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Wrexham and Shropshire: the best railway company in the UK?

Very complicated , with lots of issues.

WSMR was "open access" - only taken over by DB as a related company , when the latter acquired Chiltern. No doubt a fabulous service and much praised for all sorts of reasons , not least the service , staff and so. The killer fact is that it's trains had poor paths - (reflecting a very crowded railway approaching London and in the West Midlands , plus , despite paying quite cheap track access rates , it was a failry high cost operation as a result of using chunky , track walloping class 67 locomotives - cost per mile very expensive) low volume trains , serving a niche market with slow end to end times.

When the WCML timetable was scoped back in the early 2000.s - efforts were made to give Wrexham good connections via Chester into what is now an hourly Virgin service. The latter has done really well , with excellent loadings picked up over the last 2 years in particular - note the level of services via Wrexham has improved massivly over the last decade or less , with much better through links to Cardiff and Birmingham via Shrewsbury.

DB are in effect a state nationalised international operator - but like all business (especially here , where there was no operating subsidy bar some funding to pay for "depot" facilities) - has a duty to minimise losses in all its activities. Much like BR did.

Its very sad to see it going - but with a HS2 link in the future (nimbies and Wolmer like critics permitting) - there will be good options for a reborn service with good , fast paths into Euston via Salop say - giving a genuine fast , direct service.
 
Just did some checking - you can get a 1st advance via Chester for a £60 "commitment" - at convenient times for tommorrow - with a 15 min connection at Chester into a starting train (so no seat issues , plus food etc thrown in) -plenty of other fares around this price. Dedicated fans can check out Arriva fares via Birmingham International , and a cheapo Virgin fare from there whcih can be got for around £15 , or a very affordable London Midland deal on an air con train but going via Northampton. All much better than the bus.

Or you can get an NX coach taking 6hr+ for £12 - £30.
 
Question for davesgcr - the press releases etc are blaming the failure on the 'economic downturn' but do you reckon it would have had a chance of success otherwise? I've always wondered how it could really ever have turned a profit.
 
Just did some checking - you can get a 1st advance via Chester for a £60 "commitment" - at convenient times for tommorrow - with a 15 min connection at Chester into a starting train (so no seat issues , plus food etc thrown in) -plenty of other fares around this price. Dedicated fans can check out Arriva fares via Birmingham International , and a cheapo Virgin fare from there whcih can be got for around £15 , or a very affordable London Midland deal on an air con train but going via Northampton. All much better than the bus.

Or you can get an NX coach taking 6hr+ for £12 - £30.

The last time (and to my eternal regret now) I went home I used Virgin, the free food (admittedly it was on one of those little diesel non-Pendolino things) in first class consisted of a tiny packed of crisps, a smaller packet of biscuits and two film-container sized cans of Virgin cola, all of which I had to go and get myself from the buffet car. The contrast with WSMR was massive, though admittedly of course one operator has ceased training and one hasnt.
 
Question for davesgcr - the press releases etc are blaming the failure on the 'economic downturn' but do you reckon it would have had a chance of success otherwise? I've always wondered how it could really ever have turned a profit.


I reckon they could've eventually, as I said earlier in the thead, I had this crazy idea about cycling halfway around Wales and thought I might as well see what their like and planned the trip around them.

while I oppose the privatisation of the railways on principle, W+S are the exact kind of outfit that the free market was supposed to allow to flourish, and the fact that they've been sent to the wall like this is a real shame
 
Virgin is a dreadful railway and those nasty mean Pendolino trains manage to make train travelling as pleasant as being on a RyanAir bucket.

Travelling on the W&S was actually a pleasure.
 
Trying to be neutral - airline standards and glorious train catering of old (mind you , East Coast does pretty well food wise) is a hard one.

To be succesfull , in todays high cost railways (think 1994 act , train leasing costs , and track access charges - the latter which swallow up more than 50% of costs before a wheel turns) - none of which existed before the blessed Mr Major. - you need high volume and a good product. Sure - this existed with great staff and catering , but if you dont have (a) passenger volume , (b) Journey time (c) good pread of timetabled paths - it dont work!!!

Question - do vertically integrated railways work with market forces ? (10.000 words please - with examples)
 
Virgin is a dreadful railway and those nasty mean Pendolino trains manage to make train travelling as pleasant as being on a RyanAir bucket.

Travelling on the W&S was actually a pleasure.

