Why the Green Party is shit

[ViolentPanda]

Are Austria and Switzerland some kind of utopia?

For well-to-do white people they are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Austria is ace, like a more chilled guilt-free Germany.

Oh, they're definitely guilt-free, are the Austrians. None of them had anything to do with the fate of Austria's Jews! That was the work of those wicked Germans, and of course no Austrian worked for Greater Germany or the Nazi Party after the anschluss, no sirree!

As you may have gathered, I'm of the opinion that Austrians have engaged in 70 years of historical revisionism.

 

[Belushi]

Oh, they're definitely guilt-free, are the Austrians. None of them had anything to do with the fate of Austria's Jews! That was the work of those wicked Germans, and of course no Austrian worked for Greater Germany or the Nazi Party after the anschluss, no sirree!

As you may have gathered, I'm of the opinion that Austrians have engaged in 70 years of historical revisionism.

I have a Bavarian friend who lives in Vienna, she's furious with the Austrian's portrayal of themselves as victims

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have a Bavarian friend who lives in Vienna, she's furious with the Austrian's portrayal of themselves as victims

Simon Wiesenthal used to emphasise Austria's complicity and the fact that their victimhood was a sham at every opportunity. Supposedly he refused offers from rich US Jews to move his institute to the US or Israel for years, because he believed it was necessary to make Austrians face up to reality, rather than wallow in their victim fantasy.

 

[hot air baboon]

I heard it live this morning the single worse interview I have ever heard in my short 53 years - she is ill apparently.

....oh....my....frikkin....god.....that was unbelievably horrible to listen to.....

"....Ay'm sorry I 'ave a cold...."

"Oh yes the Australian Green...what's wrong with it...?"

She's not opinin'! 'She's passed on! This poli is no more! She has ceased to be! 'She's expired and gone to meet 'er maker! 'She's a stiff! Bereft of life, she rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'er to the perch she'd be pushing up the daisies! etc ...etc...

 

[chilango]

Shit as that obviously was, do people actually a) vote influenced by party leaders performance in media interviews? And b) vote Green expecting a coherent, yet utterly imaginary, Green administration?

 

[kenny g]

This is where parties like UKIP sticking to a very simple message they have not pretensions of being a ruling party so float of the over policy issues and bang on about two or three key themes. It's the trick the Greens should learn, it's not particularly honest but it works. Trying to be the LidDems isn't going to work.

Based on this mornings performances Natalie wouldn't be able to "bang on about" half a theme let alone two or three. She was completely and utterly hopeless on both Today, LBC and the subsequent press conference.

 

[butchersapron]

Brighton council infamously ranks 302nd out of 326 councils for recycling.

 

[butchersapron]

Shit as that obviously was, do people actually a) vote influenced by party leaders performance in media interviews? And b) vote Green expecting a coherent, yet utterly imaginary, Green administration?

I don't believe so.

And then we have Ukip and the Greens. Both, overwhelmingly, see their vote as being about sending a message, rather than requiring a coherent policy programme. For Ukip voters, the figures were 30% policy, 63% symbolic. For Green voters, it was 32% policy, 64% symbolic. (There weren’t enough responses for the SNP, or Plaid, to be analysed separately with any confidence). The net score – that is, the percentage selecting policy minus the percentage selecting the message – for each party is shown in the figure below.

This shouldn’t be taken to mean that policy doesn’t matter to Green or Ukip voters (or indeed, that it is all that most Conservatives care about). But most Green or Ukip voters clearly see the act of voting differently to the way most Conservatives voters (or indeed many Lib Dem and Labour voters) see it.

In particular, this might help explain why policy attacks on parties like the Greens or Ukip appear less effectual than they might normally be. Pointing out to a Green or Ukip supporter that the sums don’t add up, or that a policy won’t work, might not matter much if the policies are less important than just sending a message.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Won't have done them any good either though and it's still extremely amusing

 

[Kaka Tim]

Shit as that obviously was, do people actually a) vote influenced by party leaders performance in media interviews? And b) vote Green expecting a coherent, yet utterly imaginary, Green administration?

