whoa they've jsut blown up tel aviv

[tribal]

It has proved that his destroying and murdering of thousands of innocent arab civilians has done absolutley nothing let alone destroyed the non existent "militant" "terrorist" networks which he claims are there but no one else has ever seen!


---------

what are you fucking stupid????

non existent? who do you think blows up israelis on daily basis? the fucking santa claus??

if the palestinians are so miserable its through their own actions. they should have signed a peace agreemnt, and began building a state, a nation, not a suicide bomber factory. just look at what arafat is teaching the palstinian kids throght the PA media. did you ever see these broadcasts?? its most vicious vile, anti semitic propaganda. it would put nazis to shame. dont fuckin tell me its desperation. in the 40s and 50s israelis were just as desperate and felt just as threatened. they didnt go and blow themselves up. they built a nation. nonexistent terror networks. there is your problem right there.

 

[Tipesh]

How do you define the "Palestinian controlled areas"?

Complex, I am talking about areas under Palestinian security control (the 'A' territories). Call it 1993 borders if you want.
Here's a map for better understanding of 'palestinian controlled areas'.

(http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/pamap.html)

Last time I heard, there were a lot of Israeli tanks on bits of land that the Palestinians would see as thiers.

There is a difference between what the Palestinians see as theirs (some say entire Israel, some say 1967 lines) and what IS, practiclly, theirs (the A territories).. Israeli tanks entered the A territories (Rammalah, Jenin, Schem, Beit Lehem, Beit Jalah, etc. , see map) two monthes ago, and withdrew a week ago (operation 'defensive wall' is the name).

Sharon tried the "no talks until a week of no violence" line, and you have now pushed the deadline out to a whole month. Since neither side managed a week without attacking the other, do you hold out much hope for a month of absolute quiet?

That's my point! I know a month of quiet is impossible, because the "resistence" groups won't stop attacking. I was just trying to show all their supporters here, why the terror organizations are bad, not good.

What do I think should be done? As I said many times in the past, Seperation Now! Withdrawl from most of the B territories (those under Israeli security control), and construction of a very long, high, fence. Break off contact with the Palestinians for the next few years - let things cool off, Arafat to die of natural causes (Altough I have a feeling that in reality, he won't die of natural causes. Not if things continue this way.)

ali30 --> If Sharon doesn't take advantage of a genuine oppurtinity for peace (after a theoretical quiet month), I believe the Israeli public opinion will quickly shift to the left, and his goverment will fall. Israel is under a national unity goverment, and the left (Peres and friends) stay in it only because elections now would be very bad for them.
Also, I tend to believe, that deep inside, he is not as evil as everybody thinks he is. But that's just a feeling. It wouldn't make me vote for him

 

[Streathamite]

he is not as evil as everybody thinks he is. But that's just a feeling.

May I ask you to examine your conscience in the light of Sabra/Chatila? He bears a huge responsibility for that.
Also, Suicide bombings are the work of people so desperate that they feel they have no other option left.
Tribal, the Israelis did NOT build a nation; they marched in and stole it from the Palestinians, with connivance from holocaust-guilty Europeans.
Tipesh:

(I am talking about the last few years here, as far as I'm concerned we should have aldready withdrawn in 1967).

May I have clarification here? Complete withdrawal? Removal of ALL settlements built/maintained by Israelis on land taken at that time? If so, Well Said.

 

[ali303]

tipesh -

couldn't agree more about pressure for talks. but whenever it comes to negotiation sharon flounders, as he was before defensive wall. and of course as he was voted in as an ultra-hawk, the slightest hint of softening his stance is pounced on by netanyahu.

but to think this means sharon will yield to US pressure is mistaken. if he was planning to negotiate why has he been shoring up his coalition with an influx of extreme-right ministers, thus reducing his room for manouevre in any talks? he calculates that he can withstand US pressure, sufficiently discredit any peace initiatives and thereby continue implementing a comprehensive military solution. as soon as he's forced to stop military action he's finished.

as for being evil, i'm not quite sure where cynicism ends and evil begins, but ariel sharon is around that thin line somewhere. shabra and shatila are well known and i think there can be little doubt that the massacres were an integral part of sharon's game plan. but there's also the massacre in kibya 20 years earlier which he directly commanded. and there's his scorched earth policy on withdrawal from the sinai - many senior IDF officers found his behaviour there untenable.

aside from that the policy of 'transfer' i.e. ethnic cleansing, with which he's closely associated, is inherently evil. and then of course there's his habit of deliberately provoking violence to justify military action - approaching the wailing wall to spark the intifada, assassinations of hamas leaders during ceasefires inevitably bringing on more suicide bombings. of course you could blame all this on the palestinians - but it was a tactic sharon consistently used throughout his military career.

