wht were the nazi's right wing? and not left wing?

[yield]

As Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn showed in his book, "Leftism" (1974 and 1990), Hitler and all his top lieutenants were hard-core socialists who hated everything about the old Europe, including small states, the monarchs, the Church, the landed aristocracy, peace, and the free economy of the 19th century.

Hardly.

Why was Nazi Germany called the Third Reich? They saw themselves as a continuation of the Holy Roman Empire. And they sought the support, although some would say silence, of Pope Pius XII.

They talked constantly of a proletarian revolution that would destroy the bourgeois class.

Did they? This has already been covered in this thread and the other. No attempt was made to destroy, what the Nazis identified as, the German Bourgeoisie. They used the camps as a source of slave labour not solely as places of extermination.

Furthermore, as Robert Proctor showed in "Racial Hygiene: Medicine Under the Nazis" (1988), the Nazis were health fanatics who banned cigarette smoking, promoted vegetarianism and organic gardening, engaged in abortion and euthanasia, frowned on all capitalist excess, and even promoted animal rights. They were environmentalists who locked up land from development to promote paganism.

Because lefties are green, non-smoking, animal-loving, vegetarian eugenicists?

The Nazi government introduced socialized medicine and government-mandated vacations at government spas, imposed handgun control, and expanded unemployment "insurance" and Social Security. The Nazis opposed the traditional calendar and wanted to replace it with one centered on race and nation rather than faith and family.

pbman - Are you seriously suggesting that Otto von Bismarck was left-wing?

He introduced Old Age Pensions, and Health, Accident and Disability Insurance in late Nineteenth Century Prussia. All in an effort to undermine the popularity of the Social Democrats.

A new study of Nazi make-work programs of the 1930s by Dan P. Silverman ("Hitler's Economy," 1998) shows that Hitler's government pursued a program of "public investment" even more far reaching than the U.S. New Deal.

Now that's saying FDR was like Hitler! Laugh out loud.

I'd not heard of Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn before. Sounds a bit like a cross between Carl Schmitt and G.K. Chesterton.

 

[Groucho]

They nationalised big buisness?
They supported strikes?

They nationalised some businesses under state control. They opposed strikes - the Nazi street fighters began as violent strike breakers.

 

[Blagsta]

Like i said, i already debated it, and am not going to bother repeating it for you............

FNG



http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=20281

You're such a fuckwit!

 

[Mooncat]

Does that mean that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic?

When is Kim jong-il holding elections?

Have you got anything to say about this Pbman?

 

[durruti02]

They nationalised some businesses under state control. They opposed strikes - the Nazi street fighters began as violent strike breakers.

groucho see my post above .. they would have never got power if they had opposed strikes as you suggest .. they supported many strikes and as i point out worked actually with the KPD on occassion in disputes ..

( trotsky opposed this .. but from the sidelines .. the kpd had dozens of supportters killed in fights with the nazis yet were condemned for working along side them when they were trying to undermine them)

 

[durruti02]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=20281

oh dear

 

[Groucho]

groucho see my post above .. they would have never got power if they had opposed strikes as you suggest .. they supported many strikes and as i point out worked actually with the KPD on occassion in disputes ..

( trotsky opposed this .. but from the sidelines .. the kpd had dozens of supportters killed in fights with the nazis yet were condemned for working along side them when they were trying to undermine them)

I saw your post. The Nazis did not recruit on the basis of appealing to organised workers and trade unionists for the most part. In 1933 just 3% of their vote came from former KPD voters. They were strike breakers. Where they picked up working class support, rather than the middle class and ex soldiers principally the officer class who formed the backbone of their party, it was from among the ranks of the unemployed. The SA stormtroopers cut their teeth by forming a strike breaking force.

Trotsky rightly condemned the KPD for working alongside the Nazis. An example being the joint KPD/Nazi attack on the SDP dominated transport workers union conference. The KPD actually contacted the Nazis to stage a joint assault, the KPD leadership seeing the Social Democrats as their main enemy. And yes at the same time many KPD activists were resolutely anti-fascist.

 

[october_lost]

Groucho's post was more in line with my thinking.

Furthermore, as Robert Proctor showed in "Racial Hygiene: Medicine Under the Nazis" (1988), the Nazis were health fanatics who banned cigarette smoking, promoted vegetarianism and organic gardening, engaged in abortion and euthanasia, frowned on all capitalist excess, and even promoted animal rights. They were environmentalists who locked up land from development to promote paganism.

