Workers Power have split

[One_Stop_Shop]

Someone above mentioned the AWL and a fairly recent exchange between the Socialist Party and the AWL was hilarious, I couldn't decide who was more crazy between them. From Peter Taffe (the bloke who has led the Socialist Party for longer than Stalin was in power!):

On the contrary, the AWL, before it was called this, through Sean Matgamna and a few other individuals, was, for a very short period, part of Militant – now the Socialist Party – in the 1960s. They constantly raised criticisms from the first moment that they joined our ranks – in the case of Sean Matgamna, as a refugee from the thuggish Socialist Labour League of Gerry Healy. This culminated in them submitting a document of thousands of words for discussion at our national conference just before it was due to take place. The leadership of Militant said that we were prepared to discuss their ideas but properly and fully with full rank-and-file participation. This would not be possible in the time before the conference or at the conference itself; we could not have produced such a lengthy document or reply in time for Militant supporters to read it and make criticisms and comments. But we gave them an undertaking that we would publish the document and circulate it to the supporters of Militant and a full discussion could then take place on their ideas.

It's just totally bonkers, how can a leader of the Socialist Party would think anyone would be interested in a little spat they had with the AWL in the 1960s.

And the AWL responded with this, which if anything, is even funnier:

Peter Taaffe, leader of the Socialist Party, has written two long polemics against AWL over Libya, the second of them digressing to many other things, back to Taaffe's grievances against criticisms in the 1960s.

AWL formally and publicly challenges Taaffe to debate the issues publicly, and we offer him a platform and an audience at our summer school, "Ideas for Freedom", on 8-10 July.

We wrote to the Socialist Party challenging them to a debate on 21 April, as soon as Taaffe's first polemic appeared on the web.

We have written to them again since then, and repeatedly followed up with phone calls to their office. No reply yet: which indicates that they are not sure.

Do they dare venture into public face-to-face debate? On the other hand, do they want the derision they will face on the left if they write at such length and with such a laboured display of indignation, and yet flee public debate?

 

[krink]

you must be less amateur than me, because I don't get it. what's the joke?

david yaffe is from RCG/FRFI paper.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Someone above mentioned the AWL and a fairly recent exchange between the Socialist Party and the AWL was hilarious, I couldn't decide who was more crazy between them. From Peter Taffe (the bloke who has led the Socialist Party for longer than Stalin was in power!):



It's just totally bonkers, how can a leader of the Socialist Party would think anyone would be interested in a little spat they had with the AWL in the 1960s.

And the AWL responded with this, which if anything, is even funnier:

in the Socialist Alliance where I was, this kind of
debate will take place on a weekly basis.

 

[SpineyNorman]

This is a great thread by the way

 

[SpineyNorman]

Are Spiked and co on the list?

Yes. We might be talking about different Lists though

 

[butchersapron]

Lets have some Sean matgamanana poetry please.

 

[Jean-Luc]

That SLP one is an allusion to the logo of the First International

Interesting. What about this one:

http://www.armandhammer.co.uk/products/enamel-care-sensitive

Is there a connection? If so, the logo of the First International lives on as that of a baking soda company.

 

[mk12]

Who is the bunch who are aligned to the American SWP? They're pro-Cuba. They came all the way up from London just to have a coffee with me and try to convert me to their cause.

 

[JHE]

Who is the bunch who are aligned to the American SWP? They're pro-Cuba. They came all the way up from London just to have a coffee with me and try to convert me to their cause.

The Communist League - not sure if they still have a bookshop on The Cut

 

[ViolentPanda]

oh shit, it's probably to late to delete the post too. now what will I wear to avoid being harangued about fucking Cuba?

View attachment 18265

A Nazi era postman's peaked cap?

 

[Delroy Booth]

Who is the bunch who are aligned to the American SWP? They're pro-Cuba. They came all the way up from London just to have a coffee with me and try to convert me to their cause.

Isn't that the Communist League? I remember being on a demo in London a while ago and an Icelandic guy sold me a yearly subscription to the Militant ( I just wanted a copy of the paper tbh coz it's quite historical) and he said he was a member of the Communist League Pathfinder tendency. But I think there's more than one "Communist League" around isn't there? Or isn't it one of those, like Socialist Labour Party, where the name's been recycled over and over through the generations by different groups? I paid him £5 for it, pretty good value.

 

[mk12]

The Communist League - not sure if they still have a bookshop on The Cut

That's them. I remember them telling me they all join the meatpacking industry to try to unionise the...meat..packers.

I think they are different to Pathfinder. I think there's two groups.

 

[krink]

A Nazi era postman's peaked cap?

trev hagl been influencing me with his rants about postage charges.

 

[Jean-Luc]

The Communist League - not sure if they still have a bookshop on The Cut

Don't know, but they are standing a candidate in the City & East constituency in the Greater London elections on 3 May if anybody living there wants to vote for them:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17541400

 

[JHE]

That's them. I remember them telling me they all join the meatpacking industry to try to unionise the...meat..packers.

I think they are different to Pathfinder. I think there's two groups.

No, they are the Pathfinder Press lot. It seems there is at least one other Communist League in the UK, a fragment of a fragment of the old WRP, but I haven't had any experience of them.

The Pathfinder Press lot (or rather few, very few) are the ones who follow the SWP (US) and sell their rag called Militant.