I don't think the Pendolinos are that bad really. Certainly you can't compare them with a RyanAir cabin. The reason they feel smaller inside than most UK stock is that they tilt so the profile has to be shaved down a bit. And the result of them being able to tilt is that journey times have been improved. If I'm on a Pendolino I'm usually travelling to Glasgow and the journey time does become significant on that length of trip. I kind of miss the old Mk3 loco hauled stock but that's really only because I'm a loser train spod. I'm sure most passengers are pretty happy with the Pendolinos and the improved journey times that come with them. My main complaint is the windows not lining up with seats thing.

The Voyagers are a bit crap though, that much is true. Most of them aren't run by Virgin any more anyway.
 
I don't think the Pendolinos are that bad really. Certainly you can't compare them with a RyanAir cabin.
The last one I was on there was NO WINDOW next to my sat which makes the Pendolinos very very crap.

And the (guffaw) buffet is the worst thing I've seen on long distance train.
 
Virgin is a dreadful railway and those nasty mean Pendolino trains manage to make train travelling as pleasant as being on a RyanAir bucket.

.

Really? I've travelled the length and breadth of the UK and I was always relived whenever I found I could use Virgin (granted I wasnt paying). The trains were hands down the fastest and most comfortable, however yes the window thing can be a bit irritating.
 
If I can't see out of the window then I about 95% of the fun is gone from the journey. And if you'd ever sampled the food on a W&S train you'll understand why Virgin's offerings are overpriced rubbish in comparison.
 
That was the thing about the Mark IIIs. Windows and seats designed 'as one'.

A few years ago, at Euston, we got turfed off a Pendolino to Liverpool (crew shortage), over to a replacement with Mark IIIs.

I went from a crappy seat (and it must be getting close to Budget Airline seat pitch), to a full table and the airiness of having three spare seats 'contributing' to my space and natural light (which can't be said for bus layouts, no matter how few passengers).

I don't think it's train spoddy thing. Mark IIIs in the original layout are very spacious.

We arrived, by the way, at the same time the Pendolino was scheduled to. To the minute. Maybe these days the Pendolinos do actually run faster, on that route, than the 30 year old rolling stock.
 
I also like the pendolinos to glasgow due to their speed but virgin make the whole thing a bit shit inside. A overpriced shop instead of a buffet with hot water machines that break with horrible regularity. I always take a picnic. The toilets are crap and the lack of windows due to cramming in the extra seats is shit.

Its also a bit galling it took so long to sort out the west coast which was left to rot when Thatcher killed the APT. I got to the stage it was so unreliable I always went up the east coast. The tenure of that bunch (was that stagecoach) that took over the east coast from GNER wrecked that route and ruined the HSTs with a pile in as many seats attitude. :mad::mad:
 
The definitely-not-so-Great Western have managed to fuck up the old carriages by shoving in shitty airline seating so loads more people now end up with limited/barely any window views.

The W&S on the other hand had a policy of refurbing carriages to ensure that the windows lined up with the seats.
 
The definitely-not-so-Great Western have managed to fuck up the old carriages by shoving in shitty airline seating so loads more people now end up with limited/barely any window views.

The W&S on the other hand had a policy of refurbing carriages to ensure that the windows lined up with the seats.

Indeed. One of the few positives from this is that those carriages wont disappear, they will probably end up somewhere on the DB network (!) either as part of Gerald (which currently uses Mark IIs), or alternatively the Chiltern loco-hauled trains between Brum and Marylebone.
 
The definitely-not-so-Great Western have managed to fuck up the old carriages by shoving in shitty airline seating so loads more people now end up with limited/barely any window views.

The W&S on the other hand had a policy of refurbing carriages to ensure that the windows lined up with the seats.

And FGW have fitted out with high intensity rapid-transit style lighting. For three hour+ journeys.

Compare with the Central Line rolling stock. With journeys of an hour, they decided to fit out with subtle lighting and huge windows. FGW, in comparison, just treat their passengers with contempt.

I think their ultimate low was - on three HST sets - converting a single *toilet* into a buffet. You got sent to the end of the train, and you's stare in disbelief as an embarrassed member of staff filled your coffee from an urn mounted in a toilet cubicle.

:mad:
 
The comments on poorly designed train interiors are spot on - especially the lack of window spacing , and the loss of 4 seater tables - the Mk4 standard class are about as far as you can go with volume versus spacing , the GW "tombstone" seating for 3 hour plus journeys is appalling. (plus tinted windows blocking night vision) l

BR did many things right - the Mk3 coach and the HST were absolute winners , they understood passenger comfort in long distance journeys. (though the draft keg beer didnt last long !)
 
