wht were the nazi's right wing? and not left wing?
- Thread starter likesfish
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GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
er they were technically adopting the idea of national socialism which is what throws people i think they hear the socailism and assume pinko. commie. etc.
they miss the national bit which reffers to nationalism the superioirty or ideal of a nation being better than anythign else. a concept which of course is right wing.
so in effect the answers in the name a right wing organiseation who beleived in national idenity and superiority via facistic principals (also right wing) to bring about a socialist ideal for those ordained nationals only. not for a wider more usually accepted defintition form of all inclusive of socialism.
I'm sure butchers or someone more versed will explain it better in a bit.
basically thoguh anyoen who say's this is usually obsessing over the socialist bit and ignoring the nationalistic part which informs it...
they miss the national bit which reffers to nationalism the superioirty or ideal of a nation being better than anythign else. a concept which of course is right wing.
so in effect the answers in the name a right wing organiseation who beleived in national idenity and superiority via facistic principals (also right wing) to bring about a socialist ideal for those ordained nationals only. not for a wider more usually accepted defintition form of all inclusive of socialism.
I'm sure butchers or someone more versed will explain it better in a bit.
basically thoguh anyoen who say's this is usually obsessing over the socialist bit and ignoring the nationalistic part which informs it...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That sounds basially fine for the person likefish is replying to - there's a very funny thread in theory on this:
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=142309&
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=142309&
Socialism and nationalism are by definition mutually exclusive concepts. The Nazis had no socialistic policies in practice at all, but did articulate as part of their early propoganda opposition to capitalism (and to the supposed fantastical Jewish/liberal/communist conspiracy to control the World).
I think what really muddies the water in people's eyes is not so much the Nazi's calling themselves National Socialists but the practice and policies of regimes calling themselves socialist/communist and labelled 'left-wing'. Such regimes as the USSR, People's Republic of China etc have been heirarchcal, militaristic, expansionist and nationalist - all right-wing concepts. Indeed China today is also very capitalist by any definition (leaving aside the arguments around State capitalism).
By contrast 'liberal' capitalism claims to be the safeguarder of democracy, freedom of expression, individual liberty etc. A claim that can be easily dismantled, provided your alternative reference point is not the totalitarian regimes whether labelled 'right' or 'left'.
I think what really muddies the water in people's eyes is not so much the Nazi's calling themselves National Socialists but the practice and policies of regimes calling themselves socialist/communist and labelled 'left-wing'. Such regimes as the USSR, People's Republic of China etc have been heirarchcal, militaristic, expansionist and nationalist - all right-wing concepts. Indeed China today is also very capitalist by any definition (leaving aside the arguments around State capitalism).
By contrast 'liberal' capitalism claims to be the safeguarder of democracy, freedom of expression, individual liberty etc. A claim that can be easily dismantled, provided your alternative reference point is not the totalitarian regimes whether labelled 'right' or 'left'.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
butchersapron said:
I'd forgotten just how angry that thread made me.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
ViolentPanda said:I'd forgotten just how angry that thread made me.
At least he seemed to get the message and has rarely been back since.
JHE
.
The claim that the Nazis were left-wing crops up quite often from a variety of non-Nazi right-wing people. I think the last time I saw it in a newspaper it was from Norman Tebbit in a letter to the Telegraph. The argument does just about make sense if you first make the (mistaken) assumption that a right-wing economic policy will be 'Thatcherite' - i.e., free-market, laissez-faire. If you assume that, then Nazism and Italian Fascism and Franco's dictatorship were not right-wing - which I think would be a surprise to both the people who made up those regimes and those who lived under them.
I can't help suspecting that Tebbit is being less than frank. I think he is well enough informed to know that economic liberalism has not always been the choice of Conservatives, let alone of all right-wingers. Some other people putting the argument may believe it.
(Right and left, I guess we can all agree, are pretty crude labels, though - and often when the notion of a right-left spectrum is raised someone likes to suggest that really it's more of a circle... blah, blah, blah...)
