Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[stethoscope]

Oh, and permit me one more post - no one is fucking 'born a woman', Greer

They're born a baby.

 

[frogwoman]

Oh, and permit me one more post - no one is fucking 'born a woman', Greer

They're born a baby.

I do think that women's oppression has largely been sex based and to do with their role as mothers etc. My dad once said the only way to make men and women equal was to make it possible for men to have children.

I think that the proportion of trans people is so tiny they dont threaten the cause of that side of feminism in any way and a certain group of radical feminists dont do themselves any favours by talking about it in almost Jewish conspiracy like terms. For example I have read the book transsexual empire and while there are some valid points about the medicalisation and social construction of gender in it at the beginning she goes off on one about how the 'end game" of all this is a conspiracy by men to get rid of women and have only men with wombs.

 

[stethoscope]

That book does really does go down a conspiracy-like angle of it being the ultimate domination of women by the menz.

 

[frogwoman]

That book does really does go down a conspiracy-like angle of it being the ultimate domination of women by the menz.

Yeah it's very OPEN YOUR EYES SHEEPLE!! type stuff

 

[SpookyFrank]

The idea that Greer has been prevented from airing her views is laughable: she has access to far more broadcast media than most, and her views on this issue have been widely distributed.

This is an important point to remember whenever these kinds of situations come up. Even the act of trying to stop someone from having a platform at a certain place or event generally gets that person, and by extension their views, more attention anyway.

It's not about preventing someone from saying something, it's preventing them from saying it under your roof. It's people making a statement of their own, and often it will be people who generally have fewer opportunities to be heard than the person they're trying to ban iyswim.

You have the right to speak, you don't have a right to be listened to.

 

[frogwoman]

I do think theres a point about the medicalisation of childhood and young kids being prescribed hormones and labelled trans when they're not but this is far more of an issue in the US rather than the UK where anything transgender related (or anything else) is being totally butchered by the government. Plus theres the issue of doctors prescribing drugs rather than offering therapies or surgery because its cheaper. But its like that with everything rather than just transgender people. The restrictive gender role thing and the idea that people who act like the opposite sex are assumed to be that sex is an interesting point but again this is not a reason to hate transgender people and surely wider social trends are a far bigger cause of this.

I had a big argument the other day with a radical feminist about all this as she seemed to be suggesting some sort of 'jewish lobby' type situation and when challenged even came out with 'but some of my best friends are trans' bullshit. One day I want to write a Marxist critique of radical feminism but id have enough material for a whole book. The entire feminist movement (whatever wing of it) seems to have become coopted by rich women (cis or trans) and despite radical feminists saying that the transgender issue overshadows other stuff such as the pay gap and abortion etc etc by banging on about a stupid conspiracy theory it doesnt actually do anything to address anything to do with the majority of women and actually helps to make life worse for everyone.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yeah they'll medicate kids for anything in the US. If you shook that place, it would rattle

 

[toggle]

Also to say, this this this!

My issue with Jenner is that she doesn't particularly represent any trans people's live/experiences I know, and that she's republican. But, as you say, this is an award from a sleb gossip/fashion mag. That would be a more interesting critique from Greer - about trans women also having their 'value' and 'identity' as women reduced merely to their celebrity status, how they look, etc.

yep.

that the membrs of a group who have the most privilage are held up as spokespeople and representatives of that group.

Jenner has access to a quality of treatment, family support and a position that protects her from the worst abuses that transwomen face. She's not likely to end up poor, ostracised and being beaten/murdered for being a transwomen.

but she;s being held up as a representatiuve of women and specifically of transwomen by people who want to prove they are accepting, without having to actually gain a fucking clue

 

[stethoscope]

I do think theres a point about the medicalisation of childhood and young kids being prescribed hormones and labelled trans when they're not but this is far more of an issue in the US rather than the UK where anything transgender related (or anything else) is being totally butchered by the government.