he is also devious, manipulative and dishonest. he has consistently mislead his own cabinet, not to mention the israeli public about his actions and intentions. ben-gurion made it very clear that sharon was not to be trusted.

ultimately sharon is an unreconstructed proponent of the old zionist iron wall doctrine: that Palestinian aspirations of statehood must be crushed with overwhelming military force.

there really is no room in his mindset for any kind of settlement. he led israel into the abyss 20 years ago and he's doing it again. he was sacked in disgrace then and the same will happen this time. he's wasting one hell of a lot of israeli and palestinian life in the meantime simply for his own ends.

so to think that ariel sharon will somehow deliver peace is wishful thinking

 

[TheGremlin]

Originally posted by Nemo
Gremlin, has anyone here gloried in this outrage? Why on earth are you shouting at us? You know what Jock said is true, it's sad that more people must die as part of the same insanity.

PEACE TO ALL!

Sorry Nemo, sorry Jock also, misunderstood post on first reading.....apologies.

 

[pcanning]

catching up, been working ...

no sane, responsible prime minister would countenance killing his own people for timely propaganda purposes, would they?

er, probably not (i'm a fellow of the fuck-up school of history - see the role of Italy in the Bethlehem siege) .. but .. given the current revelations in Israel about shady funding for Sharon's party and the history of course ...

if then how? given how mossad has been complaining that Sharon's military operation is pointless (and they have a point given this bomb wouldn't you think?) how else? maybe an indirect connection with the islamists themselves left over from 80s Israeli/American support?

whatever. it's all slightly surreal guesswork.

given that the CIA is reorganizing Palestinian security, Arafat just condemned terrorism in Arabic and (what was the other hoop he's supposed to jump through?) something else, what have the Israeli govt. still got against him? The dossier didn't hold much water and Sharon calling him a terrorist is pot-calling-the-kettle-black to us dispassionate observers :}

if Arafat does end up a figurehead and he's still supposed to be deported then we really are in a world title fight, heavyweight contenders, no holds barred, this-is-personal.

I think the real test of Hammas, Islamic Jihaad and al-aqsa would come if there was no Israeli killing of civilians (I know, I can hear the pigs wings flapping overhead). would they still continue the attacks on Israeli civilians? In a sense they're still stuck in Groundhog Day and the passive support in the population is huge. If the latter was cut away with some real hope of peace and a proper state how would they react?

It's also interesting to hear Bush and Blair harping on today about reform of the PA. Palestinian moderates first raised this but our dear leaders aren't crediting them. Big mistake. These people need to gain the ascendency in Palestinian politics for any new state to stand a hope of practically working.

Interesting also to hear about the first real splits in the Israeli cabinet. Sharon has been forced to accept some internationalization through the Ramallah and probable Bethlehem deals against his wishes and this idea is gaining currency on the Left and in Labor I understand.

Firstly, everywhere we look we see the Palestinian viewpoint being put across, and everywhere we look we see the Israeli viewpoint being ignored or belittled.

awh.
come.
on.
mate.
have you seen the CBS Evening News? they show it on BBC News 24? Have you read The Sun? Do I have to go on? A bit of intelligent investigative journalism on the Beeb and in The Independent does not a biased media make. And - recall - that study which counted up the 'biases' and it was running heavily in Israel's favor. Get a grip!

The people who are suffering here mostly are the Palestinians. My point is that their own militants are the one to blame for 1) attacking Israelis, 2) basing themselves in populated areas.

I refer the thread back to my long post earlier detailing how Israeli Palestinians are discriminated against in Israel both in law and in practise [http://urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=141548#post141548]. You cannot blame *that suffering on suicide bombers.

You may not remember, but in Barak times at least 20 times we had suicide bombings break off cease fire negotiations.

I understand that Israeli political realities intrude but all sorts of negotiations happen right in the middle of full blown tanks vs. tanks wars. if every time some fringe groups tried to derail negotiations they actually were derailed then they'd be no peace in countless countries. actually, removing yourself from negotiations *is 'caving in to terrorism'.

people see the UN as neutral but there is an enormous Arab say

scratched my head but can't think of anyone who sees it as 'neutral'. Mary robinson most eloquently described the UN the other day. It's a club for every nation. no one's left out. we're all there so it doesn't follow one agenda. It has some rules and policies (e.g. human rights) but these operate in this conflicted agenda. The point about Israel is the same as for Sudan and Cuba - the only human rights offenders last year according to the UN - it's politics which decides this internationally. But this doesn't mean that people like Mary Robinson or some of the UN humanitarian agencies or peace operations like the one in East Timor have no value. This is why the attack on the UN by the Israeli govt. was actually an attack on the rest of the world and isolationist. We want all the benefits but none of the responsibilities. And come on, it's no excuse to say '*they got away with it so why shouldn't *we'

It seems that the Palestinians only understand violence.

have a look at the polls of Palestinians. vast majority for peace.