W & S was the best railway journey I'd ever been on. Its a disgrace they have been thrown to the dogs.

You now have a choice from Brum to London of a 3 hour, crushed Chiltern Train, a rammed bus-like London Midland train or a shit-smelling, dark, expensive and unpleasant Virgin Train. Hurrah for privatisation! :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
 
W & S was the best railway journey I'd ever been on. Its a disgrace they have been thrown to the dogs.

You now have a choice from Brum to London of a 3 hour, crushed Chiltern Train, a rammed bus-like London Midland train or a shit-smelling, dark, expensive and unpleasant Virgin Train. Hurrah for privatisation! :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


:eek: flippin hell, they are not that bad, lol! its only an hour and 10 to brum from euston isn't it? and last time i did it the ticket was only £10.50 there, and £12 back!
 
If I can't see out of the window then I about 95% of the fun is gone from the journey. And if you'd ever sampled the food on a W&S train you'll understand why Virgin's offerings are overpriced rubbish in comparison.

I've never really considered any train journeys fun, but horses for courses and all that. I've never eaten on any trains as they always looked to be shit petrol station style sambos and the like (in addition Ms grit always took pity on me and packed me a lunch!).
 
I've never really considered any train journeys fun, but horses for courses and all that. I've never eaten on any trains as they always looked to be shit petrol station style sambos and the like (in addition Ms grit always took pity on me and packed me a lunch!).

Thats pretty much why why the demise of WSMR is so sad - the journeys were comfortable, the food was great and the service was exceptional... plus of course one now knows that the only way to get home on the railway is to use Virgin (or go miles out of my way).
 
Thing is, didn't WS promise to run the service for five years? I'm pretty sure that is what they said when they took the WAG money. But three years in... and it isn't as if DB couldn't have sucked it up for a couple of years longer. I'm fairly sure they wouldn't have been allowed to bail out like this in Germany.

People around here are pretty pissed off. Possible demo when the last train rolls in to Wrexham General at 10.30pm tomorrow, I can't make it though.
 
"Demo"? Who are they going to demonstrate against - all the people that didn't use the service and failed to fill the trains?
 
Thing is, didn't WS promise to run the service for five years? I'm pretty sure that is what they said when they took the WAG money. But three years in... and it isn't as if DB couldn't have sucked it up for a couple of years longer. I'm fairly sure they wouldn't have been allowed to bail out like this in Germany.

People around here are pretty pissed off. Possible demo when the last train rolls in to Wrexham General at 10.30pm tomorrow, I can't make it though.

PT, the WAG money they took was given begrudgingly and in any case wasnt spent solely for WSMR, and in any case the way they have run the service - including its ending - has been exemplary. You would be better off demonstrating against the subsidy-hungry Virgin or Arriva services, or better yet asking the WAG why it is that despite nearly eight grand in subsidy a day, why neither Gerald train stops at Wrexham.
 
Just got back from watching the 1830 leave Marylebone. The train (which was five coaches) was packed, many trainspotters and other well-wishers on the bitterly cold platform as well.
 
a shit-smelling, dark, expensive and unpleasant Virgin Train.

I'm glad it's not only me that's noticed Virgin trains smelling of shit.........the first time I thought it was a one-off, the second I became curious as to whether there is something they use on the train that makes it smell like shit.

I get a train at least once a week and cramped and grubby as Southern etc. may be, I've never noticed them smelling of shit. :eek::confused:

A shame about Wrexham and Shropshire. I never had reason to use them, but remember reading the original thread and thinking how good it sounded.
 
The vent for the toilet waste tank on the pendolinos is upwind of the intake for the air conditioning system. :facepalm:
 
The vent for the toilet waste tank on the pendolinos is upwind of the intake for the air conditioning system. :facepalm:

Facepalm indeed. So it's not my imagination, or my misfortune to have spent two return journeys to Birmingham close to someone who'd shat themselves.........
 
PT, the WAG money they took was given begrudgingly and in any case wasnt spent solely for WSMR, and in any case the way they have run the service - including its ending - has been exemplary. You would be better off demonstrating against the subsidy-hungry Virgin or Arriva services, or better yet asking the WAG why it is that despite nearly eight grand in subsidy a day, why neither Gerald train stops at Wrexham.

It wasn't me demonstrating, I was out on the piss. But the fact remains that it isn't Arriva or Virgin laying off 55 staff, nor is it Arriva or Virgin fucking off two years before they promised. You're right about WAG's attitude towards Wrexham, but that doesn't entirely excuse W&S.
 
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