Well, in the capitalist US of A, trans stuff is big business - all good providing you're middle class and got medical insurance, of course. If you're poor and trans in the States, you're more likely to end up a casualty.

I had a big argument the other day with a radical feminist about all this as she seemed to be suggesting some sort of 'jewish lobby' type situation and when challenged even came out with 'but some of my best friends are trans' bullshit. One day I want to write a Marxist critique of radical feminism but id have enough material for a whole book. The entire feminist movement (whatever wing of it) seems to have become coopted by rich women (cis or trans) and despite radical feminists saying that the transgender issue overshadows other stuff such as the pay gap and abortion etc etc by banging on about a stupid conspiracy theory it doesnt actually do anything to address anything to do with the majority of women and actually helps to make life worse for everyone.

You know, rad feminism does have some good critiques when it comes to deconstructing gender, the pathologising of children for showing any kind of 'deviance' from gendered behaviour, medicalization and surgeries, etc. It's just that I've found in my experience that there's invariably a fundamental lack of Marxist analysis at the heart of rad feminism, which is why the trans issue has become such an obsessive one for them, rather than many other very important issues facing women - and which needs capitalism/class to be addressed more critically.

 

[frogwoman]

Well, in the capitalist US of A, trans stuff is big business - all good providing you're middle class and got medical insurance, of course. If you're poor and trans in the States, you're more likely to end up a casualty.



You know, rad feminism does have some good critiques when it comes to deconstructing gender, the pathologising of children for showing any kind of 'deviance' from gendered behaviour, medicalization and surgeries, etc. It's just that I've found in my experience that there's invariably a fundamental lack of Marxist analysis at the heart of rad feminism, which is why the trans issue has become such an obsessive one for them, rather than many other very important issues facing women - and which needs capitalism/class to be addressed more critically.

I 100% agree.

And yes in america you end up getting stuff like trans people economically coerced into sex work or other dangerous, low paid jobs in order to pay for hormones / surgery etc.

A friend of mine who is trans said that because of the waiting times for drugs etc on the nhs she ends up having to buy most of it on the internet. Bit of a different situation than the conspiracy theories dreamt up by raymond etc.

I entirely agree thats what happens when you have no marxist analysis.

The thing is that even if you could eliminate gender roles completely some people would still change their gender. It might be massively reduced from now (or might be increased) but its not the sort of thing you can stop, people are always going to do it.

 

[toggle]

Anyway, meh. Have posted a length over the years about all this and not sure if I can motivate myself enough this morning to write much. On the 'blokey' comment, I've written about this stuff before and its problematic because it tends to be framed in regards to a trans woman who does not live up to hyper-femininity or stereotyped 'female' things as being criticised as being 'blokey' (trans woman = really a man, not trying hard enough to pass). And of course, when a trans woman does express any outward femininity, they are attacked for that too as reinforcing stereotyped gender roles. Can't fucking win really.

I look at the discussion from Jack Monroe. I know i've questioned a lot over the years and that incluces whether I'm properly a woman. settled that when i realised that female was not equal to feminine and i didn't have to live up to gender expectations to be a woman. But reading Jack;s story and i know it's different to mine. i don't have to properly understand it and i'm not sure I ever will, but i know it's different.

but transwomen are still judged far more than I will ever be by the standards of femininity that I reject. by how they look, how they dress. those who id as agender or gender neutral face a commentary that all that is not gendered is that of masculine origin, that wearing a dress is gendered, while wearing trousers isn't. but so much of this is based on assumptions so common that it takes constantly active awareness to even start to avoid reinforcing. and thats before you start fighting against those who believe it should be reinforced.

but a lot of the attack on transfolk just looks like picking an easy victim, i'm alright, you can stop picking on me cause look over there at the easier target. pisses me right off

 

[billy_bob]

The aspects I wanted to comment on was the free speech angle. I've seen it said that Greer may be wrong (I'd concur) but can say what she likes (I'd concur again) and therefore the petition to disinvite her from speaking at Cardyff University is an assault on freedom of speech (I'd disagree).