The fastest way to end the occupation is to stop the terror!

sorry, but this really is the 'big lie'. Sharon has repeatedly said that he will *not stop the occupation. If Netzarim is just the same as Tel Aviv then Sharon wants endless war.

What else can we do? We are at a loss for what to do now?

Until Sharon is ditched for the left (who knows what amount of spilled blood Netanyahu would cause) and Israelis are persuaded by politicians (a decent position from labor would be a good start) to make real concessions (which didn't happen in Taba - I know you think Israel did give the family silver away, Tipesh, because you think "what the Palestinians see as theirs (some say entire Israel, some say 1967 lines) and what IS, practically, theirs (the A territories)" amounts to a state) then no end to the occupation. unless you have a different definition of 'the occupation'.

real concessions = real peace.

Someone from Ha'retz was making Tipesh's argument about rightists being the best people to make the peace last night, presumably because they would bring more of the people with them. this would work if there was any evidence that Sharon is capable of making peace (and I'm sure more than a few leftists have 'brought the country with them'). maybe you know something I don't but where's the evidence that Sharon could really make peace?

lastly, just to suprising perhaps rush to the defense of "bluePaul, Tipesh, The Strategist" (and sorry if this sounds patronising).The very fact that they are debating with us is cause for hope. Who are these Israelis who peace is to be made with. think. If we can change them and persuade them and draw their attention to other sources of information, and if more people do that with more Israelis, if *dialogue happens, then we are closer to peace. Don't be unnecessarily divisive. don't stop talking.

thank you for your contribution ali303, and ..

... OI! some of us here would rather not be screamed at, presented with the biggest paragraphs ever seen by man, abused or sworn at. too much to ask? I thought not. we don't want to go the way of the indie's boards now do we. calm the fuck down.

 

[Anneth]

someone was talking about maps . . .

here's a few:

this one shows the 1947 partition

this one shows the lines per Oslo 1995

and

this one shows the 1998 redeployment.

The PA does not have a single area under its control. What it has is a fragmented network of small autonomous zones.

 

[Jock_MacGrim]

A major relief to read your well-informed and rational contributions, pcanning. Also some good stuff on the thread started by White Lotus. Any attempt at a balanced debate on this topic usually gets buried under an avalanche of slogans, accusation and counter-accustation. And I don't mean just on these boards, but anywhere.

That kind of trench-warfare gets us nowhere.

 

[pcanning]

I am making no comment on this clipping except to ask if anyone can shed more light on the 'facts' marshalled here. I will only mention as additional information that the BBC did briefly talk about a Russian mafia explanation soon after (10ish I think) yesterday.

