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Who is the real threat: America or Islamic extremists?

I didn't say anything about making biological weapons to counteract evil. I don't believe in evil, although I'm starting to have second thoughts...

I said that anthrax culture can be grown in labs in order to create cow vaccine. If sick cows are evil, then I guess I did say it..

I'm glad you don't like people who kill with biological weapons. I guess if it turns out to be Islamic extremists who did it, then we will have something to agree on.


You lucky, footloose guy, you. How about new shoes? Gotcha..

By the way, give a guy a tip; how did you cadge a girlfriend, when you don't have a pension fund? You studmuffin..
 
I plan to do a little research on this biological weapons business tomorrow. Or I should say my partner will as she is better at it than me.

edited to add

I got lucky in love so my lack of pension went unnoticed. Women are funny like that :)

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
Bastard! Watch out for the chicane....

Truth be told, women can be funny in other ways...

Latest news bulletin; FBI info. that new attacks imminent in US, next few days. We'll be hunkering down now, watching the sky again...

I guess it's time for a little more Yankee comeuppance, huh?
 
Well server is down as usual...

Well I hope they are wrong about that warning. Again.

I would hate to lose some of my mates over there.

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
I hope they're wrong as well. I'd hate to lose anyone here, too..

We are all a little too human...
 
"I don't think it creates the extreme psychological dislocation in those places, that this massive destruction has created here."

Because obviously, having your best mate killed by a bomb if you're Spanish or Afghan is a bit of an inconvenience, but if you're American, it's a traumatic and life-disrupting event, right?
 
Rasrave, if it is unacceptable to use biological weapons on civilians (and if memory serves, Bush has been responsible for tearing up an antil-biological weapons treaty), then why do governments stockpile them? Are they going to use them on civilians too?

PEACE TO ALL!
 
JdubyaH: ever studied a martial art? I mean the 'aggressive' ones, like karate, wu shu, etc, as opposed to tai chi? One of the useful things they teach you, is how to accept a blow, and how to accept the price of a little pain. They do this because, if you are ever forced into a fight, the chances are real good that your opponent is going to land a blow. And the reasonable fact is, most people don't like getting hit, are deathly afraid of it, and avoid it like the plague.

I get the feeling you may have done a little street fighting, so you might know how to take a punch. But can you remember back to the first few times that you ever got hit? I can - it was a huge shock that left me stunned and dumbfounded for a bit.

All very natural, but if you are in a 'for real' fight, that few moments of shock will likely spell your death, when your opponent takes full advantage.

I think you see my overly long, ackward analogy. The US people at home, as opposed to the government, for all their alleged hegemony and warmongering, were unschooled in the ways of war, and open for the 'shock' of that first hit. They just received it. We're seeing the shock etc. Problem for everyone else is that this 'victim' (the US populace) is so big and strong, that it is very dangerous when angered.

Another analogy: would you cherish fighting an untrained opponent who was in an incoherent rage, had twelve inches of reach on you, and was twice as strong and fast as you? Sounds like a recipe for getting seriously hurt...

Back to your point. Afghans and Spaniards cry when they lose a mate to a bomb. But it has happened before. Doesn't make it less painful, but it makes it less...unexpected.

I think it was Kissthecat who said that he had had a couple of narrow misses with bomb explosions, and felt it was all borrowed time thereafter.

That hasn't happened to Americans before now. And that's why their reaction will be so extreme.
 
Nemo: I hope that they are not planning on using these stockpiles on civilians...I think the original purpose of chemical/biological weapons was to use them on another country's military, so all these countries stocked up on them...now that they have realized that they are too awful to use, they are stuck with (yet another) bunch of stuff they cannot use. It kind of reminds me of the Nuclear weapons thing...no one wants to use the weapons because to do so would invite immediate destruction for all...the worry is that some maniac will get his hands on either nuclear or biological weapons and upset the balance...
 
"Afghans and Spaniards cry when they lose a mate to a bomb. But it has happened before. Doesn't make it less painful, but it makes it less...unexpected."

So, like I said, you get an American brother killed, it's upsetting, but if you're an Afghan or a Spaniard, you're used to it, because you're less of an emotional being (desensitised to the poiunt of being subhuman really) so it's not really that troubling, is that right?

Let me try and make this simple for you:

"you fucking arrogant cunt, where do you get the nerve to spout this inhumane bullshit, would you like to explain to a Spanish or Afghan mother who's just had their kid killed that it would be more upsetting if they were American?"

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: JWH [usual rubbish] ]
 
So the logical extension to Johnny's argument is to carry on with terrorist attacks on Americans until they become desensitised to it so it's less - unexpected?