The idea that Greer has been prevented from airing her views is laughable: she has access to far more broadcast media than most, and her views on this issue have been widely distributed. I have seen the Kirsty Wark interview, and both the BBC and Guardian websites have given the interview prominence.

Good points and I think Greer's more or less made the 'I may be wrong but I'm entitled to my opinion' argument herself.

At the risk of invoking Godwin's, it's the same thing the far right try to get away with in objecting to 'no platform': I have a right to think what I like (yes, you do) and I should be allowed to express it within the law (yes, you should), therefore anyone who doesn't allow me to do so on any given occasion is the real fascist here (fuck off).

 

[danny la rouge]

It's not about preventing someone from saying something, it's preventing them from saying it under your roof. It's people making a statement of their own, and often it will be people who generally have fewer opportunities to be heard than the person they're trying to ban iyswim.

You have the right to speak, you don't have a right to be listened to.

The important point to pay attention to is who is doing to inviting/disinviting. Had it been a students' organisation (a women's group or an LGBT group, say) who'd invited her to hear what she has to say and the uni chancellor had stepped in to say she wasn't welcome, then I'd be opposed to that as an assault on free speech.

What we have here is not that.

 

[stethoscope]

The aspects I wanted to comment on was the free speech angle. I've seen it said that Greer may be wrong (I'd concur) but can say what she likes (I'd concur again) and therefore the petition to disinvite her from speaking at Cardyff University is an assault on freedom of speech (I'd disagree).

The idea that Greer has been prevented from airing her views is laughable: she has access to far more broadcast media than most, and her views on this issue have been widely distributed. I have seen the Kirsty Wark interview, and both the BBC and Guardian websites have given the interview prominence.

Quite - Bindel's cried this too after having written pages and pages in the Guardian and hosting BBC debates on the subject

 

[5t3IIa]

I think some people think transgenderism is a fetish, and that men co-opt womanhood for their own nefarious blokey purposes.

 

[billy_bob]

You know, rad feminism does have some good critiques when it comes to deconstructing gender, the pathologising of children for showing any kind of 'deviance' from gendered behaviour, medicalization and surgeries, etc. It's just that I've found in my experience that there's invariably a fundamental lack of Marxist analysis at the heart of rad feminism, which is why the trans issue has become such an obsessive one for them, rather than many other very important issues facing women - and which needs capitalism/class to be addressed more critically.

I'm quoting you not to disagree with anything you've said, just to observe that even labelling Greer's position here as 'radical feminism' dignifies it as more coherently arguable stance than I think it is. I find it reactionary and self-serving.

 

[toggle]

I do think that women's oppression has largely been sex based and to do with their role as mothers etc. My dad once said the only way to make men and women equal was to make it possible for men to have children.

I think that the proportion of trans people is so tiny they dont threaten the cause of that side of feminism in any way and a certain group of radical feminists dont do themselves any favours by talking about it in almost Jewish conspiracy like terms. For example I have read the book transsexual empire and while there are some valid points about the medicalisation and social construction of gender in it at the beginning she goes off on one about how the 'end game" of all this is a conspiracy by men to get rid of women and have only men with wombs.

oh ffs.

i reckon the exceptional as example thing going on with holding up jenner is a massive gift to terf agendas though. the more that she is held up, the more the debate moves away from the problems and dangers that she dosen't have to face and onto a place where they can set th diacussion. and presents an example they can use for the usurpation of what they see as actual women by a fake woman.*





*soz, but theres not many ways to discuss terf agendas without discussing some of their beliefs that I do not share in any way.

 

[Thora]

Any feminism that comes with an exclusionary definition of what a woman is is trash.

