Why is Buddhism so attractive to westerners?

[isitme]

I know a little bit about Buddhism, as in I know the basic philosophy and history of it, and although I'm not religious it sort of appeals to me. I have a lot of problems with the way Buddhism functions as an organised religion, but the actual philosophy I don't have any problem with at all, whereas Christianity, Islam, Sikhism etc despite being based on good ideas come across as a load of bollocks

I would never out and out reject it the way I would with other religions, especially Christianity and Islam.

I don't think this view is uncommon at all, look at the amount of people who support the Free Tibet campaign despite how shit it would have been to live in Tibet under the Dalai Lama compared with how it is under Chinese rule

Is this due to ignorance ofWesteners? Yoda? Or is Buddhism a more complete philosphy?

thoughts?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Well, why _wouldn't_ you out and out reject it like everything else?

 

[isitme]

Well, why _wouldn't_ you out and out reject it like everything else?

I think the main reason is that it doesn't seem as daft, since it doesn't use the idea of 'God' as some sort of person

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Well, it does contain an awful lot of stuff that's just as unproved and unprovable as anything in any other religion. It concentrates more on the individual's role in spiritual self-improvement than a specific god, that's true, which might appeal to Westerners of an individualistic self-improving bent.

But, you know, you could take lots of other religions in that way if you wanted to, or certainly in positive ways - we just have historical experience of the church system with the religions we're more familiar with, in Europe.

 

[isitme]

I just wonder if it's more than just our experience of the church system since countries where Buddhism is an important religion have also suffered due to theocracy.

That's an interesting point about the role of the individual. It's strange how in the far East it has combined with Confucianism to make a more anti individualistic society whereas it does seem to be more compatible with western ideas of individualism than our religions

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I just wonder if it's more than just our experience of the church system since countries where Buddhism is an important religion have also suffered due to theocracy.

Well, the social consequences of Buddhism are not necessarily something that people are very aware of over here - I know I'm not - and if you combine that with a naive view of how the claimed principles might actually express themselves or be exploited, it's not that weird that one might think that it's a "better" religion. We can always point to umpteen ways in which Christianity has been used to justify the most appalling shit even though if people actually followed the principles everything would be lovely. If a bit hippy.

I'm not saying it's stupid by the way, it's something that's always at the back of my mind, "buddhism well that's okay isn't it", but I do think it's the wrong conclusion to draw.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I know a little bit about Buddhism, as in I know the basic philosophy and history of it, and although I'm not religious it sort of appeals to me. I have a lot of problems with the way Buddhism functions as an organised religion, but the actual philosophy I don't have any problem with at all, whereas Christianity, Islam, Sikhism etc despite being based on good ideas come across as a load of bollocks

I would never out and out reject it the way I would with other religions, especially Christianity and Islam.

I don't think this view is uncommon at all, look at the amount of people who support the Free Tibet campaign despite how shit it would have been to live in Tibet under the Dalai Lama compared with how it is under Chinese rule

Is this due to ignorance ofWesteners? Yoda? Or is Buddhism a more complete philosphy?

thoughts?

[Re: bolded part.] Huh?

It's not just westerners, it's also people from the east. Lots of buddhists in those foreign countries. I guess good ideas have cross-market appeal.

 

[DotCommunist]

Eastern ideas and influences are always fascinating to us occidentals, I'm sure there's a cross over effect with western ideas fascinating the east.

Plus, buddhism just isn't as offensive as abrahmic religions

 

[Brainaddict]

I don't find it a very attractive philosophy meself. For starters I think it is deeply conservative both in theory and in practice.

I also think it is quite foolish to suggest that there is a state of 'enlightenment' that we should strive for. Enlightenments plural perhaps - but that's not what it offers (usually - I'm sure you can find teachers who differ). Usually it is offering one path to one enlightenment. Balls to that, I say.

