Why are Urban liberal leftists/@s so racist/prejudiced against non immigrants??

[durruti02]

There is an nasty current that runs thru many liberal leftist/@ posts on urban that says

if it wasn't for immigrants this country/unions would be rubbish .. it is an arguement i have heard many times before from middle class people and nieve leftists,

that the w/c are reactionary/conservative/backward and immigration has made everything better

( and as a cultural add on .. that if it was not for immigration everthing would be really boring! )

kyser actually suggested that until everyone has emigrated to everywhere else only then can we have revolution!!

this is reactionary nonsense .. indeed it is stalinism/stalinist .. that certain peoples .. especially argicultural are backward and that we need to all end up in one massive industrial hell before we will forment revolution ..

above all it is a racialistion of politics .. class is what matters .. but the left have fallen almost hook line and sinker for the idea that the white ( and british black) w/c are reactionary .. (no wonder people vote bnp) .. instead of backing the w/c against the state and its work in support of capital

 

[Crispy]

Because my dad told me they can't swim, innit?

 

[bluestreak]

i guess because we're all a bunch of self-loathing middle class wankers who piss on the great achievements of this fine nation and her beautiful traditions.

either that, or we all know british cooking is shite and without immigrants we're going to have to eat badly cooked meat and three forever.

's your choice really, either is good for me.

 

[tbaldwin]

think it may have something to do with Class....The Class of people who gave us the slave trade also gave us a lot of Modern Anti Racism....... Not suprising then that people come out with stuff about "Immigrants enriching our culture"

 

[FridgeMagnet]

For me, it's really just that they can't make a decent cappuccino.

 

[treelover]

Actually the great Spike Lee would seem to agree with Durutti about the middle class lefts obsession with race: in his new film about Katrina, he puts the spotlight firmly on class not on ethnicity for the disasters that rained upon the urban poor there.

Spike Lee turns cameras on New Orleans

· Hurricane Katrina film gets world premiere
· Hailed as most essential work of director's career

Oliver Burkeman in New York
Thursday August 17, 2006
The Guardian

Calling the movie "arguably the most essential work of [Lee's] 20-year career", Newsweek said audiences might be surprised that the director, who made his name with a series of feature films addressing racial politics, "views the tragedy as a national betrayal rooted in class, not skin colour. To him, what the victimised share most is that they had very little to begin with and were left with nothing."

http://film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1851743,00.html

 

[TeeJay]

I am an immigrant. I am in favour of free movement of people wherever possible. I think that post-war immigration has been on balance a good for the UK.

How exactly am I "racist" or "prejudiced"?

 

[TonkaToy]

For me, it's really just that they can't make a decent cappuccino.

** Reports FridgeMagnet to his employer.

I don't care if it's fucking satire!

 

[treelover]

i think there is a lot of truth in that, we are all too 'hideously white' for middle class liberals.

that the w/c are reactionary/conservative/backward and immigration has made everything better

 

[TeeJay]

i think there is a lot of truth in that, we are all too 'hideously white' for middle class liberals.

How do you know who is "white" - how can you say "we are all ... white"?

Do working class liberals not exist?

 

[treelover]

anyway, just like to say hello to new P/Per Ciao Bella, God knows we need them, unless they are Swappies!

 

[tbaldwin]

I am an immigrant. I am in favour of free movement of people wherever possible. I think that post-war immigration has been on balance a good for the UK.

How exactly am I "racist" or "prejudiced"?

1 So?
2 You tell us?

Mind you i do know that people who argue that on balance that its been good for the UK are usually a bit too nationalist for my liking.......

 

[TeeJay]

1 So?
2 You tell us?

Mind you i do know that people who argue that on balance that its been good for the UK are usually a bit too nationalist for my liking.......

It has been a good thing for the UK, a good thing for the vast majority of the people choosing to immigrate (either permanently or temporarily) and to a very large extent it has benefitted their original countries as well, although there have been some issues. These issues are best addressed directly - for example by assisting local health systems in these countries, or by having systems whereby a country can demand a certain number of years work from anyone who they pay for the training of (either that or the person can 'buy out' their contract if they happen to go elsewhere to work - the money can the go into training more people).

I don't think I am racist or prejudiced - but it seems that durruti02 is saying that I am, so I am asking "why" or "how". It is a fair question and I can't answer it myself because I am not making the claim, am I?

 

[In Bloom]

durruti02:

Are you ever going to answer the points raised about immigration controls being innefective, and only worsening the social status of immigrants, therefore allowing bosses to use immigrants as a pool of flexible labour which can be played off against the rest of the working class?

Rather than characterising anybody and everybody who disagrees with you as thinking that white, working class people are inherently racist and reactionary (there's a lot of it about, and it does piss me off no end, but its nowhere near as ubiquitous as you make out), why not actually adress some of the arguments put forward.

Just a thought.

