Wisconsin governor to end ALL collective bargaining rights for state workers.

[Lo Siento.]

Absolutely. In my state the gov unions recently waged a multi millon dollar ad campaign for higher taxes. They used blatant scare tactics & were thoroughly dishonest & they won. Raising taxes on private business during a severe recession.....insane. They were in effect campaigning for private sector layoffs to protect themselves. Reminded me of the propaganda campaign for the Iraq invasion....very clever....Carl Rove would have been proud of them.

Link please. Sounds like bollocks.

 

[DotCommunist]

you don't understand the nature of how labour interacts with the bodies who profit from it do you? Keep the rich man happy else he might not give me any work- servile

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

you don't understand the nature of how labour interacts with the bodies who profit from it do you? Keep the rich man happy else he might not give me any work- servile

Not to mention that Friedman economic theory was disproved long ago. Every time it's been tried its resulted in absolute disaster.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Gov union workers are the privileged few & then play the victim if they're asked to make any sacrifice at all in a time of economic disaster. Don't know much about Wisconsin but in my state of Oregon, state union workers contribute nothing to their cushy pension plans & nothing to their health ins plans & most get automatic pay raises no matter how bad the financial condition of the state. They can't be fired no matter how bad a job they do. They don't give a damn about private sector workers who get fired by the millions. In fact they launch attacks on priv sector workers by using union funds to promote constantly higher taxes to pay for benefits that only they get. They even push for non-union state workers to be laid off. For the 95% of workers who live in the real world, it does get pretty irritating.

You've really bought the far-right's new meme. Demonize and divide working people and the race to bottom is assured.

 

[Santino]

Absolutely. In my state the gov unions recently waged a multi millon dollar ad campaign for higher taxes. They used blatant scare tactics & were thoroughly dishonest & they won. Raising taxes on private business during a severe recession.....insane. They were in effect campaigning for private sector layoffs to protect themselves. Reminded me of the propaganda campaign for the Iraq invasion....very clever....Carl Rove would have been proud of them.

You didn't answer my question. Do you think that lower pay for government workers would translate into lower taxes for working people, or do you think they might result in tax breaks for business that would result in higher profits for shareholders?

 

[ViolentPanda]

People like you are the reason so many Americans have fuck all vacation days, fuck all maternity leave, and need to work two jobs. Why not put some of that famous American can-do spirit to work and wrest some of your labour value back from the people stealing it?

Because too many people still equate private sector labour organisation as somehow "communist" and anti-patriotic.

Guess what, suckers? Patriotism is just another mechanism to get you to tow the government's line.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How would removing union rights help the private sector workers one iota? Do you think lower taxes will get passed onto them? Seriously?

It very obviously doesn't help them, but it does mean that the wankers who are too gutless to organise make sure that everyone gets a bite of the shit sandwich.

 

[TomUS]

You didn't answer my question. Do you think that lower pay for government workers would translate into lower taxes for working people, or do you think they might result in tax breaks for business that would result in higher profits for shareholders?

It would result in more jobs & higher pay & benefits for working people. In my state (& others) the unions promote higher taxes for corporations & high income people (mainly business owners). They in turn pass this on in the form of layoffs, benefit cuts & higher prices. In addition the gov unions are now pushing for a sales tax, which would hit low income people the hardest. Tax breaks for business would also result in higher profits for shareholders. Most of these people are private sector workers who rely on dividends & sales of shares for their retirement since they don't have gov pensions.

Here's the link you asked for. The deception by the unions was truly stunning. It opened my eyes. For every ad against the tax increases there were about 6 or 7 in favor. They claimed the higher taxes were for public services but they were mainly to avoid any cuts for gov union workers.

Union money flowing into Oregon tax campaign
December 23, 2009

Public employee unions and business groups battling over two state tax increases on the January ballot have each raised about $2.3 million to wage their campaigns, new election finance records show.

The union-backed campaign to pass the measures has been raising money faster in recent weeks and still has nearly $1 million in cash. The corporate-financed opposition has only a fraction of that amount on hand as both sides continue their blitz of dueling commercials.

The numbers show that public employee unions, which once were routinely outspent by corporations and business groups, have found ways to even up the money game.

They also underscore the intensity of the fight over the tax increases, passed by Democratic majorities in the House and Senate elected in 2008 with big support from the unions.

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/12/union_money_flowing_into_orego.html

 

[Santino]

If they didn't take it in tax, you'd only spend it on guns.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've all for private sector unions. But private business isn't nearly as amenable to unionization as the gov.

