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Wisconsin governor to end ALL collective bargaining rights for state workers.

Dear Mug,

The only people for whom capitalism is always "business as usual" are the people you're defending, private businesses. Large companies have been quite happily making big profits before and during the recession that they caused. When economic recovery happens, they will swallow the vast majority of the benefits, just as they did during the long period of economic growth caused by the advent of neoliberalism. All this whilst our wages stayed exactly the same or decreased in value.

You've evidently got precisely zero understanding of how capitalism actually works, and you're incapable of actually reading and understanding what I'm writing. Companies are constantly trying to maximise profits, regardless of any other economic factor. In your example, if they didn't think they could sell their Soy Sauce for the higher price, they wouldn't raise prices. They do it because they can. They simply aren't making the calculations (costs + reasonable markup) that you think they are.

I don't care what your, probably imaginary, friends tell you, there's no documented research whatsoever suggesting that any "the brain drain" happens on any SIGNIFICANT scale.

If you, living in a country where organised labour is shit on time and again by the state and big business, believe that their defence of their members purchasing power during a recession they had NOTHING TO DO WITH CAUSING is the real problems, and that the real victims are the very capitalists who exploit us, then there's no hope for you.

Yours,

Lo Siento.

I'm done now.
I'd say you are amazingly ignorant about how capitalism works.
The private businesses you despise so much are 99 % made up of average workers. Guess you hate them too.
Oregon's high (& now higher taxes, thanks to the gov unions) are driving people & businesses out of the state & making the recession worse. Sorry if the facts don't conform to your ideology.
 
'cause the way to solve all our problems is that everybody makes a few sacrifices so we can pay off the capitalists' debts, right?!

Mug
No, everybody makes a few sacrifices so we can reduce the budget deficits caused by the recession. Take Econ 101.
 
I think you have a one-dimensional view of economics, Tom. In fact, I think you're presenting 'economics' as an ideology-free discipline. It clearly isn't. It most certainly isn't a science.

What do you mean by this?
The private businesses you despise so much are 99 % made up of average workers.

So answer me this, what percentage of the population owns most of the wealth?
 
I think you have a one-dimensional view of economics, Tom. In fact, I think you're presenting 'economics' as an ideology-free discipline. It clearly isn't. It most certainly isn't a science.

What do you mean by this?


So answer me this, what percentage of the population owns most of the wealth?
Way way too small of a percentage. I agree with you there. High income individuals need their federal taxes increased.
 
I'd say you are amazingly ignorant about how capitalism works.
The private businesses you despise so much are 99 % made up of average workers. Guess you hate them too.
Oregon's high (& now higher taxes, thanks to the gov unions) are driving people & businesses out of the state & making the recession worse. Sorry if the facts don't conform to your ideology.

I'm not the one who seems to think that private capital is the same thing as the workforce in the private sector. That the interests of the latter and former are identical. That would be as ignorant of capitalism as you could possibly get.
 
Way way too small of a percentage. I agree with you there. High income individuals need their federal taxes increased.

how do you arrive at the conclusion that the wealth distribution in the US is unfair, without thinking it might have something to do with kneeling before capital's every demand and complaint?
 
Fuck's sake.

Here's summat I wrote giving a hard headed financial view of our fundamental, state-funded, economic infrastructure:

There are several elements of the New Deal that are not well understood by the stenographers that pass for journalists these days. Here’s just three of them:

1. The New Deal introduced unionization. Because an economy cannot thrive (internally, at least) if its workers do not earn enough to buy the goods that they make. It is said that when Henry Ford was asked why he didn’t use more robots, he replied: “Robots don’t buy cars.” Unionization and collective bargaining were, and are, fundamental elements in the structure of a more stable capitalism.

2. The New Deal introduced a fledgling welfare state (which has, alarmingly, now all but gasped its last breath in the US). This set a safety net below which employers simply could not force workers to go. There was a limit to the downward pressure on wages from the high unemployment that capitalism requires.
Ever wonder why the CBI speak out against caps on immigration, but never against making it difficult for immigrants to work legally? Or why India is taking its census seriously now that they need a larger middle-class? Because they need a functioning welfare state for that to happen. The welfare state keeps people educated, housed, fed, healthy, and able to work (the US never quite got around to the healthy bit though) . This boosts the economy, no matter what those self-serving, venal, ignorant, lying politicians say on behalf of the only voters that matter to them their careers: the top 0.1%.