 

[tbaldwin]

It has been a good thing for the UK,

This National Interest arguement is really shite Teejay...Migration is not such good news for people competing for jobs and housing.....As it is for people who own properties and businesses that make money out of migrants.......

If you dont understand that yet there isnt a lot of hope for you........The truth though Teejay is you do understand it but just cant admit it.

 

[oaktree]

There is an nasty current that runs thru many liberal leftist/@ posts on urban that says

if it wasn't for immigrants this country/unions would be rubbish .. it is an arguement i have heard many times before from middle class people and nieve leftists,

that the w/c are reactionary/conservative/backward and immigration has made everything better

Yes, it's as if the middle class left can't accept that Britain existed for thousands of years before the mass immigration from outside Europe that occurred during the 20th century.

Surely people should be asking why the birth rate is so low in this country that we have to rely on immigrants to make up the numbers. Also, why are we having to recruit Indian doctors or Filipino nurses to work in the NHS. You can't tell me that there aren't enough people in this country who want to earn good money in these jobs?

To me, it's the fault of 1980's neo-liberalism which destroyed the British working class and ran the education and Nhs into the ground. New Labour have dutifully followed the Tories neo-liberal agenda.

The liberal left jump on the bandwagon of any so-called "progressive" idea, even when it is clearly an instrument of the ruling class to destroy the working class.

These middle class groups feel a sense of superiority over the "lumpen-scum" white working class, and yet feel they are revolutionary class warriors!!!

During the Cold War, an astute American observer commented that "racism here helps Communism everywhere" because it fans the flames of radical elements within capitalism who start to see a common cause with the then other superpower of the Eastern bloc. This gave birth to the bourgeois anti-racism movement, which groups like UAF are little better than.

 

[The Sick Anchor]

prejudice against the white working class is the last acceptable prejudice in today's society and the liberals appear to lap it up

would they chastise a black skinned male in an england shirt with a flag attached to their car

 

[bluestreak]

durruti02:

Are you ever going to answer the points raised about immigration controls being innefective, and only worsening the social status of immigrants, therefore allowing bosses to use immigrants as a pool of flexible labour which can be played off against the rest of the working class?

Rather than characterising anybody and everybody who disagrees with you as thinking that white, working class people are inherently racist and reactionary (there's a lot of it about, and it does piss me off no end, but its nowhere near as ubiquitous as you make out), why not actually adress some of the arguments put forward.

Just a thought.

RACI
ALIST!

BIN BAN CASTRATIONS LIBERWAL!

 

[bluestreak]

prejudice against the white working class is the last acceptable prejudice in today's society and the liberals appear to lap it up

would they chastise a black skinned male in an england shirt with a flag attached to their car

actually, i think they would. then they'd wonder where he'd nicked the car from, but wouldn't call the police cos the police might think they were racist, and fuck it, they wouldn't show up anyway.

 

[yield]

Yes, it's as if the middle class left can't accept that Britain existed for thousands of years before the mass immigration from outside Europe that occurred during the 20th century.

Thousands of years? What about the Vikings, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Normans, Huguenots...
Yes the 20th Century has seen the vast movement of people but that is a result of reliable affordable transportation. And the availablity of knowledge about other places.

Surely people should be asking why the birth rate is so low in this country that we have to rely on immigrants to make up the numbers. Also, why are we having to recruit Indian doctors or Filipino nurses to work in the NHS. You can't tell me that there aren't enough people in this country who want to earn good money in these jobs?

What about education for women? The widespread use of contraceptives?

I CAN tell you there are people who don't want to be nurses.

To me, it's the fault of 1980's neo-liberalism which destroyed the British working class and ran the education and Nhs into the ground. New Labour have dutifully followed the Tories neo-liberal agenda.

I couldn't agree with you more. It was the Cold War. The USA played the UK and wanted some lucrative contracts on the North Sea fields.

These middle class groups feel a sense of superiority over the "lumpen-scum" white working class, and yet feel they are revolutionary class warriors!!!

Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were middle class.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

*raises eyebrow*

 

[Firky]

actually, i think they would. then they'd wonder where he'd nicked the car from, but wouldn't call the police cos the police might think they were racist, and fuck it, they wouldn't show up anyway.

 

[Barking_Mad]

education.

 

[TonkaToy]

*raises eyebrow*

 

[oaktree]

Thousands of years? What about the Vikings, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Normans, Huguenots...
Yes the 20th Century has seen the vast movement of people but that is a result of reliable affordable transportation. And the availablity of knowledge about other places.


What about education for women? The widespread use of contraceptives?

I CAN tell you there are people who don't want to be nurses.


I couldn't agree with you more. It was the Cold War. The USA played the UK and wanted some lucrative contracts on the North Sea fields.


Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were middle class.