So fucking what? You're just going to sit and whine because it might be hard work?
FFS. People have spent the last 150 years in your country dying so that you have the right to organise, and all you can do is whine, you pissy little tossrag!

Private companies have to constantly innovate to stay competitive. Unions want to freeze everything in place. The economy & technology are changing fast.

Absolute bollocks. Germany has massive private sector unionisation, in the technical and science sector as well as everywhere else, and yet, through a mystical process known as negotiation, they manage to stay on top of technical and economic developments.

What's wrong? Aren't you go-getters up to matching some old-world Krauts?

Gov unions work to advance themselves at the expense of the public. As I said, they behave just like corporations. I see them as pretty much the same.

You know, I've seen Americans whining about public sector unions for decades, and yet you never do anything BUT whine about it. You'd rather drag the union members down to your own level than risk organising yourselves.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not to mention that Friedman economic theory was disproved long ago. Every time it's been tried its resulted in absolute disaster.

And yet it still appears to preferable to Keynesianism for the power-elite of most "western" nation-states. A triumph of greed over good sense.

 

[DotCommunist]

They in turn pass this on

We wish that was true- on an individual level I bet good Americans do. Corps do not, Tom, uniounising is a direct response to the power imbalance between those who hold the purse strings and those who do the work that provides them with a purse to hold the strings of. There are more of us and we make the coin- so fuck them, why should we not unionise. They'll never lose- never concede a fucking inch. So why are you?

 

[ViolentPanda]

You've really bought the far-right's new meme. Demonize and divide working people and the race to bottom is assured.

To be fair, though, US labour had/have a far worse (and greatly extended compared to Europe) time of it in terms of suppression of organisation, plus the idea that organising is somehow "un-American" and/or "communistic" still exerts a grip on the public imagination.

 

[TomUS]

We wish that was true- on an individual level I bet good Americans do. Corps do not, Tom, uniounising is a direct response to the power imbalance between those who hold the purse strings and those who do the work that provides them with a purse to hold the strings of. There are more of us and we make the coin- so fuck them, why should we not unionise. They'll never lose- never concede a fucking inch. So why are you?

I'm not at all against unionizing. I'm against overly powerful government unions that abuse their power & extract unsustainable benefits from the taxpayer....the average worker. The federal gov & many state govs are bloated bureaucracies. Their unions show total contempt for the average worker who pays the bill.

 

[Santino]

I guess it serves those nurses and teachers right for living in those swanky houses and driving their big cars around lording it over the poor private sector workers.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

To be fair, though, US labour had/have a far worse (and greatly extended compared to Europe) time of it in terms of suppression of organisation, plus the idea that organising is somehow "un-American" and/or "communistic" still exerts a grip on the public imagination.

Well yes, its not the days of the Butte Mining Disaster that killed 168 people--yet. The strike for better working conditions that followed was put down by the US military at the point of a bayonnet.

There's some that would like to return us to those days.

 

[DotCommunist]

remember matewan etc.

I don't envy american unionists tbh

 

[Lo Siento.]

It would result in more jobs & higher pay & benefits for working people. In my state (& others) the unions promote higher taxes for corporations & high income people (mainly business owners). They in turn pass this on in the form of layoffs, benefit cuts & higher prices. In addition the gov unions are now pushing for a sales tax, which would hit low income people the hardest. Tax breaks for business would also result in higher profits for shareholders. Most of these people are private sector workers who rely on dividends & sales of shares for their retirement since they don't have gov pensions.

Here's the link you asked for. The deception by the unions was truly stunning. It opened my eyes. For every ad against the tax increases there were about 6 or 7 in favor. They claimed the higher taxes were for public services but they were mainly to avoid any cuts for gov union workers.


http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/12/union_money_flowing_into_orego.html

Reading the bits of the article you didn't quote, the lobbied for a tax rise to defend schools, social services and law enforcement. You have need of any of those things Tom? They did so through a small tax rise (to 10.8%!) or income over $250,000 a year (as in, on any income that people get over and above a wage that is 5 times the national average!) and on businesses making profits over $500,000 a year (to 7.9%!).

It also says that it's the first time that people there voted for a tax increase in 40 years, so it's hardly a regular occurrence.

I mean jesus fucking christ, if you can't ask high earners and profit-making business to contribute a little bit more in a recession, then who the fuck can you ask? You'd prefer that government workers take a cut? How many government workers do you think make $250k a year?

This? This is what opened your eyes? A union campaign against cuts to the public sector?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I mean jesus fucking christ, if you can't ask high earners and profit-making business to contribute a little bit more in a recession, then who the fuck can you ask? You'd prefer that government workers take a cut? How many government workers do you think make $250k a year?

