Wisconsin governor to end ALL collective bargaining rights for state workers.

[Yuwipi Woman]

Yes, Tom, you did. You've gone on at length about resenting the workers.

 

[ymu]

Read your own post, ffs!

I misread your story. Sorry.

And I haven't forgotton screwups or crooks in the private sector. There are usually consequences....losses, bankruptcy, prison. But we're not talking about the top leadership, but the rank & file.

If workers at co X screw up & provide bad service, the public usually has the choice of buying from co Y or Z. If workers at government X screw up there is no government Y. That's the difference. And that's why I think unions & government don't mix & like FDR I don't think public employees should have the right to strike.

 

[TomUS]

Yes, Tom, you did. You've gone on at length about resenting the workers.

Sorry YW but that's not it. I did not and do not blame the ordinary workers for the screwups of their bosses & that's what I was accused of.

 

[ymu]

Read your own posts! If you don't think like that, why in hell do you write like that? If that's not what you meant, then what the hell did you mean?

 

[SpineyNorman]

I don't think even he's sure of that. He just instinctively knows that the socialist gubmint unions (TM) are the problem - the way you arrive at that conclusion doesn't matter so he can just change the arguments depending on what you've just said. Expect highly paid union bureaucrats to be brought into the debate very soon.

Of course the reality is that any problems in gubmint services are down to the management, not the workers. In fact, where the workers have extra bargaining power the service becomes better and more efficient. But in Tom's head (and he's not alone there - right wingers in the UK are the same) gubmint unions (TM) are the gubmint - they're the management too - by doing this they can claim that gubmint union (TM) workers are paid excessive wages (as the management salaries push up the average) and they can put the blame for bad management at the feet of gubmint unions (TM) rather than at the feet of the bosses. You've got to be the odds on favourite for that race to the bottom now Tom, it's where the smart money's going.

 

[TomUS]

Read your own posts! If you don't think like that, why in hell do you write like that? If that's not what you meant, then what the hell did you mean?

I meant when a private co doesn't serve the public well the public usually has the choice of buying from another co. When gov agencies do not serve the piblic well there's no other choice for the public.

 

[TomUS]

In fact, where the workers have extra bargaining power the service becomes better and more efficient.

I'd say the opposite is usually the case. Where I live gov unions negotiate contracts that make it nearly impossible to get rid of an incompetent employee. Retention & reward are based far more on senority than merit. This degrades public services.

 

[ymu]

I meant when a private co doesn't serve the public well the public usually has the choice of buying from another co. When gov agencies do not serve the piblic well there's no other choice for the public.

And how does that relate to the unions?

 

[TomUS]

And how does that relate to the unions?

Gov unions contribute to the public not being well served. It's often virtually impossible for a unionized gov employee to be let go no matter how incompetent they are. A public school teacher with tenure must be retained even if they are ineffective thus providing poor service to the public. An ineffective private sector union member may have the same right but the public can do business with another co.

I know a state union worker who's job was eliminated due to a reorganization. They were told don't worry we'll find something else for you. They were put in charge of a program they knew nothing about. This is the way the union wants it but it does not serve the public well.

I know a federal union worker who constantly complains about the incompetent people at work & in the next breath says with delight "I can't be fired."

I don't want government agencies where incompetent or unqualified workers must be retained. Do you think this is a good thing?

 

[SpineyNorman]

You've said all this before. It was bollocks then too.

 

[ymu]

Tom, it's bollocks. It's media myth-making. Useless people get shunted around in the private sector too - I've seen it and lived with the consequences. If it's easier for private sector workers to be fired, it's because it's easier for private sector bosses to get away with ignoring employment law because their workers have obediently refused to get organised (and I acknowledge that it has been made very difficult, but you're supposed to live in a fucking democracy, remember?).

And teachers don't get tenure for being bad at their jobs.

What's the difference between a teacher being offered tenure and a lawyer being offered partnership?

You're taking anecdotes narrated by the propaganda mouthpieces of the uber-rich, obediently generalising them and then pointing your finger in precisely the wrong direction. Just like they intended. You're being played like a fiddle. Useful idiots. Divide and rule. Get them tearing each other apart whilst the real villains steal everything they have whilst they're not looking.

 

[TomUS]

And teachers don't get tenure for being bad at their jobs.
Back in school I was taught by several tenured teachers I thought were useless. I'm sure you were too. Teaching skills & attitude can change over time, especially once they've made it in for life. In my state it takes only 2-3 years for a schoolteacher to get tenure & then.....job for life. It's obvious to me that system should be abolished.

But anyway we're all just saying the same things over & over so we'll just disagree on this one & meet another time. Nice talking with you on this.

 

[ymu]

Every profession has it's fair share of incompetents - a shockingly high fair share at that' cronyism and "Buggins' turn" are found everywhere. It's no different in the private sector.

I find it slightly surreal that anyone would focus on the faults of public sector workers when we wouldn't be having this conversation were it not for the global financial crisis caused by rank incompetence and unregulated greed in the private sector, without which Walker could not use the shock doctrine to inflict massive social and economic damage on his electorate.

