Wrexham and Shropshire: the best railway company in the UK?

[editor]

This announcement from a service this morning has been doing the rounds on twitter and a couple of forums today

By all accounts their service was excellent, shame I never really had cause to use it.

That's really sad. The impression I got from my journeys on the W&S was that they were a real close crew who actually gave a fuck.

 

[BigTom]

http://www.shropshirefightsback.org.uk/

There's a link to a petition about that last train on the front page here.
I had no idea the service was going until I saw them post about it today.

I guess this means that people have to go telford -> brum (or stoke?) -> london now ?

edit: just read more and this is the whole company closing, isn't it.. not just them removing a train route
why is it the govt. will subsidise crap services so they can exist but when a company seems to be doing things right they can't continue.

 

[agricola]

It wasn't me demonstrating, I was out on the piss. But the fact remains that it isn't Arriva or Virgin laying off 55 staff, nor is it Arriva or Virgin fucking off two years before they promised. You're right about WAG's attitude towards Wrexham, but that doesn't entirely excuse W&S.

It does - the service was not making money. It was their money they were losing, and they walked away after improving the service, improving the journey times and trying more than a few things to try and make it work; its not as if they have just rolled a dice and called the whole WSMR shebang off. The staff have been (certainly I havent heard any reports that they havent been) treated well* even after the company has ceased trading, as have the many small firms which supplied it.

Yes, its a tragedy that a service that was clearly cherished by many, many people has come to an end, but I cannot really fault the people who were (after all) making a big loss taking a decision which will call a halt to those losses.

* at least by modern standards when companies cease trading

 

[Proper Tidy]

WS signed up to five years but have bailed after three. Staff were given one week's notice, and afaik no alternative employment has been found for them, despite DB's statement.

 

[teuchter]

What do you mean by "signed up"?

They weren't running a franchise - they were an open access operator taking a gamble at providing a service extra to what is set out in franchise agreements and extra to what is publicly funded. Sadly that gamble didn't pay off because not enough people wanted to use the service.

 

[Proper Tidy]

When they applied for WAG money for the station they did so on the proviso that they would run the service for a minimum of five years.

 

[agricola]

When they applied for WAG money for the station they did so on the proviso that they would run the service for a minimum of five years.

Maybe thats how that they applied for it, but that is not what the WAG spent the money on. IIRC all the funding the WAG provided was given to Network Rail, for a depot to be built at Wrexham General which the WSMR and other providers could use:

The Welsh Assembly Government has today announced an offer of funding for Network Rail to construct a new railway depot at Wrexham.

This latest investment in the railway infrastructure will lead to the creation of 55 new and permanent employment opportunities, and will be available to all Train Operating Companies, including the Wrexham, Shrewsbury, Marylebone Railway (WSMR) and Arriva Trains Wales.

http://wales.gov.uk/about/cabinet/cabinetstatements/2006/1008694/?lang=en (please click on the word docs at the bottom of the page)

Compare that support with the £8000 a day for Gerald, or the £7.5 million they gave Arriva to upgrade the 158s.

 

[Proper Tidy]

http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/98418/wrexham-councillor-brands-rail-firm-owners-a-disgrace-.aspx

A COUNCILLOR yesterday branded the owners of Wrexham and Shropshire railway a “disgrace”.

Cllr Mark Pritchard was speaking at a Wrexham Council executive meeting where the closure of the train company was called as an urgent item of business.

Last week Wrexham and Shropshire, which ran direct train services between Wrexham, Shropshire and London, announced it was closing after three years in operation.

Managers made the announcement on Wednesday and the final service to London was on Friday. Cllr Pritchard said: “The way they acted is a disgrace.

“They should have had the courtesy of a consultation. It’s not the way we do business and it’s sad the way they have acted.

“It’s a disaster for Wrexham as I feel this train put Wrexham on the map.

“It’s a sad day for Wrexham.”

http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/98536/wrexham-line-protesters-could-form-action-group-.aspx

THOUSANDS of people protesting at the axing of the direct Wrexham to London rail link could form an official action group to campaign for it to be restored.

 

[teuchter]

More people that don't understand the nature of open access rail services, then.

 

[Proper Tidy]

More workers who think that giving them a few days notice is shit, and more people who think shutting down the service without any sort of consultation - or indeed notice - is bang out of order, then.

 

[agricola]

More workers who think that giving them a few days notice is shit, and more people who think shutting down the service without any sort of consultation - or indeed notice - is bang out of order, then.