You mean like GE? They paid no tax last year despite huge profits. They also receive billions in tax refunds while demanding wage cuts from their employees.

Last year the conglomerate generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion. The most egregious example is General Electric ( GE - news - people ). Last year the conglomerate generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion.

Avoiding taxes is nothing new for General Electric. In 2008 its effective tax rate was 5.3%; in 2007 it was 15%. The marginal U.S. corporate rate is 35%.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

So much for the rule of law in Wisconsin:

Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi chastised state officials Tuesday for ignoring her earlier order to halt the law's publication.

"Apparently that language was either misunderstood or ignored, but what I said was the further implementation of (the law) was enjoined," Sumi said during a hearing. "That is what I now want to make crystal clear." ....

Walker signed the bill on March 11, triggering a number of lawsuits from opponents. Sumi issued a temporary restraining order blocking Secretary of State Doug La Follette from publishing the bill – typically the last step before a law takes effect.

Republicans got around that by having the Legislative Reference Bureau, another state agency, publish the bill on Friday. They declared victory, saying the law went into effect on Saturday.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/30/wisconsin-union-law-battl_n_842391.html

 

[laptop]

Republicans ... declared victory, saying the law went into effect on Saturday.

That'd be the George W Florida tactic: declare that what you want to happen has happened, and dare the Supreme Court to overturn it?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

That'd be the George W Florida tactic: declare that what you want to happen has happened, and dare the Supreme Court to overturn it?

Sometimes he was a bit premature with that tactic:

 

[TomUS]

Reading the bits of the article you didn't quote, the lobbied for a tax rise to defend schools, social services and law enforcement. You have need of any of those things Tom? They did so through a small tax rise (to 10.8%!) or income over $250,000 a year (as in, on any income that people get over and above a wage that is 5 times the national average!) and on businesses making profits over $500,000 a year (to 7.9%!).

It also says that it's the first time that people there voted for a tax increase in 40 years, so it's hardly a regular occurrence.

I mean jesus fucking christ, if you can't ask high earners and profit-making business to contribute a little bit more in a recession, then who the fuck can you ask? You'd prefer that government workers take a cut? How many government workers do you think make $250k a year?

This? This is what opened your eyes? A union campaign against cuts to the public sector?

Yes, it is what opened my eyes. Gov unions paid for an ad campaign to raise taxes. That tax revenue goes into the pockets of......gov union members. Just follow the money. It was a scam. There were other ways to prevent cuts in public services like making temporary cuts in gov union benefits or a temporary pay freeze for gov workers along with temporary tax increases. The point is the gov unions wouldn't budge an inch. Instead they pushed for tax increases that will be passed on to consumers & private sector workers.

The individual tax increase was on individuals that make $125,000 not $250,000. What the article doesn't say is that a new tax on businesses was added that was based on gross revenue instead of profit. This means that businesses that make no profit or even lose money had their taxes increased. Oregon was already considered a business unfriendly state. Now it's even more so. Oregon has the 6th highest corp taxes & the 5th highest individual income taxes in the country. This is driving businesses out of the state.

Jesus fucking christ, why can't gov union members make some small sacrifice to help the state in a recession in which private sector workers have been slaughtered?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

On the other hand, when the financial sector threatened to stop lending and thereby screw all of the actually useful businesses, and the government got down on their knees and sucked financial cock, underwriting their gambling with your money, did you have any sort of problem with that, or did you just go along with their version of what happened?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

If you want to talk 'scam' look at the relative amounts involved.

 

[TomUS]

On the other hand, when the financial sector threatened to stop lending and thereby screw all of the actually useful businesses, and the government got down on their knees and sucked financial cock, underwriting their gambling with your money, did you have any sort of problem with that, or did you just go along with their version of what happened?

There should be a bunch of bankers in the slammer for the crap they pulled.

 

[Dillinger4]

doublethink

 

[Santino]

Oregon has the 6th highest corp taxes & the 5th highest individual income taxes in the country. This is driving businesses out of the state.

That's meaningless. Someone's got to have the 6th highest corporate taxes in the country. The real question is whether corporate taxes cover the value that companies get from the services provided by the state, which I doubt.

Jesus fucking christ, why can't gov union members make some small sacrifice to help the state in a recession in which private sector workers have been slaughtered?

Fuck you.

 

[Dillinger4]

We are sacrificed all the time. That is why unions exist.

 

[DotCommunist]

ando of course, these cuts to wages and services won't cover the debt. They're ideological. and the projections look like they're only going to prolong a new depression.