Most of this government are in the top 0.1% of course. So it’s all pretty tightly stitched up now.

3. The New Deal split the banks into retail or investment, but not both. This was to guarantee that the people would never again pay the losses of professionally incompetent and greedy individuals, pocketing their gains but nationalizing their losses. Retail banking (your and my savings and debts) would be underwritten by the government in the event of a bank failure, but investor beware. That was the substance of the Glass-Steagall Act , 1936. It took them a while to wrestle the bankers to the ground and sit on them long enough to do it, mind.

...

An educated workforce: high literacy and numeracy rates, skilled workers and graduates on tap. There is no profession more productive than a teacher. It’s not possible to do better when your skills cascade out through so many children each year and on into the future of our economy for decades to come.

A ‘flexible’ workforce: that’s ‘unemployed and insecure’, to you and me. Guess what it does to wages

A welfare state: to maintain a pool of workers near places of business, without the need for employers to pay wages high enough to cover local rents. Or pass these labour costs onto customers, lest they are enticed out to poorer areas to shop, and live. And to ensure that there is some level of consumer demand even when times are hard and employment is low.

Universal healthcare: this means free at the point of delivery, paid through general , progressive taxation, with equal access to all. Big pharma and the multinationals, who between them have the US governing parties all sewn up, might hate socialized medicine because they profit massively from the sick, but health insurance cripples the competitiveness of small to medium-sized businesses who cannot compete with the big boys, in purchasing power or staff retention, when they have such massive costs to bear. What do smaller businesses think about the costs forced on them, compared to the gifts lavished on their gigantic competition?

Is that what passes for a free market these days?

The NHS is not only the single most spectacular creation of mankind – what else can you call the third largest employer in the world, performing such a vital and complex function (no disrespect to the Indian railway workers or the Chinese Army)? And with such remarkable dedication, in the face of political attacks from all sides, nearly always eating into cash and energy and skills that could and should have gone into patient care. It’s one of the most productive things you could possibly do for a national economy. An enormous taxpayer-mediated transfer of money from vast multinationals to smaller, local employers, who will spend it locally instead of taking it out of the country. A boon, too, for entrepreneurs, who can afford to take more risks when a broken leg can’t bankrupt them.
 
And here's Adam Smith, explaining why there should be a Land Tax. Yes, that's Adam Smith, Land Tax:

Ground-rents are a still more proper subject of taxation than the rent of houses. A tax upon ground-rents would not raise the rents of houses. It would fall altogether upon the owner of the ground-rent, who acts always as a monopolist, and exacts the greatest rent which can be got for the use of his ground. More or less can be got for it according as the competitors happen to be richer or poorer, or can afford to gratify their fancy for a particular spot of ground at a greater or smaller expense. In every country the greatest number of rich competitors is in the capital, and it is there accordingly that the highest ground-rents are always to be found. As the wealth of those competitors would in no respect be increased by a tax upon ground-rents, they would not probably be disposed to pay more for the use of the ground. Whether the tax was to be advanced by the inhabitant, or by the owner of the ground, would be of little importance. The more the inhabitant was obliged to pay for the tax, the less he would incline to pay for the ground; so that the final payment of the tax would fall altogether upon the owner of the ground-rent.
– Adam Smith
The Wealth of Nations, Book V, Chapter 2, Article I: Taxes upon the Rent of Houses

Have you ever heard a right-winger propose a ground rent for those that own the our land? They keep a bit quiet about that one, eh?

Smith proposed it for several reasons:

- The burden of the tax (paid by the landowner) falls upon everyone to the extent that they have wealth or income to pay for the use of the land
- Richer areas pay more tax than poor areas because the land value is higher
- You can’t expatriate land
- It is impossible to avoid a land tax
- The burden falls on those who can most afford it and have least earned it

Why should a billionaire pay a lower % tax than a cleaner simply because he can take income as capital gains or dividends (that’s ‘unearned income’ to you and me folks)? How can he pay less tax on it than is paid on hard-earned income by those much worshipped and abused ‘hard-working families’? This is an absolute scandal. Why is this not on the front pages every day as a national disgrace until the situation is reversed?
 
Way way too small of a percentage. I agree with you there. High income individuals need their federal taxes increased.