Thirdly, when Westerners adopt it they almost all seem to get caught up in the contradiction of trying to eliminate their ego by focussing on themselves. This is a problem of Westerners as much as buddhism, but it does make most converts I've met annoyingly pleased with themselves, thus negating their claims to enlightenment

As for why the Westerners are attracted to it - it doesn't have a god (in theory - in practice in Asia it has at least one and often many) and it hasn't been attacked by a couple of hundred years of Western philosophy. If it had been, I don't think it would have fared much better than Christianity.

And now I'm off to the pub, so anyone who wants to argue will have to do so with my essence - for it is everywhere at all times, if only you could see it

 

[Cid]

Well, the social consequences of Buddhism are not necessarily something that people are very aware of over here - I know I'm not - and if you combine that with a naive view of how the claimed principles might actually express themselves or be exploited, it's not that weird that one might think that it's a "better" religion. We can always point to umpteen ways in which Christianity has been used to justify the most appalling shit even though if people actually followed the principles everything would be lovely. If a bit hippy.

I'm not saying it's stupid by the way, it's something that's always at the back of my mind, "buddhism well that's okay isn't it", but I do think it's the wrong conclusion to draw.

Well technically things would not be all that great in a fully Christianised society. Even if it the NT was ignored as a later corruption of Jesus' teachings you do come back to the fact that he was essentially a reactionary Jew, which means a lot of OT, prayers, fasting etc. I doubt it would be great for women and homosexuals as well.

 

[isitme]

I do think it's the wrong conclusion to draw.

I dunno if it's 'wrong', the central ideas do seem a lot less fictional (for want of a better word) than other religions

I wonder if Christianity or something would have the same appeal if it were as removed from our history.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I dunno if it's 'wrong', the central ideas do seem a lot less fictional (for want of a better word) than other religions

What, reincarnation?

 

[isitme]

[Re: bolded part.] Huh?

It's not just westerners, it's also people from the east. Lots of buddhists in those foreign countries. I guess good ideas have cross-market appeal.

If you read up on how nomads and peasants were treated by monks under a theocracy it was pretty shocking. Monks were almost like royalty in England a few hundred years ago, not quite as bad, but they didn't just sit and meditate the whole time. Buddhism as an organised religion can be just as corrupt and nasty as any other organised religion, especially the extreme tibetan version where people could get the lash for unneccesarily hurting plants and so on

 

[isitme]

What, reincarnation?

More the whole idea of life and death as being a circle rather than a straight line

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I don't find it a very attractive philosophy meself. For starters I think it is deeply conservative both in theory and in practice.

This is the major problem that I have with it too - I think it can easily be a philosophy of social control, "shut up and ignore powerful people fucking with you because life is suffering", much like "you will get your reward in heaven" etc. Not that it necessitates that but the theory lends itself to it.

 

[isitme]

Westerners adopt it they almost all seem to get caught up in the contradiction of trying to eliminate their ego by focussing on themselves.

That is very very true

 

[FridgeMagnet]

More the whole idea of life and death as being a circle rather than a straight line

Well, that's a fairly extreme claim. I don't see any more justification for it than that we are judged when we die and go to heaven or hell.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

If you read up on how nomads and peasants were treated by monks under a theocracy it was pretty shocking. Monks were almost like royalty in England a few hundred years ago, not quite as bad, but they didn't just sit and meditate the whole time. Buddhism as an organised religion can be just as corrupt and nasty as any other organised religion, especially the extreme tibetan version where people could get the lash for unneccesarily hurting plants and so on

Is that somehow worse than being shot by chinese troops as you try to flee the country through a mountain pass?

Or is it worse than having courts that hand down arbitrary death penalties for any number of offences?

 

[isitme]

Is that somehow worse than being shot by chinese troops as you try to flee the country through a mountain pass?

Or is it worse than having courts that hand down arbitrary death penalties for any number of offences?

It's pretty much the same to be honest

Day to day life in China isn't being shot at by the army and running away from execution vans, they do have a persecuted underclass tho, same as any capitalist country

 

[Cid]

What, reincarnation?