Hmmm....... something not quite right there.
:confused:
 
Johhny

If a bunch of Aliens came to earth and informed you that peace between all nations and socialism was right and proper, would you:

a. nuke them

b. check if they were stronger than you

c. if so try to be mates with them

d. sell them your computer and/or your wife

e. get a job on the mother ship

f. go to the mountains and become a resistance fighter

g. see that A was a sensible first move

H. Go to a Gerry Haliwell concert

I would be interested to know...

edited to say who I addressed this question to which is Johhny but anyone can answer except Mysh because his posts are too long oh and Otto who hates me for being irrelevant. Maybe it was irreverent...

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
Rasrave.

There is always an excuse for everything isn't there?

Like:

'Oh, OUR country is so responsible that it can be entrusted with weapons of mass destruction. We're civilised you see.'

'Goddamn those Iraqis. Those evil bunch of Arabs have weapons of mass destruction! Lets nuke/bomb/kill them etc. because they're a threat to society'

You say you hope that these weapons won't be used on civilians. But if push comes to shove there will always be 'collateral damage' won't there? See? There is always a justification for everything if you have a subjective value system that says 'We are Good' and 'They are Bad'.

It is very easy to argue against that, which is to simply look at it from another person's perspective and say 'Hey, well we've got these nukes but we're pretty responsible. Now I'm not sure about those Yanks....'.

It's all subjective. The only way you can escape this trap is to acknowledge that no-one has the monopoly of being the conscience of the world.

Iraq is a good case in point of a subjective value system. When Iraq was fighting Iran, Saddam was responsible and could gas the Kurds with impunity. We even helped him, no problem. He was a Good Guy. Now he is an Evil Maniac.

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
Rasrave and JC, if you think that they would use biological weapons on 'military' targets, then it is reasonable to suppose that their aim would be as bad as with bombs and more civilians would die than military. But of course, this is 'collateral damage' and perfectly acceptable, especially given that they are used to it. Yes?

I'll give you another example, we have been having terrorist bombings on and off for over 30 years, so is it any less tragic when a child dies in one of those simply because it has happened before?

PEACE TO ALL!
 
KTC: You forgot option z: Invite the aliens out to visit the back 40 acres of the ranch to look at some cattle you want to sell them, then sneak back to the space ship and try to have sex with their wives (so long as they had less than 8 arms and legs).

Also, KTC, repeat after me: 'World harmony' and 'universal socialism' needn't go hand in hand....World harmony and universal....

I truly apologize to everyone; I will go back and berate my elementary school teachers for their apparent inability to teach me how to get a simple message across in English. I don't seem to be able to communicate my thoughts on why there has been a difference in the terrorist attacks in US, vs elsewhere in the world.

Let's see if I have my facts straight; please correct me should I fall into error:

Terrorist bombings etc. have occurred in certain countries of the world, for many years. Britain, Spain, France, Israel, etc. come immediately to mind.

At least since the second world war, that type of terrorist attack on the civilian population of the US has been almost unheard of. In fact, most people can name the few attempts that have occurred: WTC in the early 90s, Oklahoma City. There were also a few bombings during the Vietnam war by radical groups like the Weather Underground, but there weren't many; few if any people died, and most of you are too young to remember the Vietnam War anyway.

In those countries where these things have happened more regularly, there is often a heightened level of awareness, and also security.

Logically, in those countries where it hasn't happened (the US), there is lowered awareness of the personal threat, and low security. This leads the population to a (perhaps) false sense of security, even a feeling of 'it can't happen here' (because it doesn't happen here)

When a bomb goes off at Horse Guards, it's a terrible thing. It is obviously painful and a terrible loss for any family who loses someone. However, for the population, and the country at large, it is not a reality altering, sea-change event. Why not? Because it has happened there many times before, and the people and the country have long ago begun trying to make the changes, physical and emotional, necessary to try to deal with such tragic events (on a national or societal level, if not on the personal level).

Sept 11 was a reality altering, sea-change event in the US, because it had not happened there before, and the population was not physically nor emotionally prepared to deal with such an assault.

The people of New York were traumatzed by the deaths of their family members, just as would be families in Madrid, Moscow or Sabra.

But the sense of shock and outrage were of tremendous magnitude, because it hadn't happened before.

If a car bomb had exploded in Belfast on Sept. 11,we all would have called it a senseless act and a needless loss of life. Neither we, nor you, nor the people of Northern Ireland, would have remained glued to the TV for the next day, then walked around in a trance for the next week

Is this really that complicated? To say that a bombing in Belfast is not unexpected, does not imply that life is somehow of less value there. It is merely a recognition of current events. If you can't understand this, go buy a book on logic and read it. Keep a thesaurus handy.