Tom, may I suggest you fuck off and read Jack London's "The Iron Heel", where his main protagonist explains, about 8 chapters in, why such a thing never happens?

London caught onto this 100 years ago, and yet your country is still full of people who think that there's some kind of fairness to the game, and that if only a little adjustment were made here and there, everything would be hunky-dory.
 
I'm not the one who seems to think that private capital is the same thing as the workforce in the private sector. That the interests of the latter and former are identical. That would be as ignorant of capitalism as you could possibly get.

Surely even the ignorant know that the only time "private capital" and "the workforce" inhabit the same ground is in a cooperative (I don't include incentivisation through share options as that's a device that actually nets business extra tax credits)? :)
 
In fact, in Tom's country there is a legal obligation on corporations to do right by the shareholders - that is generally narrowly interpreted to mean "maximise profits", and has been so interpreted for at least the last 30 years.

If Tom believes that corporate entities in the US do anything other than this, then he's living in a dream-world.

Because corporations in the UK are of course entirely public spirited.

It is foolish and counter productive to suggest that the nature of capital has anything to do with national characteristics.
 
Because corporations in the UK are of course entirely public spirited.

if anyone had actively suggested any such thing about the UK you might have a point. As it is, you're whistling up your own arsehole.

Again.

It is foolish and counter productive to suggest that the nature of capital has anything to do with national characteristics.

No-one has suggested any such thing. The thread is concerned with the US.
 
No it wouldn't. No one could afford to buy anything.

Now you're catching on.

Take that thought about no-one being able to afford anything a bit further: Is it not possible, indeed probable, that unionisation, in the public and the private sector, has played a role in stopping capital minimising it's costs at the expense of the workers' wages?

You see, I'm not interested in yours or Tom's bleatings about "fat-cat" public sector unions, I'm interested in seeing whether you can bring yourselves to acknowledge that unionisation per se is a social good.
 
The vineyard owner called to him his men and spake thusly 'Times are hard and while your vineyardly labours have kept me and thee well for many a year, a richer man has determined that our grapes fare poorly in the market. Hence there will be no more bonus grapes, no oil for your shaving and no overtime. Plus some of you are getting sacked as well'

Now- consider. That vineyard owner should be swinging from a noose made from his own fruits. But if instead the workers as a bloc tell the vineyard swine that he'll see no profits whatsoever if he doesn't take a small drop in order that the workers might still live. He'll get his when the ecahnameee is back in swing. So why shouldn't he- he'll mnever lose. Anti unionism in the current set up is no more than spite. Venal, why me! spite.

grow up
 
Tom, may I suggest you fuck off and read Jack London's "The Iron Heel", where his main protagonist explains, about 8 chapters in, why such a thing never happens?

London caught onto this 100 years ago, and yet your country is still full of people who think that there's some kind of fairness to the game, and that if only a little adjustment were made here and there, everything would be hunky-dory.


Correct me if I'm wrong but British millionaires pay a fair bit more than 35% federal income tax, do they not? I mean, that is the actual state of affairs in the USA thanks to George W. Bush & Co.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but British millionaires pay a fair bit more than 35% federal income tax, do they not? I mean, that is the actual state of affairs in the USA thanks to George W. Bush & Co.

Yes, British millionaires pay all their taxes correctly and on time, as do their corporations. Because we're all so gosh-darned deferential and polite towards authority.

:D
 
James Dyson pays more income tax than the other 53 UK-based billionaires combined. It seems they're not all on PAYE. :(
 
Now you're catching on.

Take that thought about no-one being able to afford anything a bit further: Is it not possible, indeed probable, that unionisation, in the public and the private sector, has played a role in stopping capital minimising it's costs at the expense of the workers' wages?

You see, I'm not interested in yours or Tom's bleatings about "fat-cat" public sector unions, I'm interested in seeing whether you can bring yourselves to acknowledge that unionisation per se is a social good.

As long as the unions base everything on seniority, you will be waiting a long time.



btw - this is what is happening with my husband's union right now - http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Union+concerned+about+Canada+transfers/4401159/story.html
 
If this attack on union rights is recession-based, can the anti-union people tell me what growth in the economy is required to re-instate union rights? and secondly why is freedom of assembly second to financial gain - I'd be interested to know which there other basic rights tehy consider are null and void if the capitalist economy starts to fail?
 
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