"Disgusted intelligence sources in Palestine claim that the latest bombing atrocity that killed 10 and wounded 57 was an “inside job”, i.e. Jews killing Jews for media advantage. In all probability the March 2, 2002 attack was carried out by the revitalized Stern Gang, responsible for bombing Pacha’s Disco in Tel Aviv during June 2001, and the Jerusalem Ben Yehudah Mall in early December 2001.
The intelligence sources point to damage at the crime scene in the Beit Israel district of Jerusalem as proof of their claims that the weapon used was a car bomb rather than a suicide bomber. Photographs shown on this web site prove the claims correct. These photos were taken before the mainstream western media received their “sanitized” versions, in which there is no car and very little shrapnel visible.
From the outline of the car we can tell that there was an internal explosion, with the blast shock waves radiating outwards, before being deflected upwards to atmosphere by a nearby wall. Before the truth was re-written by the Jerusalem Mayor, local reports carried a reasonably accurate account: “Burial society volunteers picked up body parts amid debris slick with motor oil and blood. A truck ferried off the charred husk of a car…” and: “Fierce flames from the destroyed car rose into the night sky on the street where the blast ripped through the Beit Israel district of the city just as worshippers were emerging from synagogues…”
But then Jerusalem police chief Mr Mickey Levy took over and said a suicide bomber with a shrapnel bomb strapped to him had walked up to a group of people and blown himself up. The bomber "got to the center of the neighborhood, approached a group of people (and detonated) a large explosive on his body," he said. Three cheers for Mickey, whose imagination knows no bounds, and is an essential component of Ariel Sharon’s ongoing terror campaign against the Palestinian refugee camps.
The car itself blows away the cover story of course, which is why it was removed so swiftly. This bombing took place during the evening of the Sabbath in one of the most radical and Orthodox Jewish districts in the city, with literally hundreds of armed policemen and troops patrolling the streets. Anyone believing that an Arab could simply drive into the middle of Beit Israel on Saturday night, park right next to the Synagogue and then walk away whistling to himself, is living in cloud cuckoo land. Any such Arab would have been shot in seconds.
Finding an Arab villain for the job was equally difficult. Initially the London Independent newspaper claimed Mohammed Daragmeh was the bomber, while at the same time the BBC in London was claiming the bomber as Mohammed al-Chouhani. Well, it was probably Mohammed something-or-other wasn’t it? And no matter who he was, the culprit was “known” to be working for the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, an alleged offshoot of Yasir Arafat’s very own al-Fatah.
Though the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade might be able to produce a name for the western media [and a body as well if necessary], this would be no more impressive than Abu Nidal pulling the same trick twenty or thirty years ago. By now most readers will be aware that Abu Nidal was a servant of the Mossad for a minimum of 17 years. The same goes for the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade today.
If Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or Hizbollah publicly admit to an operation on their respective websites, you can take the information to the bank. For all of the others, interpret the real masterminds behind the operation as Mossad or Shin Bet.
Why the operation was launched is not difficult to analyze. Last week Ariel Sharon went on one of his more grandiose killing sprees in the Palestinian refugee camps, when Britain and America nervously asked him to slow things down a bit. After all, there were a minimum of 20 Palestinian dead, and probably many more in the back streets hidden from the cameras. For a startled western public the number of Palestinian dead was awesome, bordering on sickening.
Wimps like these were a real drag for Ariel, who has on many occasions indicated publicly that he would like to kill every Palestinian in Palestine – some say with his own bare hands if at all possible. Well, after the car bomb in Beit Israel which killed so many “innocent” Jews, Ariel Sharon should be able to continue with his Palestinian genocide plans in relative peace for a least the next few weeks. He may be a genocidal maniac, but Sharon is far from stupid.

http://geocities.com/jewishterrorists/black.html"

from http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/05/29169.php

 

[Revolting]

Any Palestinian group may be infiiltrated, but Al-Aqsa are supposed to be trusted hand-picked cells from within Fatah and the Tamzin - there is no recruiting office to march up to.
Marwan Barghouti has also spoken highly of their effectiveness, so this is very unlikely. They are certainly more trustworthy than anybody else.

The evolution of the originally foreign-sponsored Islamic movement into Hamas and Jihad is far more murky, but Hamas in their current form are a home-grown organisation, as much nationalist as religious, and well-regarded by the community. Hamas and its military wing are technically separate though, and I don't know if they are hand picked cells or not.

Jihad may be the most likely to be infiltrated, and they are associated with sister parties of the same name in Egypt and elsewhere.

Instinctively, I would not believe that clipping (where is it from ?), but there have been some occasions where Hamas and Jihad were initially confused about which of them had carried out certain bombings, and a lot of their missions seem ridiculously amateurish. Hmm ...
Anyway, this article specifically blames Aqsa, so it is bullshit

 

[pcanning]

THIS WILL BE AWFUL
just been announced in israel that cabinet has approved major military action.
IDF massing troops near Gaza in preparation for retaliatory strike http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...ontrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

gush shalom are in the wrong place.

CBS evening news just carried *pro-palestinian piece highlighting sharon's comments about putting off peace 10-20 years and bush's praise for arafat's statement today.

 

[Countonezero]

bui;d a wall it worked in germany not terriably well but at least then the killings would be minamal and mainly sectarian instead of wholesale . it would mean that when the people decided it was time for the wall to come down it would be taken down just like east west germany . the longer you ahve children on boths sides watching ther mothers andfathers being killing the longer you will see the death perpetuated as israel has decide that it will neve r admit that chaitila sarbria jehnin etc were wrong that they should ahve been a complaet withdrawal in 1967 which ther e wasn't then fuck it build a bloody wall ! put anothe rone round jerulem and call it an international place that will belong to all have fucking great metal detectors garound eveyr entrance and exit just like in air ports or the taj mahal in inida nad make every onwe walk through tthem outlaw guns in jeruselem and have it patrolled by a combine united arab israel police force that insisted that only secular non practiceing peoples from both faith groups joined. each jeruselem have only intergrated schools places of worship and ban all relgious meetings with in the main town.

if thiis seems a bit extreme then look at the altnative soon there will be [peace cos once everyone has killed each other they figting is sure to stop. the radical calls i saw int he evening standard today asking for arafats head on a plate were as bad as thoses asking for sharons neither one of them is a decent human being or even attempts to pass for one eyt both are in power and to that end are the voices for there peoples they have to be made to sit down and talk.

i am intrested to kno whow long it will be before the unadress issue of the mothers in this area rises up and starts to take control of the situation as they may weel be able to emphatise with each other as they watch there sons and husbands go off to kill each other again and how long it will be before these voices are the dominate majority. cos that may end up being the only way forward.