 

[spring-peeper]

I find it slightly surreal that anyone would focus on the faults of public sector workers when we wouldn't be having this conversation were it not for the global financial crisis caused by rank incompetence and unregulated greed in the private sector, without which Walker could not use the shock doctrine to inflict massive social and economic damage on his electorate.

The faults of the public sector workers have been a subject of discussion long before your banking systems messed up the economy.

 

[ymu]

How much do we owe teachers, nurses, firemen, policemen, regulators, administrators, judges and scientists for the relatively safe and civilised lives we enjoy?

And how many global financial meltdowns have they caused?

And what are the incomes of the best paid among them like compared to those who have just brought us to our knees for the second time in 80 years?

 

[ymu]

When our leaders actually earn their money, fairness will follow

Britain has a pay problem. Outside the US, our business leaders are the most handsomely remunerated in the world. Too many pseudo capitalists are making fortunes for managing pre-existing companies not especially imaginatively or well, while there are too few risk-takers generating genuine wealth and jobs.

There is collective outrage that it is not fair. But as the financial crisis has morphed into a supposed crisis of our public finances, anger has been directed more at overpaid public sector bosses than at business leaders and even bankers. After all, they spend our taxes in a risk-free environment and deliver little value either. It does not matter that their pay is a fraction of their private sector peers: something must be done.

This was the background to the phone call I got from Steve Hilton, David Cameron's head of strategy, a day after the coalition government had formed. Would I investigate the idea of capping senior executive public sector pay at 20 times the lowest-paid person in any public body, but also examine to what extent such a multiple could become a wider social norm? It was an intriguing brief; of course I accepted. My review was published last week.

Answers are not easy, not least because the public sector is hardly the heart of the problem.It became obvious that not only would a pay multiple be arbitrary and unfair in its application as a hard cap, but it was not going to bite; only 70 managers out of a 6 million workforce earn more than 20 times the lowest-paid public sector worker. And the chances of such a multiple, given its weaknesses, becoming a social norm were low. The answer had to lie somewhere else.

Once again, the Tories believed their own propaganda and asked Hutton to attack the public sector fatcats, confident that a 20:1 ratio with the minimum wage (de facto the lowest public sector wage) would send a shockwave through the ranks of those 'enemies of enterprise' in the over-rewarded public sector.

The outcome?

Maximum ratio found in Whitehall: 10:1
Maximum ratio found in the NHS: 14:1
Highest ratio found in a non-quango (university management): 19:1
Number of public sector workers earning more than £300k: 12 (including several from the BBC and 3 British Waterways directors)

It's laughable, truly laughable. They have no idea what ordinary people earn, and their propaganda lies keep coming back to bite them on the arse.

Note that Hutton's report has not received the same screaming headlines as the public sector fatcats stories emanating from the press office of the Tax Avoiders' Alliance.

 

[rikwakefield]

You're taking anecdotes narrated by the propaganda mouthpieces of the uber-rich, obediently generalising them and then pointing your finger in precisely the wrong direction. Just like they intended. You're being played like a fiddle. Useful idiots. Divide and rule. Get them tearing each other apart whilst the real villains steal everything they have whilst they're not looking.

Well put. Sums up the misdirection being pulled perfectly.

 

[Random]

And that's why I think unions & government don't mix & like FDR I don't think public employees should have the right to strike.

And like Saddam Hussein.

 

[Santino]

I'd say the opposite is usually the case.

Why would you say that? Because of some evidence? Because of a wide-ranging study of the productivity of services according to the level of worker control? Or because of some stories you've heard, or some unattributed accusations in the media? Please be specific, thanks.

 

[Miss Caphat]

I second that request. Tom sure "knows" a lot of people who seem like pretty extreme examples of stereotypes

 

[SpineyNorman]

The faults of the public sector workers have been a subject of discussion long before your banking systems messed up the economy.

See bold - strange way of putting it

 

[butchersapron]

Judge strikes down Wis. law limiting union rights

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - A Wisconsin judge on Friday struck down nearly all of the state law championed by Gov. Scott Walker that effectively ended collective bargaining rights for most public workers.

In his 27-page ruling, the judge said sections of the law "single out and encumber the rights of those employees who choose union membership and representation solely because of that association and therefore infringe upon the rights of free speech and association guaranteed by both the Wisconsin and United States Constitutions."

Colas also said the law violates the equal protection clause by creating separate classes of workers who are treated differently and unequally.

The ruling applies to all local public workers affected by the law, including teachers and city and county government employees, but not those who work for the state. They were not a party to the lawsuit, which was brought by a Madison teachers union and a Milwaukee public workers union.

Walker issued a statement accusing the judge of being a "liberal activist" who "wants to go backwards and take away the lawmaking responsibilities of the legislature and the governor. We are confident that the state will ultimately prevail in the appeals process."

 

[Athos]

A friend of mine is an active 'labor unionist' in WI. She'll be delighted!

 

[nino_savatte]

Good news. Now let's hope that other states see sense and retreat from their threat to do the same as Walker (why does he have to share the same name as one my fave vocalists? ).

 

[laptop]

I'm imagining some rather frosty scenes round the negotiating table...




...and doubting that the employers will come to the table at all, if there's a government appeal.