Not according to the comments on the first article, and indeed neither article mentions any comment from those who actually worked on the service - in fact most of the comments on both articles are aimed squarely at the uselessness of Wrexham councillors and the WAG generally.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Is two days notice acceptable? And I can assure you the workers are not happy.

Whilst the actions of WAG and the other operators are deplorable, it does not in any way, shape or form excuse DB.

 

[teuchter]

If the workers haven't been given a decent redundancy settlement then I agree that is out of order.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Oh, so if they get a decent pay-off it's all okay then? I mean, it's not as if there is a shortage of jobs at the moment. Oh.

Also, DB promised to find 'alternative work'. I'm not sure arranging an appointment at the jobby really cuts it.

 

[agricola]

A new rumour doing the rounds: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=41071

I have it from an impeccable source ATW are to take over three W/S sets, so that both WAG Expresses will run via Wrexham

This is the reason for DB pulling the plug on W/S.

The Minister is now being accused of handling this badly by his own party, in fact it seems he is the reason for W/S being folded and getting 55 put out of work in Wrexham for his asperations.

It is also reported the CEO of W/S as saying WSMR victim of "short termism" by DB Regio . He predicted it would have been in profit by Feb 12. Thinks WAG 2 has been handled very poorly by all concerned

Also the expanded Gerald service is, apparently, getting £3.7 million above what it already gets in subsidy off the WAG. But it might stop at Wrexham, now!

 

[teuchter]

Do you really expect DB to provide some sort of Welfare State service? I don't see why they should be expected to provide any more generous settlement than any other commercial operation. And you seem to be jumping the gun a bit anyway - do you expect them to have found and secured new jobs for everyone, and then announced as much, all within a week of shutting the service.

I will bet you there are all sorts of negotiations going on at the moment about where the trains themselves will go. Possibly on new ATW services (including the additional WAG express) if some rumours are to be believed. As DB also own ATW it is quite possible that some of the staff will be transfered to these too.

It would seem reasonable to give things at least a month or two before making accusations on the staff's behalf that they have not been treated well. I'm not aware of any of them having complained so far.

 

[teuchter]

A new rumour doing the rounds: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=41071



Also the expanded Gerald service is, apparently, getting £3.7 million above what it already gets in subsidy off the WAG. But it might stop at Wrexham, now!

yeah I read that thread too. None of the 'rumours' (especially the one about WSMR being about to return a profit) seem to be backed up by much at the moment. I'm sure Proper Tidy will not worry about that though.

 

[teuchter]

You'd think it would be more sensible for the WAG to subsidise the WSMR operation instead wouldn't it.

Would it be politically unacceptable for the WAG to fund a service that took Welsh people to London?

 

[Stanley Edwards]

http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/98418/wrexham-councillor-brands-rail-firm-owners-a-disgrace-.aspxhttp://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/98536/wrexham-line-protesters-could-form-action-group-.aspx

Oh! Did somebody say Wrexham? Oh! That's my job. Erm... 'blah, blah, blah'.

That'll do.

Where's me allowance?

 

[agricola]

You'd think it would be more sensible for the WAG to subsidise the WSMR operation instead wouldn't it.

Would it be politically unacceptable for the WAG to fund a service that took Welsh people to London?

It probably would be unacceptable, though as oft cited on these forums they have no problems subsidizing both train and plane services between points in the north-west of Wales and Cardiff, and indeed they will almost certainly help to fund the electrification of the Paddington-Cardiff line, should that ever happen. As for subsidy, I would prefer it if they (the WAG, and NR) hadnt thrown so many spanners in the WSMR works, rather than throw money at it.

 

[teuchter]

If that action group manage to get the service restored, then well done to them by the way. I genuinely wish them the best of luck.

 

[Proper Tidy]

yeah I read that thread too. None of the 'rumours' (especially the one about WSMR being about to return a profit) seem to be backed up by much at the moment. I'm sure Proper Tidy will not worry about that though.

When have I said they were about to turn a profit? I've no idea. My position is simple. DB are fucking massive. They've made a commitment and they've broken it. This has real implications for Wrexham, which is really fucking suffering as it is at the moment.

And you may want to think again about the staff being oh so happy about losing their jobs. Why do you think RMT are calling for nationalisation? What people do trade unions represent?

2 days notice and you say 'do you really expect DB to provide some sort of Welfare State service?' I expect them to do a fuck of a lot more, yes. I expect them to keep their promises. The jobby comment wasn't just a glib remark btw.

55 jobs lost, less than a week's notice, profitable owners, £1 million public money spunked away. Dress it up how you like.