You will note I mentioned the movement of labour into the Uk from outside Europe during the 20th century. The groups you quote were all white Christian Europeans, whom I, and possibly you, are descended from. Clearly, Europeans will integrate much more easily than different religions or darker skinned people.

I knew many people of Polish descent who were indistinguishable from the white British where I grew up - the only difference was the name.

Muslims in particular are a problem because the whole culture and outlook is different, as say, even compared with black Africans or Afro-Carribeans.

Your second comment is blatantly sexist, many men aspire to be nurses and are proud of the fact. Some years ago it was decided that the label 'male nurse' should be dropped for this reason.

Yes, Marx and Engels were middle class, but so were Kropotkin and Bakunin!

 

[yield]

You will note I mentioned the movement of labour into the Uk from outside Europe during the 20th century. The groups you quote were all white Christian Europeans, whom I, and possibly you, are descended from. Clearly, Europeans will integrate much more easily than different religions or darker skinned people.

Yes, you did say Europe.
I don't understand where you think Europe ends and Asia/Africa begins? Europe has always seemed like a Political rather than Geographical construct. Surely it's Eurasia?
There has been a constant flow of people although not in the numbers that we've seen in the last century. Any attempt at some sort of European biological purity is highly suspect. For example is Egyptian culture European or African? What about Turks, Albanians, Spaniards, Greeks do they all fit your picture of Europeans?
And this idea of integration? What are they integrating into? Culture or tradition isn't this fixed static thing.

I knew many people of Polish descent who were indistinguishable from the white British where I grew up - the only difference was the name.

I could say the same thing about many of the Russians I've met but they live(d) in Asia...

Muslims in particular are a problem because the whole culture and outlook is different, as say, even compared with black Africans or Afro-Carribeans.

Where do I start? I'm not afraid of people being different to me. Are you?
I find it telling that the 7/7 bombers came from Luton and Yorkshire (iirc) in areas of high unemployment and few prospects. I think it's more a question of socio-economics than religion.
(There are other threads devoted to this.)

Your second comment is blatantly sexist, many men aspire to be nurses and are proud of the fact. Some years ago it was decided that the label 'male nurse' should be dropped for this reason.

No I never said that nurses are all female. That part of my response was to the reduction in birthrate. Yes, there are male nurses. I still say some people do not want to be nurses.

Yes, Marx and Engels were middle class, but so were Kropotkin and Bakunin!

Kropotkin's father was a Prince.

 

[TeeJay]

"Vikings, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Normans, Huguenots"

...The groups you quote were all white Christian Europeans...

No they weren't. The first four mentioned were pagans, not christians, when they invaded/settled in the british isles. I don't know how well they "integrated" at first either - seeing as a lot of blood was shed.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

John Grean banned yet again.

 

[belboid]

There is an nasty current that runs thru many liberal leftist/@ posts on urban that says
blah blah blah

I've just worked it out who it is you remind me of durutti!

Frank fucking Chapple & Eric Hammond.

 

[Wilf]

On "the forgotten/abandoned working class thesis":

The problem is it's a term/argument used by very different people and for very different reasons. At one extreme, it's at the core of racist, BNP thinking - and used purely to support racist campaigns: 'look at them, getting your stuff, while the establishment does nothing'

At the other extreme, there is a valid argument about the nature of town hall liberalism and the form that the politics of multiculturalism over the last 20 years. Rather than ethnicity being the basis for an anti-racist politics, its drifted into a highly managed and mangerialised professional discourse. It becomes an allocation system in which, if you can establish your 'identity', you get a slice of the pie. Very, very different from the kind of anti-racist politics that could have been rooted in a class politics and even an anti-capitalism. It's also an allocation system in which the white working class have little purchase. Its almost impossible to start asking for houses/community centres/cultural provision if you are not regarded by those in power as having a valid cultural identity. All of this somehow gets worse when wrapped up with other socioligical discourses around postindustrialism and even the 'whats the use of men' argument - the notion that the working class is losing its place/purpose in the world. In turn, its a class that increasingly sees itself represented in the media only as a problem or a dinosaur (chavs, pregnanat teens, asbo-ees).

With all that background its not surprising that there's been something of a backlash (and by that i don't mean a backlash against 'immigrants' - I mean the backlash against institutionalised forms of multiculturalism and liberalism) - on these boards and elsewhere. Problem (obviously) is one of steering any kind of class politics - which says some of the above - away from racism and zero sum game politcs. If it emphasises class politics, its got to also say that black workers are part of that class.

Of course what's tricky is that both racist 'pro-working class' positons and IWCA/anarcho working class politics have in mind somehing of the same phenomena - the multiculturalism industry and liberal/lefty commentators [and by that i'm not remotely suggesting that the iwca is 'like' the bnp - just that they come at a similar phenomena - but from a profoundly different position]. To me, that means people have to tread pretty carefully when doing this kind of politics - and make clear who the real enemy is.