 

[Revolting]

Robert Fisk in today's Indie
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=293162

Seems the Americans rejected Sharon's proof of Arafat involvement not because they didn't believe him (it was never about what they believed, they knew Arafat wasn't responsible), but because Sharon didn't bother making his forgeries credible enough to pass even the most cursory media examination.

Nevertheless, they will invent another reason to support Sharon's next offensive.

 

[pcanning]

curious moment to introduce humour ... http://www.motherjones.com/web_exclusives/commentary/humor/images/recipe.swf

this is pretty funny too. mossad has been running an american spy ring using "hundreds of young Israelis falsely claiming to be art students." alledgedly. [url]http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/05/29701.php[/url]

 

[thestrategist]

Jewish terrorists committing the suicide bombings?

Does that mean ALL the attacks were committed by Jews, or just the ones that come at inconvenient times, like now for example?

This sounds like Arafat's wet dream.

But seriously, would Hamas and Jihad claim responsibility for attacks that Jewish terrorists committed?

In fact, Hamas and Jihad have been in a competition to blow up as many Israelis as possible, but Hamas is well and truly in the lead. Many times BOTH claim to have committed an attack.

Also, I just read on Reuters that Arafat has arrested 14 Hamas militants in Gaza in reaction to the attack. If the Israelis blew themselves up, why isn't Arafat openly claiming this?

Guys, you are loosing your sense of reality.

So what if some Palestinian claimed Jewish extremists did some of the attacks? Palestinians also claimed there was a massacre in Jenin, and we now know that was a boldfaced lie.

A major relief to read your well-informed and rational contributions, pcanning.

Jock, I hope this was meant to be sarcastic, because, to be very honest, if you can't recognize highly subjective writing, who knows what you'll believe. Mein Kampf maybe?

 

[thestrategist]

have u ever watched the mainstream news? then you will see the israeli viewpoint, it has only been aired for the last 10 years non stop......

Well, I just had a thought! If the pro-Israelis say that the news is highly anti-Israel, and the pro-Palestinians say the news is highly pro-Israel, then maybe, just maybe, the news is being, GOSH, GEE, OBJECTIVE!

In case you didn't realize, there are TWO sides to every story, and being objective is the take the merit from BOTH sides to come up with the possible truth.

and you bullshit about militants basing themselves in populated areas - THATS WHERE THEY LIVE U FUCK, where else can they base themselves? their homes, they arent a fucking army like IDF they are resistance fighters, they do it anyway they can..

So are you saying that Israeli can die in pool halls, cafes, religious festival meals, and that the terrorists can get away with it scott free?

 

[thestrategist]

I understand that Israeli political realities intrude but all sorts of negotiations happen right in the middle of full blown tanks vs. tanks wars. if every time some fringe groups tried to derail negotiations they actually were derailed then they'd be no peace in countless countries. actually, removing yourself from negotiations *is 'caving in to terrorism'.

The Israeli left has done EVERYTHING possible to make peace.

We have given back land, withdrawn troops, given PA police guns, and tried and tried and tried to make peace until we are blue in the face.

And this is the thanks we get? This is the most unbalanced argument I have seen you make.

The Israeli left tried to make peace, but the Palestinians each time only wanted violence.

 

[Abu Arak]

The Israeli left has done EVERYTHING possible to make peace.

Have you removed the settlements (the illegal colonisation of an illegally occupied land)? Have you even stopped expanding them?

 

[bruise]

From Pcanning’s article (and noted that pcanning doesn’t give it any credibility):

“By now most readers will be aware that Abu Nidal was a servant of the Mossad for a minimum of 17 years. The same goes for the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade today.”

Oh come on. This is surely bollox, right? (The bit about the Brigades)



The Strategist - I was reading through, gathering news, but also worrying that the thread was veering on degenerating into flame wars. I also (pcanning's original point) was going to ask for restraint, and to respect the point that this board is one of the few places debate can take place over such entrenched differences. And also (like pcanning) to ask for respect that pro-Zionists carry on the debate.

