provided a good service at a good price. Doing their best to find other jobs for employees. Making full redundancy payments. Honouring all debts etc...
It just didn't work. Why should they continue losing money? I don't understand the 'fast and loose' accusations.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
They didn't 'give it their best' - they have failed, because of Virgin's opposition, to get more stops between Wrexham and Marleybone, and since then have run down the service from five a day to four a day to three a day. They are owned by a vast multinational company which generates huge profits, and at present the promises to find alternative employment for all 55 staff are just that, promises - not to mention those jobs now at risk because of reduced traffic through Wrexham General.
Whether they're a multi-national, or not, they seem to have been pretty fair. Seems they also own Arriva. No idea what the financial implications of that are. It's a shame it hasn't worked for whatever reasons. Ideally, all public transport would be state run IMO, but I doubt very much if any UK Government would have stepped in if that was the case.
It was losing money. That isn't the goal of private business. They're effectively stepping down and honouring all debts/redundancy payments. Good for them. If more multi-nationals behaved this way there would be far less opposition. Probably a rare exception amongst a bad bunch. From where I'm looking I can't point any fingers of blame at the owners.
e2a; 99% customer satisfaction! Just not enough customers then. Who do you blame for that?
It was losing money. That isn't the goal of private business. They're effectively stepping down and honouring all debts/redundancy payments. Good for them. If more multi-nationals behaved this way there would be far less opposition. Probably a rare exception amongst a bad bunch. From where I'm looking I can't point any fingers of blame at the owners.
e2a; 99% customer satisfaction! Just not enough customers then. Who do you blame for that?
Proper Tidy
Arsed
It has lost money because the service has been ran into the ground by DB - and lets remember that this service was set up with public money from the Welsh govt. It is pure bollocks to claim that there is not enough demand for a Wrexham to London service - WS were partly limited by Virgin's objections, as they run a Chester to London service and prevented WS from getting more stops between Wrexham and London. However, DB have also contributed heavily, on purpose, by running down the service and making it unprofitable. At the very least DB should be forced to pay back the public money they've taken from Welsh taxpayers. And remember, we've seen nationalisation of regional rail services in the UK quite recently...
editor
hiraethified
Here's how Virgin crippled the service from the start:
Despite these restrictions, the service started to do well until:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrexham_&_Shropshire
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Yeah, lot to do with the route. Chester to London is dead quick really, 2.40. Pricey as fuck hough. Was between 4 to 5 hours on WS, but could get returns in advance for £20.
Why would a private company run a potentially profitable service into the ground? What are they gaining? They have pumped a lot of private/commercial money into WS as well as taking the public money. Should they compensate their shareholders as well as pay back public money?
I can't see what they have to gain by purposely running a service with such rave reviews into the ground. What are you suggesting their interest is?
The food on W&S was great.
Did that Virgin rival service you mention above ever happen?
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Yep, always fucking rammed too, have often had to stand for almost the whole journey on Virgin.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Because DB decided they could make more money putting their efforts in elsewhere. Are you really this naive Stanley?
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Yeah, one Virgin service a day starts in Wrexham instead of Chester.
Make more money, or simply not lose money?
The 2.9 Million loss would take into account any government subsidy. The fact that the government had to offer money to attract private operators suggests it wasn't a big profit maker anyway. WS tried offering a quality service at good prices to attract customers despite the longer travel time. It didn't work for them. They opted out and are trying to leave things as tidy as possible. For a multi-national they appear to be operating beyond their legal obligations. No doubt Virgin will cash in on their dirty tricks now. As far as I'm concerned, given the choice of using Virgin, or DB backed service in future, I'd choose the latter.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Were they profitable before DB became involved, or before the service level was reduced? I don't think so.
It's very sad that it hasn't worked out; but not entirely unexpected. Remember that these services were extra to those set out at the point of privatisation as being included in the nationally subsidised franchise system. The services only existed because someone reckoned that some money could be made from providing them. If these services should be nationalised, then by that logic any services that are set up by an open access operator that then fail to make money should be nationalised. That's not to say that there mightn't be a good case for retaining the services as a subsidised franchise but that case should be assessed on its own merit, rather than assuming it makes sense to run them just because W&S ran them (at a loss) for a couple of years.
If it's deemed desirable for Wrexham to have an improved service to London then it may be that there are more viable options than running it on the Marylebone route. Maybe some extra services to connect with the Virgin ones at Wolverhampton or something, or even change the Virgin franchise to include more direct trains. It should be up to the SRA to examine the feasibility of this.