Patel, rather than inure the US to bombings through more attacks, why not work to eliminate terrorist bombings elsewhere, so that such attacks become unexpected for most people.

I think it was either KTW or JdubyaH who talked of missile attacks as cowardly. Sort of like those who put deadly biological dust into an envelope and mail it off to unsuspecting people. Sounds like a new low in cowardice.

Speaking of the anthrax thing, I think it has done a lot to make the terrorists look like either objects of ridicule, or like people with low intelligence.

They are targeting people in the media (Tom Brokaw) and the pseudo media (National Enquirer, Globe etc at American Media) They don't like the message these journalists are reporting, so the terrorists are shooting the messenger! How moronic, rather than targeting those with the decision making power, they're going after the Nightly News Anchor. What a bunch of bumblers. Maybe if you are sitting in a cave in Afghanistan, you don't realize that there is a host of perfect-haired anchors waiting to step into Brokaw's job. The news will be on at 6 o'clock, even if you kill Brokaw, Rather, and Katie Couric. What a stupid, sick joke.

It was bad when I thought we were facing a group of intelligent, cunning fundamentalists. Actually, sounds like we're facing a group of well armed fanatics with the collective intelligence of an 8th grade glue sniffing party. All the better reason to hunt them down and shoot them in their caves.
 
"I think it was either KTW or JdubyaH who talked of missile attacks as cowardly. Sort of like those who put deadly biological dust into an envelope and mail it off to unsuspecting people. Sounds like a new low in cowardice."

Have you still not understood that criticising Bush does not mean praising bin Laden?
 
Asuming that alians exsist, I don’t understande why they would want to buy your cows johney ? but then again earth cows are so full of antibiotiocs, they could be passed of as a cheap narcotic. Well theres nothing emoral about selling drugs ( there just anothere commoddity ).fucking hell mc-donnalds might become the equivalent of an amesterdam coffee shop. The quarter pounder Mc-trip.

Repeat after me… “ earth cows make you high “ “earth cows make you high”
 
Bezzer, they'd want to buy my cows because I'm such a damn good salesman...why, right here in Canada, I made a handsome profit selling preformed ice blocks to our Eskimo friends...

Bezzer, your post makes me think that you've had your head down there, sucking on that cow's psychedelic udder... (Which is better than attempting to insert your head into your own ass, which is an apt analogy to the contortionist logic employed by some of your compatriots...)

KTC, there's always an option z, so long as one is prepared to think outside the box..

JdubyaH (can I just call ya 'dubya?'; I feels like I knows ya): The logical device of inference allows me to assume, where we are discussing two opinions, or positions, or people, that the attribution of a quality to one, without mention of any corresponding quality in the second, that you do not attribute the quality to the second.

Did I miss the post where you said "Osama bin Laden is a coward"?

I will repeat my opinion, if it will help you to get the ol' brain cells firing:

Only snivelling, verminous cowards kill secretaries and mailroom clerks by mailing out poison letters.

That's not so hard, is it?
 
You are right Johhny, there is always an option z. Someone 'unknown' has taken it.
 
Johnny,

When you get your head out of your bottom, please let us know how you can be sure that the Taleban/OBL is behind these anthrax cases when Afghanistan is being bombed at the moment.

Doesn't this show that this really isn't a war against terrorism? If it is, tell me how it's working. What it is, is a war for gun-toting Westerners to make themselves feel good from the comfort of their armchairs (when they're not to busy stickling their heads up their bottoms). That's all.

If we find out that another Timothy Mcveigh or Unabomber is behind these anthrax cases, what will you suggest? Bomb America?
 
[quote PCS]
If we find out that another Timothy Mcveigh or Unabomber is behind these anthrax cases, what will you suggest? Bomb America?
----------------

I would oppose bombing America PCS. But then I'm a nutter.
 
Johnny - failing to slag off OBL for being a vicious, bigoted, evil cunt is a bit like failing to slag off Hitler. It pretty much goes without saying.
 
KTC: Clever...

Patel: The 'head up your ass' imagery is mine! Come up with you own toilet-mouth insults, leave mine alone!

As posted elsewhere, one of the anthrax letters originated in Malaysia. Patel, the operative word is 'in-ter-na-tion-al'. Not all of OBL's eggs are in one Afghani basket. Otherwise, it would be no prob for us to break them all with one 'bunker buster' Tee Hee (Sorry, joking).

Looks like the plane dudes lived in North America for years before that last devout night at the Vegas lap dance palace, followed by the plane trip to the 85th floor.

That's planning. Like the 35 Arab guys who have gotten their hazardous materials truck driving licences in Denver in the last couple of years, in small groups, each group with the exact same interpreter, and none of whom have sought a job driving truck in the years since getting the licences.