Wel, TBH, as im in a safe labour seat, i was thinking of voting green in the absence of any other vaguely leftwing alternative. Bennet's performance has definitely made that less likely.

 

[kebabking]

Shit as that obviously was, do people actually a) vote influenced by party leaders performance in media interviews? And b) vote Green expecting a coherent, yet utterly imaginary, Green administration?

assuming that the Greens are hoping to be this elections LibDems, hoovering up the votes of the malcontents who, while they may not be Green themselves, will happily use the Greens as a stick to beat the larger, more established parties with - then the Greens have to look like winners (within the protest party runners and riders..) to get those votes that might otherwise go to TUSC, or independants, or whatever.

looking like - and i cross-reference the 'great insults' thread - a bunch of retards trying to fuck a doorknob who can't get a simple sentence out, will have those malcontents thinking 'nah, they're a bunch of idiots, lets vote monster-raving loony party/spunking cock instead..'.

 

[bemused]

Won't have done them any good either though and it's still extremely amusing

I wasn't going to watch the TV debates, but if we can get the Greens and UKIP I'll get a curry and some beers to watch in front of the telly.

 

[J Ed]

I wasn't going to watch the TV debates, but if we can get the Greens and UKIP I'll get a curry and some beers to watch in front of the telly.

Better off doing something less depressing, if anything interesting happens then there will be highlights later on..

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

assuming that the Greens are hoping to be this elections LibDems, hoovering up the votes of the malcontents who, while they may not be Green themselves, will happily use the Greens as a stick to beat the larger, more established parties with - then the Greens have to look like winners (within the protest party runners and riders..) to get those votes that might otherwise go to TUSC, or independants, or whatever.

looking like - and i cross-reference the 'great insults' thread - a bunch of retards trying to fuck a doorknob who can't get a simple sentence out, will have those malcontents thinking 'nah, they're a bunch of idiots, lets vote monster-raving loony party/spunking cock instead..'.

Let's just be clear the number of votes TUSC will get is so small as to simply not matter one way or the other to anyone

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

She fucked it.
Can't help but think that when a male politico does the same the brouhaha is not half as great though.

Fuck the greens and politicos in general, but the bile directed at her has been fairly nasty. Fitting this all started with that nasty, racist, snobby, woman-hating, Islamaphobe, Nick Ferrari. Über cunt that he is.

 

[kebabking]

Let's just be clear the number of votes TUSC will get is so small as to simply not matter one way or the other to anyone

in electoral terms i agree, but if their votes were lumped onto the greens it might save the Greens a shitload of deposits...

the Greens need every single vote they can get in every single constituancy they can get them in, losing non-green protest votes because of percieved fuckwittery might, might, cost them a seat they otherwise could have won. not that i see them getting to 5 seats, but one MP is an ammusing oddity, 3 or 4 might start to become important.

 

[elbows]

Can't help but think that when a male politico does the same the brouhaha is not half as great though.

Depends on the situation. Including of course any backstory, e.g. Charles Kennedy where his terrible performances were of a nature that the press sensed they could push it all the way to revelations about his relationship with alcohol. Eventually. My memory is hazy of how long that story took to unwind, and what influenced the timing of particular revelations. I am not suggesting anything vaguely comparable is underfoot here, just giving a male example.

Fuck the greens and politicos in general, but the bile directed at her has been fairly nasty. Fitting this all started with that nasty, racist, snobby, woman-hating, Islamaphobe, Nick Ferrari. Über cunt that he is.

It started before then, at least twice.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I rest my case.

 

[elbows]

Well on a related note, I doubt we've utterly escaped accent-related prejudice either, especially when it comes to certain roles and what people are apparently looking for in leaders. Not that looking for leaders in general sounds entirely sane and rational in my book. And why are unconvincing liars more offensive than good ones?

 

[DaveCinzano]

And why are unconvincing liars more offensive than good ones?

Contemptuous lack of effort

 

[kebabking]

...And why are unconvincing liars more offensive than good ones?

at least convincing liars can do something convincingly?