I can't help suspecting that Tebbit is being less than frank. I think he is well enough informed to know that economic liberalism has not always been the choice of Conservatives, let alone of all right-wingers. Some other people putting the argument may believe it.
(Right and left, I guess we can all agree, are pretty crude labels, though - and often when the notion of a right-left spectrum is raised someone likes to suggest that really it's more of a circle... blah, blah, blah...)
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
likesfish said:on a spam sight some idiots going out about how the Nazi's were really socialist and not really right wing at all
I guess its bollocks but can anyone explain in short sentences that even a yank could understand why he's talking shit please cheers
In some US circles this is wholly based on the "national socialist" aspect of the name, and sometimes also because the nazis were bad, and reds were bad, therefore the nazis were reds.
Also, if pbman is who he claims to be in his sig, then he is actually one of the more rational representatives of those views - they can be far, far worse (as anyone who took part in the return visit to the US board several years ago may recall).
rekil
to menny cranks
Ask them to have a look at the categories of concentration camp victims. All the traditional enemies of political and social conservatism were represented. It will do fuck all good mind. It looks like a basic case of freudian projection.likesfish said:on a spam sight some idiots going out about how the Nazi's were really socialist and not really right wing at all
I guess its bollocks but can anyone explain in short sentences that even a yank could understand why he's talking shit please cheers
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
There was nothing Socialist about the NSDAP. In power it enslaved the working class and destroyed their organisations.
The Strasserites were the left wing of the NSDAP and were butchered on 'the knight of the long knives'.
The Strasserites were the left wing of the NSDAP and were butchered on 'the knight of the long knives'.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Crusader scum - have you never heard of the skyes-jacques agreement?
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
Still pretty impressive body count whatever the reason .Think you could have a really pointless argument who was worse .
I see. 
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
Is nationalism a right-wing ideal? Or is it a left-wing ideal? Or is it neutral?
october_lost
It's not hip any more...
I think this is incorrect, the Nazis ran social programmes (aided by a pick up in the economy) which if I remember rightly William Shirer said were an improvement of conditions previously. These cut across education and welfare.Groucho said:
likesfish
You can't park here sir
if you've got Siberia as a dumping ground don't really need to bother to much with ovens 
had a commie argue hitlers mass killings were racial and euginic lead mostly will only a small amount of political killings (compared with the rest )
while Stalins were purely his political enemies so hew was a better mass murdering cunt
had a commie argue hitlers mass killings were racial and euginic lead mostly will only a small amount of political killings (compared with the rest
)while Stalins were purely his political enemies so hew was a better mass murdering cunt
october_lost
It's not hip any more...
Nationalism surely is a historical stage of development of the bourgeouisie in a respective country, I would have thought it transcends left and right. Nasser for example is seen as a nationalist and I would have had him down as a leftist.kropotkin said:
Groucho said:
i totally disagree with the idea that socialism and nationalism are mutually exclusive .. you might LIKE them to be but in reality they are not. Indeed we have seen more national socialism in both germany and russia than we have seen democratic socialism .. which i can only identify identify in the anarchism of Spain in 1936
you try to argue that the USSR was not socialist .. well it was but a form of state socialism and indeed state capitalist .. you may well see yourselves in the SW as far from them but not from where i sit .. i see a clear continuum between fascism and bolsheivism ..
i also disagree entirely that the nazis had NO socialistic policies as you put it. Apart from nationalising big business ( a core aim of almost every socilaist grouping until recent years) they had a strong 'left-wing' ( until the night of the long knives) which combined ultra racism with anti capitalism .. e.g. they supported a number of strikes .. i would not suggest that the nazi leadership were genuine in supportting these brownshirts, indeed the wiped them out, but i suspect the strasserites ( named after the leaders Otto and ?? Strasser) themselves did see a logico to their national socialism ..
october_lost
It's not hip any more...
They nationalised big buisness?durruti02 said:
They supported strikes?
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