 

[TopCat]

My boss is back on Virgin for double the price and half the service.

 

[teuchter]

@PT

You're just making it up as you go along though, with no regards for the actual facts.

You can't show us any evidence of this 'promise' you believe DB made
You don't know what redundancy deal the ex-WSMR employees have received but nonetheless you accuse DB of treating them unfairly
You keep on going on about this million quid that was 'given' to WSMR despite the stuff that's been posted which shows that the money (less than a million) was given to Network Rail for a depot which can be used by any operator
You seem to ignore the fact that the service having been withdrawn, Wrexham is no worse off in terms of rail links than it was before WSMR introduced it, funded by private investment most of which has been lost to those investors in the meantime.

Nobody wants to see people lose their jobs and no-one wants to see such a good rail operator fail but if you're going to go off on one about this then you should at least base it on reality.

Let's see what happens in the next couple of months. Where the trains end up may or may not raise questions about DB's motives for deciding to terminate the WSMR services. Then you can have a go at them as appropriate.


PS no-one said you said they were about to turn a profit. That rumor was to be found in the railforums thread linked to earlier.

 

[Proper Tidy]

£1 million.

A decent redundancy payout doesn't make two days notice acceptable, it doesn't make DB's decision to not bother consulting staff, unions or govt acceptable, and it doesn't negate the fact that these workers are now entering a thoroughly fucking depressed labour market. DB have treated them unfairly. Two days you bellend.

WS blackmailed the Welsh govt for the money, by threatening to move to Shrewsbury and by making a big deal of the five years left on their seven year agreement.

I don't give a fuck about private investors.

Wrexham is 60+ jobs worse off (55 plus around half a dozen jobs reliant upon the service).

It is based in reality. And unlike you, I know people acually affected by this, so fuck off.

And if I didn't make the claim, then don't infer that I did.

None of the 'rumours' (especially the one about WSMR being about to return a profit) seem to be backed up by much at the moment. I'm sure Proper Tidy will not worry about that though.

 

[teuchter]

Still no evidence of any kind of agreement that obliged WSMR to run the service any longer than they wanted. (FYI the seven year agreement you refer to grants WSMR track access rights for that period; it does not oblige them to take up those rights or run the services for the full period)

I would assume that the workers' notice period would have been in their contracts or otherwise covered by employment law and that DB will be required to give them full pay for that period. That is what usually happens is it not? The company has not gone insolvent.

And I didn't infer you made the claim, I speculated that you might, on the basis that much of what you have said on the thread so far was not backed up by fact.

Anyway, I am just arguing for the sake of arguing, not that that makes what I am saying wrong. I feel sorry for the people who have lost their jobs too.

 

[agricola]

£1 million.

That article has to be the most complete load of shite ever written on the WSMR - reading that you would think that the people responsible for WSMR were "RMT Wrexham branch with support from the Welsh Assembly government and DoT following a sustained campaign by communities and businesses in Mid and North Wales for a direct train to London other than Virgin's West Coast service", as opposed to the people who actually funded the launch of the service (one of whom was DB).

A decent redundancy payout doesn't make two days notice acceptable, it doesn't make DB's decision to not bother consulting staff, unions or govt acceptable, and it doesn't negate the fact that these workers are now entering a thoroughly fucking depressed labour market. DB have treated them unfairly. Two days you bellend.

Maybe not, but those workers are a damn sight better off than many others who have been made redunant recently. As for consulting with government, I would not be at all surprised if the WAG knew and approved in advance of everyone else knowing.

WS blackmailed the Welsh govt for the money, by threatening to move to Shrewsbury and by making a big deal of the five years left on their seven year agreement.

Thats bollocks though - they asked the WAG for a grant which would have enabled W+S to base trains in Wrexham. The WAG refused this, despite not refusing the nearly £5 million subsidy for Gerald I and II, the £7.5 million to upgrade Arriva's trains or the £40 per passenger they give for the WAG Air farce. W+S then pointed out that, without the funding for the depot (which lets not forget, went to Network Rail and not W+S), they would be based in Shrewsbury instead. That is not blackmail.

I don't give a fuck about private investors.

Well you should, it was private investors who set up WSMR, who ran it, who invested in improvements to it, and who paid up for its ending. I dont recall anyone from the RMT or the WAG putting money into WSMR.

Wrexham is 60+ jobs worse off (55 plus around half a dozen jobs reliant upon the service).

But who is responsible for that? WSMR faced massive challenges because of Virgin, the WAG and Network Rail, challenges which were unfair, and which in the end defeated it.