We can't all be right, but between us we might be able to work out A) what the hell is going on B) what directions towards peace there might be.

Then you posted this:

But on a personal note, pcanning, I am actually starting to understand you a little more. I can see that you are a highly emotional bigot under that "well-informed and rational" exterior.

and scrolling back to c+p, I notice you sprinkle around the 'bigot' word more than once.

You are losing it, big time. Because you can't deal head on with the 'well-informed and rational' arguments that pcanning uses you resort to paranoid insult. Surely you can see that all you are achieving is to undermine your own position?

This is a surprising, unjustified and damaging personal attack. I can see nothing in the many 1000s of pcanning's words that I have read that suggests that he is biggoted in any way. Quite the reverse - s/he seems to be making an honest attempt - involving a lot of research also - to understand what is going on. In the process s/he does us all a great service and informs all who read the posts. (And I would urge everyone to read the part in the thread where he explains just how Israel treats Israeli Palestinians as second class citizens).

Just look at your latest post:

This is the proof that I was looking for to prove you are a bigot pcanning.

Which is all the more weird for following a perfectly reasonable comment about how peace processes work in the real world. What is in your head?

Shame on you The Strategist. I think you should appologise. I understand you are in an emotional/difficult situation. In the UK we have a little understanding of being faced with bombs etc., but obviously not as much as someone in Israel. And I'm sure everyone here is motivated by distress about what is going on, a desire to see how peace is possible and to see how genocide (or either side) can be avoided. Please engage on that basis.

 

[Tipesh]

I really don't know how to respond to all the recent conspiracy theories going around here.. I just laugh in despair.
I am really suprised at this, I thought this is a rational place.


btw, I just find an interesting speech by Ahmed Yassin, the Hamas spiritual leader, to all of you who say those poor souls in the Hamas only seek peace and justice and 1967 lines:
Here it is, dating 18 February 2002, from Palestine Web

Some nice quotes:
"They are men who have been oustanding in bringing glory to their nation, who have not been discouraged by the nation's inability to succour them, but have continued their path of contribution and sacrifice. The Zionist gangs' brutality against them has only heightened their resolve. They seek martyrdom with the same intensity as the Jews seek to protect their lives."
"O sons of Islam everywhere, jihad is the individual duty of every Muslim, so that God's shari'ah may be established all over the earth, and so that you may liberate your homelands and yourselves from the hegemony of the USA and its Zionist allies. It is your battle and the outcome should be either victory or martyrdom."

I think this speaks for itself..
I really don't understand how you can support, or even understand Hamas..

 

[bruise]

Tipesh, change key terms and you could be talking about Christianity's attempts to propagandise.

I really don't see what's so difficult to understand, and I didn't notice any single poster supporting Hammas, quite the contrary. I don't think anyone here thinks the 'poor souls' in Hammas only seek peace and justice... Though they certainly think they are seeking justice.

As for the reference to "Jews" that you emboldened - most nationalists see differences in ethnic terms. In that respect they are the same as mainstream Jewish opinion, which continues to refer to 'Israeli Arabs' etc etc.

It's a pretty shabby (and pointless) debating technique to chatise others for holding characatured versions of views they don't actually hold.

 

[pcanning]

thanks a lot for comparing my writing to Mein Kampf 'Strategist'. are we going to all go back to the playground? As a gay man I find your comparison particularly odious.

"Guys, you are loosing your sense of reality."

with regards to the story about the Russian Israeli mafia - I wanted to know precisely where the holes were in this. Having seen more pictures from the scene the way the building looked it did not appear to me the result of a bomb outside (car bomb). The pictures 'proving' a car bomb in the original account were tiny and I couldn't see anything in them which identified them as being from that scene. As far as I could tell this wasn't pal originating propoganda. the author was 'Joe Vialls' who calls himself an 'investigator' and appears to be from the 'black helicopters' school of american conspiracy freaks.

from a quick check this conspiracy theory isn't making the mainstream arab press.

one thing we *don't have yet though is a 'martyr's video' so claims of responsibility (has an actual, official one been made by Hamas?) cannot be confirmed.

Tipesh: I am the one who has noted reports about Hamas changing it's position. I do not support Hamas. The Islamists are the same people who would put *me up against a wall (or worse) so no, not a supporter. But is it of *no significance? Did the reaction from ordinary Pals against their use of kids mean nothing? Cartoon painting of these people gets no-one nowhere and as for your comment that "I really don't understand how you can support, or even understand Hamas.." I'm sure that you would want *someone (Mossad/CIA/Foreign Office) to be trying to 'understand' Hamas.

just read more .. here we go again. this is becoming a dialogue with the deaf mr 'strategist'. once more I repeat ..