I think one of the problems with Buddhism is how tied up it has become in associated religions... Fundamentally Buddhist teaching should have you questioning anything you're told and reforming where necessary. It's incredible how such strong sects managed to form around a philosophy that basically says that's exactly what you shouldn't do.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

Individuals have differing spiritual propensities and inclinations, so the various schools of Buddhism, like those of every other world religion, have their esoteric and exoteric forms. The latter satisfy the need for moral guidance many people feel, and the former offer systems of practice for people whose inclinations lead them to investigate the nature of the universe, and their place in it, more deeply.

 

[isitme]

Well, that's a fairly extreme claim. I don't see any more justification for it than that we are judged when we die and go to heaven or hell.

It does fit in more with our experience of nature tho (decompose into soil and help plants grow etc)

 

[krtek a houby]

"It's incredible how such strong sects managed to form around a philosophy that basically says that's exactly what you shouldn't do."

That can be applied to most religions. Centuries of dogma and interpretations grow up around a core idea or message.

I like to take elements from many religions and philosophies, myself, rather than throw my lot in with one particular way of thinking/living.

 

[isitme]

I think one of the problems with Buddhism is how tied up it has become in associated religions... .

You could say the same for Christianity though surely?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It does fit in more with our experience of nature tho (decompose into soil and help plants grow etc)

Decomposing doesn't imply that I am on a spiritual journey across multiple lifetimes in search of nirvana.

 

[Cid]

That is very very true

I've always wondered why people seem to be attracted to Tibetan/Mahayana etc, which have grown extremely dogmatic... Ch'an/Zen is a far more open philosophy and reacted (originally, obviously since then Ch'an/Zen has had its own orders etc) very strongly against the use of scripture etc which is, as I said earlier, fundamentally against Buddhist teaching. Zazen is a very different type of meditation as well, the idea being not to think about anything... It's actually very rewarding and can lead to the kind of visions that must have had any ancient monks shouting from the temple walls in no time.

 

[Cid]

You could say the same for Christianity though surely?

Well not really, Jesus (if he existed) seems to have been a Jewish preacher pushing against what he viewed as a society that had deviated from Jewish teachings; hence the overturning of the tables etc. It is a religion very powerfully oriented around God, at its core it preaches love and understanding under God, if you deviate from God well, we may turn the other cheek, but you're going to end up in the darkest pits of hell.

 

[danny la rouge]

I it doesn't have a god

It doesn't have a creator God. It, as you've noted, often has gods. Sometimes loads.

 

[isitme]

I've always wondered why people seem to be attracted to Tibetan/Mahayana etc, which have grown extremely dogmatic... Ch'an/Zen is a far more open philosophy and reacted (originally, obviously since then Ch'an/Zen has had its own orders etc) very strongly against the use of scripture etc which is, as I said earlier, fundamentally against Buddhist teaching. Zazen is a very different type of meditation as well, the idea being not to think about anything... It's actually very rewarding and can lead to the kind of visions that must have had any ancient monks shouting from the temple walls in no time.

I always got the impression that Zen was the most popular philosophy with westeners.

A lot of people have taken up the cause of Free Tibet but that seems to be for quite different reasons than anything to do with a preference for one interpretation of Buddhist teaching over another

tbh Free Tibet people piss me off for a number of reasons but I won't go into that here....

 

[Crispy]

For me, it's attractive because it has its roots in the material world, and in emperical psychology. It's not "Do this and you'll be rewarded. Promise. No you won't find out till much later, so you'd better do your damndest not to fail me!" but "Make these changes to your behaviour and do these thinking exercises and your life will be better. Don't believe me? try it for yourself!"

Ultimately it's this focus on self-reliance which I think is attractive to westerners. Instead of filling a god-shaped hole, it just says "forget that, you alone have the power to change yourself". Unfortunately, the other main focuses of bhuddism - the rejection of material desire and universal charity and forgiveness are not quite so popular. If all you're doing is yoga and meditation, it'll make you feel good but wouldn't lead to a better world if everybody did it.