The Nazi government introduced socialized medicine and government-mandated vacations at government spas, imposed handgun control, and expanded unemployment "insurance" and Social Security. The Nazis opposed the traditional calendar and wanted to replace it with one centered on race and nation rather than faith and family.

This is all balls.

• They didnt promote animal rights(!) hunting was introduced into Germany replicating the English aristocracy. The grounds for saying they promoted vegetarianism are very spurrious indeed.

• Euthanasia is not and never has been a traditional leftist policy and I think it never made an appearance in USSR.

• They did not promote paganism, but a christianity centred on race and nation (ein volk, ein reich, und ein furhrer) - mein kampf came to replace the bible in churches.

• And handgun control is typical among all totalitarian states, one could also say the same for social secruity.

 

[G. Fieendish]

Re: Enthuasia during the Nazi era
The core tenets mentioned in Robert Proctor's work were U.S imports, although the Nazi's used Adolf Jost's 1895 work with regards to their Eugenics/"Racial Hygene" policy...
(Basically, the Eugenic movement in the U.S, which involved the forced & in most cases, involantary sterilisation of the mentally ill, was often used as a excuse for Social Engineering/Ethnic Clensing, by a threatened middle class educated elite & targeted the poor or ethnic minorities....
The Nazi T4 Aktion programme, which involved the involantry euthanasia of mentally ill people, was regarded as a logical extension of U.S practice at the time....
The U.S experience was used as a "softener" by the Nazi's, in propoganda at the time, to prepare the German people for T4, & by extension, the Holocaust....
Ironically, one of the 2 Doctors that proposed the eugenic legislation in the U.S was himself involantry sterilised, after he contracted leprosy, & was committed....).

 

[tangerinedream]

Isn't there evidence to suggest that Ernst Rohm was killed because he personally sympathised with the trade unionists who questioned the Nazi's relationship with business people who traded money in return for Nazi protection of their interests? That Rohm was killed for being (crudely speaking) a socialist whose belief that Hitler would create a revolutionary state became too dangerous because of his control over the SA?

 

[butchersapron]

Isn't there evidence to suggest that Ernst Rohm was killed because he personally sympathised with the trade unionists who questioned the Nazi's relationship with business people who traded money in return for Nazi protection of their interests? That Rohm was killed for being (crudely speaking) a socialist whose belief that Hitler would create a revolutionary state became too dangerous because of his control over the SA?

It's partly true and partly strasserite myth to my mind, but what is true is the idea that within the nazi party there were people who hated the big industrialists and finance capital and who belive that Hitler did too. Thye anted the 2nd revolution after the Nazias had gained power - they were moved off pretty quickly and easily post 34, but Hitler had made sure they had nowhere left to go and the the leaders killed. Otto Strasser had already been expelled in 1930 though. Their time had been and gone, beyond episodic things.

 

[nino_savatte]

What a shite thread and it comes as no surprise to me that the usual suspects are here. This is an ongoing smear perpetrated by the right to close down any discourse that it doesn't like that comes from the 'left'.

 

[butchersapron]

If you don't like it don't read it nino. Don't come on here demanding that others don't talk about things that you don't want to. If anything that's the real attempt to close down debate.

As it goes there's an interesting discussion historical about the internal elements of the NSDAP in the period just before and coming to power getting going, about which sectors of society they appealled to and the methods they employed in those attempts.

 

[nino_savatte]

Do fuck off, you pompous twat. Anyone would think that you're the fount of all political knowledge. But the simple truth is that you're nothing but a bully. In fact, you're quite a dab hand at closing down debate that you don't like, especially if it involves your beloved IWCA.

 

[butchersapron]

Nino, go and have a coffee or something.

 

[nino_savatte]

Butchers, go and soak your head or something...preferably in a bucket of vinegar. If you can't find vinegar, use gin.

 

[mk12]

This is a good thread, very interesting.

 

[durruti02]

I saw your post. The Nazis did not recruit on the basis of appealing to organised workers and trade unionists for the most part. In 1933 just 3% of their vote came from former KPD voters. They were strike breakers. Where they picked up working class support, rather than the middle class and ex soldiers principally the officer class who formed the backbone of their party, it was from among the ranks of the unemployed. The SA stormtroopers cut their teeth by forming a strike breaking force.