"The Israeli left has done EVERYTHING possible to make peace."

I assume you're referring to Barak and the famous 'offer of a state'. back we go to this not being a state on offer. Please try and explain how the offer was of a state? using references and examples would be a good idea.

"We have given back land, withdrawn troops, given PA police guns, and tried and tried and tried to make peace until we are blue in the face."

cannot say that I noticed many blue faces. once again, barak et al may have sold the Taba offer as being 'the ultimate' but it never ammounted to a state. you simply have to make real concessions and people like ben-elizar (the defense minister, whose latest proposal to Labour actually goes backwards from Taba) and Peres are the ones who need to prepare the likes of you for that.

"The Israeli left tried to make peace, but the Palestinians each time only wanted violence."

If your proof that 'the palestinians' only want violence is the suicide bombings then this really is a dialogue with the deaf. we might as well judge all Israeli jews by Kahane. I refer you to numerous opinion polls of Pals which show large majorities for peace.

you're speaking in slogans. It would greatly help - because I and I suspect most other pro-palestinians *want this dialogue and *are willing to see the other side - to hear more back up for your arguments. seriously. I want to understand what's forming your arguments. I am particularly interested in what is happening in Israeli politics from your perspective as I only get my impressions from Israeli online media.

Thank you for your comments Bruise. On your comments about the heated and emotional nature of this debate, there is a very interesting article in MotherJones about the way pro-Israeli Govt. jewish groups in America (as well as Pals) are behaving.
'The Politics of Victimhood.' http://www.mojones.com/web_exclusives/commentary/opinion/gitlin_may.html

"The fears are bad enough, but worse trouble comes when they crystallize into a politics predicated on victimhood. When the victim mentality takes the place of political argument, huge errors result. Feelings, whatever their sources, are neither moral nor political arguments. They do not justify tactics. The mind must always find a way to make sense."

 

[Streathamite]

Firstly, everywhere we look we see the Palestinian viewpoint being put across, and everywhere we look we see the Israeli viewpoint being ignored or belittled

was the strategtist's reply to my accusation of not having a fair, balanced and objective bone in his body.
and yet - cue fanfare-

Well, I just had a thought! If the pro-Israelis say that the news is highly anti-Israel, and the pro-Palestinians say the news is highly pro-Israel, then maybe, just maybe, the news is being, GOSH, GEE, OBJECTIVE!

and thenIn case you didn't realize, there are TWO sides to every story, and being objective is the take the merit from BOTH sides to come up with the possible truth.
You utter hypocrite! I have to admit that it takes some chutzpah to admit in the same thread that you are only interested in one side of the argument, and being a (presumably) unpaid propagandist for the israeli cause, and not engaging in fair, even-handed debate-and then to shriek "objectivity!" at other posters!
What nauseating double standards. I hope I have made it clear, in my many postings, at least that - whilst I believe the palestinian people have been cosmically shafted over the course of the past half-decade - there are two sides two this argument, and fault on both sides. Why don't you simply say what you really believe deep dow: "We are right. They are wrong. They are evil. Full stop."
Hoist by your own petard, mate.

 

[ali303]

this stern gang revival stuff is pretty off the planet. surely any jewish terrorist group would just bomb palestinian areas - far more likely to win israeli support and far easier. speaking of which a group called the 'jewish underground' has been putting posters in israeli settlements in the last few days.

this bomb is unusual - commercial explosives and possibly left in a bag or suitcase. this might explain why there's no video and hamas hasn't named the bomber.

but this bomb fits in with hamas motives - to bring on an attack on gaza and to get rid of arafat. in fact it could be said that sharon and hamas' short-term objectives are pretty identical in this respect. and hamas simply have to attack to show their followers they are still in the game.

btw - what the fuck is the term 'homicide bombers' all about? clearly its politically motivated. but its a vastly inferior term to suicide bombers as all terrorist bombs are homicidal by definition. am i missing the point?

 

[Streathamite]

Originally posted by Red Jezza

was the strategtist's reply to my accusation of not having a fair, balanced and objective bone in his body.
and yet - cue fanfare-

and thenyou said , and I quote "In case you didn't realize, there are TWO sides to every story, and being objective is the take the merit from BOTH sides to come up with the possible truth".
You utter hypocrite! I have to admit that it takes some chutzpah to admit in the same thread that you are only interested in one side of the argument, and being a (presumably) unpaid propagandist for the israeli cause, and not engaging in fair, even-handed debate-and then to shriek "objectivity!" at other posters!
What nauseating double standards. I hope I have made it clear, in my many postings, at least that - whilst I believe the palestinian people have been cosmically shafted over the course of the past half-decade - there are two sides two this argument, and fault on both sides. Why don't you simply say what you really believe deep dow: "We are right. They are wrong. They are evil. Full stop."
Hoist by your own petard, mate.