Like, maybe, sending out a few guys around the world, providing them with a nice big pickle jar of spores, then slowly giving the signal to get the cards and letters flying.

What if it is a McVeigh clone? (Along with his buddy in Malaysia). Do like you did with the original. Get him and stick a poison needle in his arm. If he holes up, do another Waco. Did you forget Waco? You see, if the US thinks some of its own citizens are right wing terrorists, it will do the local version of 'bombing'

KTC: you seem nice. Don't bomb the US. It has a nasty downside associated with it...
 
The threat of the pacifists...

Notes on Nationalism by George Orwell, May, 1945

"The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to the taking of life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism.

Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defense of western countries.

The Russians, unlike the British, are not blamed for defending themselves by warlike means, and indeed all pacifist propaganda of this type avoids mention of Russia or China. It is not claimed, again, that the Indians should abjure violence in their struggle against the British. Pacifist literature abounds with equivocal remarks which, if they mean anything, appear to mean that statesmen of the type of Hitler are preferable to those of the type of Churchill, and that violence is perhaps excusable if it is violent enough.

After the fall of France, the French pacifists, faced by a real choice which their English colleagues have not had to make, mostly went over to the Nazis, and in England there appears to have been some small overlap of membership between the Peace Pledge Union and the Blackshirts. Pacifist writers have written in praise of Carlyle, one of the intellectual fathers of Fascism.

All in all it is difficult not to feel that pacifism, as it appears among a section of the intelligentsia, is secretly inspired by an admiration for power and successful cruelty. The mistake was made of pinning this emotion to Hitler, but it could easily be retransfered."

As true then as it is today.
 
in case anyone out there doesn't think that us/western fundamentalism isn't a threat, check out www.military,com for all the latest news and views from the gung-ho generation. if you're sickened, like i was, then register under a false name and join in the disscussions. spread the vibe of peace or just plain antagonise them (my personal favourite). though they all seem to brainwashed to even ponder on a few, somewhat unpallatable truths.
let me know what you think, and there's a free ice-cream in it for you.
love & rage, from the king of the 99 Flake.
;)
 
Gee mr whippy, same sentiments from a different perspective.

Now you know why I am here :)
 
Pauly quoted a greater man than himself, Orwell :

"The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to the taking of life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point"

I freely admit to being in the latter category, and few honest pacifists would claim total intellectual certainty or consistency. (But why is the onus on us anyway? We're not killing people or condoning it!)

I know of no pacifists, now, who are totalitarian apologists though, or who have ANYTHING OTHERR THAN TOTAL CONDEMNATION of what happened in new York (as well as in Afghanistan subsequently). Those who pretended to be pacifists in WW2 while really being Stalinists, were not genuinely pacifist.

Pauly's attempt to twist Orwell's words to push his Daily Telegraph style assertion that pacifists ) are Osama Bin Laden or Taliban apologists, is a travesty and a slander. Has he ever met a pacifist either religious or humanitarian, and has he ever made any real effort to talk to one properly, listening, understanding, in a real conversation, rather than sneering at him or her like the superiority-complex Tory that he sounds like?

I'm against ALL terrorism, whether killing civilians in NY or retaliatory state sponsored terrorism of civilians and children that will lead to escalatory terrorism in retaliation to that. More deaths!

"As true then as it is today"???

Why not make some effort to understand the thinking of some of us **properly** instead of sneering from behind your ill informed slander-the-left agenda??

Alternatively, if YOU can't tolerate OUR differing/divergant opinions in all their various forms** instead of lumping them all together, just fuck off.

You'll be calling us communists next, you McCarthyite.

W of W

** just to pre-empt the inevitable right wing whine, for the seventy ninth time <yawwwwnnnn> trotting out the tired trolling arse-dull "U75 clique toeing the inflexible left wing party line political correctness++ intolerant censorship of different opinions" BOLLOCKS!! :mad:

++ MY ARSE, R, TM

[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: William of Walworth ]
 
Twisting his words? That is what he wrote verbatim. Now I must translate what he said to suit today's picture.

"The majority of pacifists are simply humanitarians who object to death and hide from understanding the necessary actions to combat violence. Pacifists have a hatred of western democracy.

Pacifists do not denounce violent actions as strongly as they condemn violence in defense of western countries.

The Taliban, unlike the West, are not blamed for defending themselves by warlike means. It is not claimed that the Taliban should abjure violence in their struggle against the West. "

Now at least you can say I have twisted his words, although I stand by the assessment.

But who is being intolerant? I post a comment about Pacifism from one of the greatest thinkers of our time with only a phrase or two attached and you cannot address the matter in a mature fashion.

Who is not trying to understand whom?
 
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