 

[bluescreen]

The second part of your question is truly awful, the supposition being that people wouldn't like to live in a house that costs nothing (or close to nothing) to heat each winter. Wouldn't you like to live in a house with zero heating costs?

Your actual question, I am thinking of carbon / climate change more than general pollution concerns. My understanding is that it's very difficult to retro-fit a single skin house in such a way that would get it anywhere near being a passiv house. External insulation can get you close to a cavity wall house but even that's not great compared to what can be done, especially on terraced housing where the whole terrace would need to be done together - extremely difficult if there's not a single owner of that terrace - at least if you are rebuilding you can compulsory purchase order houses if needs be. There's a carbon/energy/pollution cost to retro-fitting the houses which you also need to factor in. That's a calculation to be made but over a long enough time frame (which may not be very long at all, I don't know if anyone has tried to calculate this or not) the new house will definitely use less energy and less carbon - just no idea how long it'd take for the relative extra carbon costs of rebuilding rather than renovating until you've made that back.

Not snarking here and you'll probably just say GIYF. I totally understand the need for passiv houses and if we are building new ones they are absolutely what we should build. But how does the carbon balance sheet look when we are demolishing houses that can cheaply be made sort-of OK vs new build? I'd like to see some figures on this, otherwise it can look like nice contracts.

 

[BigTom]

Not snarking here and you'll probably just say GIYF. I totally understand the need for passiv houses and if we are building new ones they are absolutely what we should build. But how does the carbon balance sheet look when we are demolishing houses that can cheaply be made sort-of OK vs new build? I'd like to see some figures on this, otherwise it can look like nice contracts.

I'm not aware of anyone having tried to work out these figures unfortunately.

It's not that cheap to do external insulation, my end terrace house was quoted at 18k a few years back, obviously a lot less than a new build but still significant.

 

[chilango]

Local Labour people here are unedifyingly turning their guns on the Greens. Sometimes counter-productively IMO.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Local Labour people here are unedifyingly turning their guns on the Greens. Sometimes counter-productively IMO.

Im not sure that's counter productive- the vast majority of people wouldn't think refusing to set a budget is a good idea

 

[Coolfonz]

Local Labour people here are unedifyingly turning their guns on the Greens. Sometimes counter-productively IMO.

Reading is going to be overrun by gherkins? Send them back to Gherklandia the salty vinegery dilly bastards.

 

[Coolfonz]

If you are coming from a radical/outsider position its even more important to be able to do this when you have the rare opportunity to state your case.

Double exactly. It's always about the dough. Why do Syriza and Podemos have economics academics up top? You have to play these cunts in their half of the field. Left Unity (et al) take note, do the fucking sums.

 

[chilango]

Im not sure that's counter productive- the vast majority of people wouldn't think refusing to set a budget is a good idea

Aye. But the "vast majority of people" aren't considering voting Green anyway.

This battle is for the votes of those considering the choice between a vaguely radical looking protest vote and a tactical anti-Tory vote for Labour.

All this kind of thing does is increase the Green's credibility as an anti-austerity protest vote.

So counter-productive in that sense.

Again, my feeling is that potential Green voters are (rightly) not considering what a "real life" Green administration would be like (and outside the handful of Green strongholds like Norwich and Brighton why should they?) but rather trying to figure out what message(s) their vote might contribute to. Same as with many potential UKIP voters.

People aren't stupid.

By and large they know they're not going to choose the government. But that they can contribute to one of the other narratives being played out in the election.

 

[Coolfonz]

Oh, they're definitely guilt-free, are the Austrians. None of them had anything to do with the fate of Austria's Jews! That was the work of those wicked Germans, and of course no Austrian worked for Greater Germany or the Nazi Party after the anschluss, no sirree!

As you may have gathered, I'm of the opinion that Austrians have engaged in 70 years of historical revisionism.

I've visited Vienna a good few times. Always thought we should have bombed its ass a bit more in WW2. ( ) Its like fash-statue heaven. Vikings with swords, Odin, men in chariots, sunwheels. Felt like any second they were going to round me up. Good techno scene mind.