As for blaming the failure on Virgin, well, when Virgin agreed to run the WC franchise, terms were included to prevent other operators setting up services that would undermine the revenue they banked on getting when they made the bid. You might not like the fact that that was part of the agreement signed up to, but if so I think the blame should be directed at those who negotiated such terms on behalf of the government. They might well argue that without such terms, the Virgin bid would have been more expensive.
Do you know how much welsh assembly money was put into the W&S operation? I'm not sure it makes sense to demand it all back as presumably it has effectively been part subsidising the service during the time it has been running.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Don't all start up services lose money in the first five years? I gather they lost less money when they ran more services, which tends to suggest they were running the service down. I don't yet have the figures though so I'll come back on that. Bear in mind DB have spat their dummies out before and threatened to withdraw - they haven't been interested in the service since they took over WS.
Was a few million direct to WS and more again to do up Wrexham General from WAG afair.
Was a few million direct to WS and more again to do up Wrexham General from WAG afair.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Crow (and you PT though I will excuse that on this occasion) is talking out of his arse on this one though - it was not a franchise but rather an open access operator, was not cut to preserve profit margins (indeed as you sort of say they assumed it would not make a profit for 3 years) and was not run into the ground by DB, they invested in refurbished stock of a very high quality, kept looking at ways to grow the business and steadily improved journey times (from around 4h 30 to 3h 40 by the end). In fact WSMR and its management have managed to retain their dignity and general soundness even by the way that the business has ended, ensuring that staff are paid up, suppliers paid up and customers covered for future travel. They should be given a medal for that alone in this current age of spivs, cheats, thieves and assorted other shady business practices, tbh.
Where Crow would have a point is if (as said above) he supported W+S and criticized the unfair restrictions placed on it by the WCML contract's moderation of competition clauses, the attacks on WSMR by Arriva and Virgin, the unfair subsidies given to Virgin and Arriva to run (or try to run) competing services, and the general lack of support from Network Rail (with regards to the paths given) and the WAG, who have on this issue been as shit as they are on nearly everything to do with Wrexham and NE Wales.
Where Crow would have a point is if (as said above) he supported W+S and criticized the unfair restrictions placed on it by the WCML contract's moderation of competition clauses, the attacks on WSMR by Arriva and Virgin, the unfair subsidies given to Virgin and Arriva to run (or try to run) competing services, and the general lack of support from Network Rail (with regards to the paths given) and the WAG, who have on this issue been as shit as they are on nearly everything to do with Wrexham and NE Wales.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Well it would be interesting to see what the figures were (especially in comparison to what's been spent on the N-S wales services mentioned earlier by agricola).
I'm sure most start-ups lose money in the first few years. Very few rail services make any money at all though; the few that do tend to be intensively used intercity services. So it doesn't seem implausible that DB looked at the numbers for the first few years and thought, nah, this is never going to make any money. Of course there may be reasons that it would be in their interests to deliberately run down a service that they thought might eventually become profitable but it isn't obvious to me what they would be in this case. It seems a bit hasty to assume that's what's happened here.
I'm sure most start-ups lose money in the first few years. Very few rail services make any money at all though; the few that do tend to be intensively used intercity services. So it doesn't seem implausible that DB looked at the numbers for the first few years and thought, nah, this is never going to make any money. Of course there may be reasons that it would be in their interests to deliberately run down a service that they thought might eventually become profitable but it isn't obvious to me what they would be in this case. It seems a bit hasty to assume that's what's happened here.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
IIRC the maximum extent of the WAG support was the approx £800,000 spent on refurbishing a bay platform at Wrexham General for overnight stabling of W+S stock (and anyone else who wanted to use it), and even that was cajoled out of them when the WSMR threatened to base itself in Shrewsbury.
The head of WSMR was interviewed on local radio earlier today, its a very annoying interviewer but quite good: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...nd_Shropshire_closes_rail_service/?t=1h07m03s
WWWeed
Bandwidth Bandit
what the fuck? how can they do this?
The virgin trains are already overcrowded to the point its getting dangerous. At euston almost very virgin train causes a stampede of commuters rushing to get a place on an over booked train. it gets so bad they need BTP to stop people going mental when they get told the train is full.
All this is just going to make a bad situation worse....
The virgin trains are already overcrowded to the point its getting dangerous. At euston almost very virgin train causes a stampede of commuters rushing to get a place on an over booked train. it gets so bad they need BTP to stop people going mental when they get told the train is full.
All this is just going to make a bad situation worse....
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