It is based in reality. And unlike you, I know people acually affected by this, so fuck off.

What reality? The two planks of your argument are wrong.

 

[Proper Tidy]

It's an RMT press release you fool. You and the dour contrarian keep accusing me of a lack of truth, but you're the ones who keep speculating - 'maybe DB did it for some wholesome reason we'll learn more about in a few months', 'maybe WAG knew and approved in advance of everyone else knowing'. Maybe I'll grow some testes on my ears and make medical science.

'But other workers also get fucked over'. Nice. I'll repeat it again. Two days notice. You come into work and are told in two days time you have no fucking job. What a wonderful employer!

It was blackmail. WS had already announced they would be using Wrexham Gen and would create "60+ jobs", then they spat their dummies out. Fine, it got them the money and they created some of these promised jobs. But to then fuck off a couple of years later, after mouthing off about creating these jobs for a minimum of five years? Do me a favour.

I don't give a fuck about private investors, and I shouldn't give a fuck about private investors. They are more than capable of looking after themselves and hang the consequences, as we've established.

DB are responsible for the way they've behaved, nobody else. Do you work for them?

 

[agricola]

It's an RMT press release you fool. You and the dour contrarian keep accusing me of a lack of truth, but you're the ones who keep speculating - 'maybe DB did it for some wholesome reason we'll learn more about in a few months', 'maybe WAG knew and approved in advance of everyone else knowing'. Maybe I'll grow some testes on my ears and make medical science.

Er - no. You have claimed that the WAG gave funding to W+S, and broke a promise to stay for five years. The facts show that the WAG didnt contribute a penny of subsidy to W+S, and your insistance that there was a promise to stay for five years has still not been backed up by any actual evidence either. At this rate you probably will claim to have bollocks for ears, as long as private investors havent put them there of course. As for that being an RMT press release, that would explain why it was so laughably wrong in almost every respect.

'But other workers also get fucked over'. Nice. I'll repeat it again. Two days notice. You come into work and are told in two days time you have no fucking job. What a wonderful employer!

That is unfortunate, but meaningless if they have been compensated as per normal arrangements - either by finding them alternative employment, or providing full redundancy payments. Its not as if they were paid up those two days and then told to get lost, is it?

It was blackmail. WS had already announced they would be using Wrexham Gen and would create "60+ jobs", then they spat their dummies out. Fine, it got them the money and they created some of these promised jobs. But to then fuck off a couple of years later, after mouthing off about creating these jobs for a minimum of five years? Do me a favour.

You are confused here, probably deliberately. The "blackmail" resulted in the WAG giving Network Rail funding to build a depot capable of stabling stock and housing train crew at Wrexham General. This depot (as my previous link showed) was not solely for W+S's use, it was for all operators who used the station, including everyone's favourite ATW. Had the WAG not put the money up, the company would have based itself in Shrewsbury, where there were facilities already, where its head office was and where the main demand for the service was. This would have meant no W+S jobs in Wrexham, a poorer service to Wrexham, and would (and did) incur the wrath of locals into yet another example of the WAG being unconcerned about anything in NE Wales. They then decided to do as little as they could get away with, hence the £900,000.

I don't give a fuck about private investors, and I shouldn't give a fuck about private investors. They are more than capable of looking after themselves and hang the consequences, as we've established.

Then you really have no idea about this issue, do you? The company was set up by private investors, run at the behest of private investors, invested into by private investors and closed by private investors. If you dont give a fuck about them why on earth are you posting on this thread? If those private investors hadnt invested their money in the first place, there would have been no W+S.

DB are responsible for the way they've behaved, nobody else. Do you work for them?

No. Did you ever use the WSMR service?

 

[Proper Tidy]

'That is unfortunate, but meaningless'. Says it all. People's jobs. Shall they just go and get another one? And a snide anti-union remark. Bit of a cunt aren't you?

The funding was given because WS wanted to run the service from Wrexham Gen. You can bang on all you like about it going to Network Rail but it doesn't fucking matter, it was provided on the basis of WS running the service for five more years, and primarily for the benefit of WS. Neither Arriva nor Virgin use Wrexham Gen for anything other than a stop. Only WS used Wrexham Gen as an operational centre, so it's now a fucking expensive white elephant. And 'give us public money or we take our ball home' is fucking blackmail.

Won't somebody think of the private investors!

And yeah, I used them, they were decent. What the fuck does that have to do with anything? I quite like Sky Sports News but it doesn't make Murdoch a fucking saint does it?