I remember the precursors of the Communist League from about 30 years ago. At that time they were a faction within the Socialist League. (The IMG had changed its name to the Socialist League a few years earlier and there were a few factions within the group that were in permanent tension.) They were keen admirers of the SWP (US) and strongly supported 'revolutionary nationalism' as implemented in eg, Cuba, Nicaragua, Grenada. They wanted Castro and the Sandinistas and the New Jewel movement to join the SWP in forming some 5th International. (I don't think any of those movements reciprocated the enthusiasm.) They were also very keen on putting the small mainly ex-student membership 'into industry'. I think at least one of the other factions also favoured this 'industrial turn', but the pro-SWP lot were the keenest.

I'm not sure why, but I always found the people in the pro-SWP (US) faction more friendly and easy going than the other factions in the Socialist League. Of course, one of the other factions, Gawd help us, went on to become Socialist Action (Ken Livingstone's Trots).

As with the Sparts, there seems now to be a weirdly American flavour to the British group. The 'meat-packing industry' - who says that in Britain? It's pure AmerEng.

When I lived in London I used to attend Cuba Solidarity events sometimes, to see what I could learn about Cuba. The meetings, unfortunately, were almost always dominated by utterly utterly uncritical supporters of Castro. One such person was someone Silberman, an American who I think ran and runs the Communist League (UK).

 

[Geoff Collier]

what year was this? that's surprising, i don't reckon I know anyone who'd react like that, in fact one SP member has a modified england flag as his facebook profile. Could be wrong though, you never know

On the night that England lost the 1990 world cup semi final to Germany my SWP branch held a public meeting which finished just in time to see the penalties. Many of us held to a strange version of revolutionary defeatism which tended to alienate the other drinkers in the bar. I think this was witnessed by the Militant supporter who'd been sent along. Two nights later I attended one of their public meetings and was denounced as ultra left for not supporting England. They might have been different in other place or at other times.

 

[Delroy Booth]

^ Y'see that right there has the makings of a comedy sketch. Revolutionary defeatism via wishing England get knocked out of the world cup? I wish you were making it up.

 

[belboid]

On the night that England lost the 1990 world cup semi final to Germany my SWP branch held a public meeting which finished just in time to see the penalties. Many of us held to a strange version of revolutionary defeatism which tended to alienate the other drinkers in the bar. I think this was witnessed by the Militant supporter who'd been sent along. Two nights later I attended one of their public meetings and was denounced as ultra left for not supporting England. They might have been different in other place or at other times.

I was doing a branch meeting in Leed that night. Smallest meeting we'd had for ages, and two of them couldn't manage to contain themselves until it was over (which would probly have been in time for extra time). Or that could just have been down to the fact that my talk was sodding tedious

 

[frogwoman]

how on earth can you justify wanting england to actually lose the world cup on the grounds of socialism? I can understand not giving a shit about the "nationalism" or wanting to watch it for the football, being so disgusted with the england team you choose another team, but wanting england to lose in the hope it will start a pre-revolutionary situation as workers get disgusted with the bourgoisie organisation of fifa? come on

 

[The39thStep]

Hang on, aren't The Commune a split from Workers Power, or am I just totally lost trying to follow all this?

Incidentally, Workers Power splits seems to produce groups that are better than your average trot. The Commune paper isn't at all bad, and Permanent Revolution may only have about 30 members but the journal they do is one of the best on the left, some of the people involved in it really do know their stuff.

Nutter

 

[discokermit]

how on earth can you justify wanting england to actually lose the world cup on the grounds of socialism? I can understand not giving a shit about the "nationalism" or wanting to watch it for the football, being so disgusted with the england team you choose another team, but wanting england to lose in the hope it will start a pre-revolutionary situation as workers get disgusted with the bourgoisie organisation of fifa? come on

on the other hand, there was a time that if you saw someone on a demo wearing an england top, it would be a milly.

 

[The39thStep]

On the night that England lost the 1990 world cup semi final to Germany my SWP branch held a public meeting which finished just in time to see the penalties. Many of us held to a strange version of revolutionary defeatism which tended to alienate the other drinkers in the bar. I think this was witnessed by the Militant supporter who'd been sent along. Two nights later I attended one of their public meetings and was denounced as ultra left for not supporting England. They might have been different in other place or at other times.

Bambery spoke at at branch meeting in the 80s and denounced us all as the 'Trevor Butcher faction' for not going to branch meetings when the World Cup was on. He proudly told us that Scottish branches carried on as normal.'Why wouldn't they ?' we asked 'They are out of the World Cup?'

I soon forgot about my future career as paper sales organiser

 

[discokermit]

marxism was great during world cups. i remember cc sending heavies to shut down the telly in the institute bar and meeting with open rebellion. the arguments between comrades during sweden v brazil were hilarious.

 

[frogwoman]

wtf why? what was the problem with watching the telly It's the world cup ffs!

 

[SpineyNorman]

Populist jingoism comrade, one of the worst forms of false consciousness there is.

 

[Pickman's model]

wtf why? what was the problem with watching the telly It's the world cup ffs!

yes but it was during MARXISM

 

[discokermit]

yes but it was during MARXISM

and during meetings!

 

[discokermit]

wtf why? what was the problem with watching the telly It's the world cup ffs!

we had to physically defend the telly. no pasaran!

 

[SpineyNorman]

I got a bollocking for sexism at Marxism for telling a lass she was my ideal woman. It wasn't even pervy - can't remember exactly what it was about but she impressed me intellectually. And it was a fucking joke.

Also got told off for sexism for calling someone a twat so I said, "ok, he's a nob then," which was apparently much more acceptable.

 

[frogwoman]

but if it was in a bar then presumably they wouldn't be discussing anything important then It isn't like they'd be listening to speeches in a bar. I hope!

The world cup is great some of my best memories as a kid were having the family round to watch it and my mum making pancakes for everyone during half time and that sort of stuff, i love the world cup, even though every fucking time i manage to convince myself we're gonna win