This is the bit I find particularly odd and aggressive about the whole debate tbh - that everyone has to accept this particular, niche world view about gender and what it is to be a women or else they're hateful terfs and should be hounded off the internet

 

[toggle]

I'm quoting you not to disagree with anything you've said, just to observe that even labelling Greer's position here as 'radical feminism' dignifies it as more coherently arguable stance than I think it is. I find it reactionary and self-serving.

you missed the resemblence to a weathercock

 

[toggle]

This is the bit I find particularly odd and aggressive about the whole debate tbh - that everyone has to accept this particular, niche world view about gender and what it is to be a women or else they're hateful terfs and should be hounded off the internet

it comes down to accepting that people have a right to define their own identity rather than have one imposed upon them. this is a fairly basic principle IMO, not something that should be labelled as 'niche'.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I think some people think transgenderism is a fetish, and that men co-opt womanhood for their own nefarious blokey purposes.

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to just for trolling purposes. I could think of easier ways to piss off women, if I were so inclined.

 

[5t3IIa]

I think some people think transgenderism is a fetish, and that men co-opt womanhood for their own nefarious blokey purposes.

I'll expand on this now I've had a swig of strong tea.

Co-opt a version of womanhood for reasons that a lot of people find extremely hard to understand. Like, literally can't get their heads around why anyone would do this. And if it's men doing it, and becoming accepted women and getting into the club - why would a man want to do this? It's shady.

 

[Thora]

it comes down to accepting that people have a right to define their own identity rather than have one imposed upon them. this is a fairly basic principle IMO, not something that should be labelled as 'niche'.

I presume you are only referring to gender and not ethnicity, class or anything else when you say that?

 

[5t3IIa]

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to just for trolling purposes. I could think of easier ways to piss off women, if I were so inclined.

How? What other way is better than being inside the tent and sitting down to piss and getting actually told all our plans for world domination into your ear, rather than trying and failing to work it out from the outside?

 

[frogwoman]

Well there are occasions where blokes have dressed up as women and gone into womens changing rooms etc, or have otherwise pretended to be transgender as some sort of pervy thing without going through any of the treatments, but i dont think this is the majority of trans people at all and from what i can gather in real life LGBT spaces these guys are treated with as much disdain as they would be anywhere else

 

[Thora]

it comes down to accepting that people have a right to define their own identity rather than have one imposed upon them. this is a fairly basic principle IMO, not something that should be labelled as 'niche'.

I do think gender, ethnicity, class etc as something you define yourself rather than a social construct which is imposed is a very niche worldview btw, although it might not seem that way on some parts of the Internet.

 

[stethoscope]

This is the bit I find particularly odd and aggressive about the whole debate tbh - that everyone has to accept this particular, niche world view about gender and what it is to be a women or else they're hateful terfs and should be hounded off the internet

Given that 'niche world view about gender' is imposed on trans people by cis society, and that trans people can be as diverse as anyone else, including their gender expression as cis people, I'm not sure why this point gets made tbh.

 

[5t3IIa]

Well there are occasions where blokes have dressed up as women and gone into womens changing rooms etc, or have otherwise pretended to be transgender as some sort of pervy thing without going through any of the treatments, but i dont think this is the majority of trans people at all and from what i can gather in real life LGBT spaces these guys are treated with as much disdain as they would be anywhere else

Not the reality of trans people but the reality of what a lot of people who don't truly get it think.

 

[Thora]

Given that 'niche world view about gender' is invariably imposed on trans people by cis society, and that trans people can be as diverse as anyone else, including their gender expression as cis people, I'm not sure why this point gets made tbh.

I don't follow you.

 

[frogwoman]

Given that 'niche world view about gender' is imposed on trans people by cis society, and that trans people can be as diverse as anyone else, including their gender expression as cis people, I'm not sure why this point gets made tbh.

A mate of mine was complaining that if the wore a skirt and high heels etc she would get told that she was 'appropriating womanhood' but the same people would jump on her wearing jeans etc as proof she was actually a bloke.