Trotsky rightly condemned the KPD for working alongside the Nazis. An example being the joint KPD/Nazi attack on the SDP dominated transport workers union conference. The KPD actually contacted the Nazis to stage a joint assault, the KPD leadership seeing the Social Democrats as their main enemy. And yes at the same time many KPD activists were resolutely anti-fascist.

imho you are contradicting yourself groucho by noting they worked with teh kpd then say they were simply strike breakers .. look no one is saying that the nspad were real socialists .. but they did not recruit 250,000 people into their union and get the support of millions of w/c people by simply strike breaking .. it is this seemingly similar attempt nowadays to see facists (bnp) as simply nazis/evil/devils/strikebreakers/racists etc that is dangerous .. THEY are MORE dangerous more complx than that .. we need to be more savvy

hny by the way!

 

[nino_savatte]

This is a good thread, very interesting.

What insightful commentary...pithy in the extreme.

 

[october_lost]

imho you are contradicting yourself groucho by noting they worked with teh kpd then say they were simply strike breakers .. look no one is saying that the nspad were real socialists .. but they did not recruit 250,000 people into their union and get the support of millions of w/c people by simply strike breaking .. it is this seemingly similar attempt nowadays to see facists (bnp) as simply nazis/evil/devils/strikebreakers/racists etc that is dangerous .. THEY are MORE dangerous more complx than that .. we need to be more savvy

hny by the way!

There is no reason why the NSDAP didnt play both roles, it would be pure oppurtunism on their part.

 

[mk12]

What insightful commentary...pithy in the extreme.

Oh the irony:

"Butchers, go and soak your head or something...preferably in a bucket of vinegar. If you can't find vinegar, use gin."

 

[Demosthenes]

This seems like a bit of a pointless argument to me.

Not that I've never found it irritating to hear the nazis described as socialists or left-wing.

But, everyone knows really that to think that political orientation varies in only one dimension is absurdly simplistic, - and really leftwing and right wing aren't particularly meaningful terms, as - chances are people of different political persuasions are going to have trouble agreeing what they mean.

 

[nino_savatte]

Oh the irony:

"Butchers, go and soak your head or something...preferably in a bucket of vinegar. If you can't find vinegar, use gin."

Whereas you lack the wit or the brainpower to respond with an intelligent reply or one that shows you have a sense of humour.

So, you have no point to make...why am I not surprised?

 

[mk12]

Why don't you stay on topic (ever?). This is an interesting thread and I might look into that book durruti02 posted from. Although its £40 on amazon!

I always wonder why the anti-capitalist workers in the Nazi party hated the SPD/KPD so much?

 

[nino_savatte]

Well, the only person who thinks that I don't "stay on topic" is you but then I suspect that you have serious difficulty reading those texts that aren't posted by your mates. Also, if shitty wee smear artists, like you, didn't pop up every five seconds, making snide comments and making no contribution (as you have done), threads wouldn't get derailed. Though it's much easier to blame others for your faults - isn't it? It's even better to scapegoat someone and engage in a smear campaign than actually engage with the subject matter - isn't it? After all, that's the MATB way of dong things.

 

[butchersapron]

Why don't you stay on topic (ever?). This is an interesting thread and I might look into that book durruti02 posted from. Although its £40 on amazon!

I always wonder why the anti-capitalist workers in the Nazi party hated the SPD/KPD so much?

Did they hate them especially? More so than any other enemies? A reading of the national bolsheviks and their evolution post 1921 might be useful here. And the SPD and KPD hated each other the most!

And nino, if you have nothing to say, off the thread please.

 

[nino_savatte]

butchersapron
This message is hidden because butchersapron is on your ignore list.

If you're saying what I think you're saying, you're wasting your time. Not only that, you're showing yourself up for the bullying shite that you are.

Just in case anyone is in any doubt, this subject has been covered before. Pbman began a thread on this topic a couple of years ago. As I said earlier on this very thread, this linking of Nazism to socialism is done for one reason only: to smear anyone on the left (no wonder the idea appeals so much to particular supporters of the IWCA on Urban). But then we have posters here on this very thread who make dark comments about the 'left' and spend much of their time engaging in pointless sectarian bickering. Is it any wonder the right triumph when there are so many fifth columnists masquerading as leftists (though they deny it)?

 

[butchersapron]

You've gotta laugh

Is it any wonder the right triumph when there are so many fifth columnists masquerading as leftists (though they deny it)?

Oh it gets better, i'm a secret fash too!

And just for the record, it was *me* who mentioned the other thread and linked to it (post #3) and it wasn't pbman who started it, it was in bloom.

 

[october_lost]

Done and dusted then....

 

[nino_savatte]

The only people who support such ideas are this lot
http://www.theatlasphere.com/metablog/415.php
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/young5.html

This is particularly laughable.

The Nazis were Marxists, no matter what our tainted academia and corrupt media wishes us to believe
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/the_nazis_were_maxists.html

You're in great company.