 

[Countonezero]

what a shame tha the stratagest cannot provide a resonable response thepal have you been to a refugee camp in the gaza strip or even seen pictures of the the pals queing up every day to go to work in israeli areas the methods in which tye are treated is one that can only be descirbe as comparably to the lining up of those taken to dacau around 1941 really the jews and there desendents the israelis (from brooklyn) should more than any other nation be able to understand the point of view of a race of peoples whose homes were occupied and there families murdered due to the holocaust..

Shoudl the strenght of feeling not be as it is in Ireland where both sides of the civilian population want peace or is it that you stragest truly belive that you should be in the occupied territoies.

I am truly at a loss as to how to debate this with you any further as you appear to have decide that we on the meesgae board have already wriiten off the israeli side of things. i know i haven't and that from reading and understanding what has been written it would not appear that anybody has but you seem to get this impression i respectfully withdraw freom the argument with ypou and ask that you pm me when you feel you can articulate in a more proactive fashion as oppossed to your current reactive one.

 

[thestrategist]

Have you removed the settlements (the illegal colonisation of an illegally occupied land)? Have you even stopped expanding them?

Criticising the Israeli left will not earn you any boy scout points. The settlements were used as a bargaining chip, which the Israelis were never able to use. Why? Because of Palestinian terror and bad faith negotiating by Arafat. The settlements would have been given up, but not unilaterally. Any Western leftist who criticises the Israeli left is exposing himself as anti-semitic. Sorry to be blunt.

You utter hypocrite! I have to admit that it takes some chutzpah to admit in the same thread that you are only interested in one side of the argument, and being a (presumably) unpaid propagandist for the israeli cause, and not engaging in fair, even-handed debate-and then to shriek "objectivity!" at other posters!

And it is highly hypocritical of you to criticise a democracy trying to defend itself from terror. What did the British do in WWII? They used terror bombing against Nazi Germany. Who supported it? Almost the entire British population. So why should another democracy in danger not defend itself. A democracy has the obligation to defend itself and its people.

I believe that I am the most objective person on these boards. I understand better than any of you how the Palestinians live and suffer. BUT I also understand better than any of you how the Israelis live and suffer.

You people are looking ONLY at one side of the story. You are stuck in a mentality that the state is always evil, that the weak must be defended, even when they are not democratic and commit terror. The world is NOT black and white. But on U75 it is blacker than black.

thanks a lot for comparing my writing to Mein Kampf 'Strategist'. are we going to all go back to the playground? As a gay man I find your comparison particularly odious.

My comment concerned Jock commenting on how objective your comments are. That is a joke. Your writing is extremely subjective, and blatantly one-sided. In that regards, it bears some resemblence to Mein Kampf.

You are losing it, big time. Because you can't deal head on with the 'well-informed and rational' arguments that pcanning uses you resort to paranoid insult. Surely you can see that all you are achieving is to undermine your own position?

No, not losing it, just getting more fed up with so-called leftists who attack Israel with unparelled furiosity while blatantly ignoring Israeli casualties, while blaming Israel for total responsibility in this conflict. These people are bigots, IMHO.

But, it was particularly odious of you to publish something that I withdrew some 10 minutes before your post.

 

[Countonezero]

Originally posted by thestrategist


Criticising the Israeli left will not earn you any boy scout points.

I wasn't going for any was trying to be objective as an arab answering some of you blanetly anti arab anit pal comments but as you are not capable of providing a reasonable or objective argument just in spouting bollocks like sort jungvolk natiolist from 1933 have you been so indoctranted that you are now incapable of seeing anthing other that others as arrgessors humm. could it be this jaded view which promotes this perpeutaion of violence. one quetiuon which bit of brokklyn were your faimly from orginally?? cos as rights tothe area which can be heriudartly traced back your are not in the middle east anymore than any other israelis its a fucking good job that the arabs are more peaceful than the is raleis otherwise their would have been a second holocaust before now









The settlements were used as a bargaining chip,


why does israel need to bargin dick they just seem to take what they want by force like some american support spoilt bratt.

which the Israelis were never able to use.


what a bummer and bargin you dont bargin with terroists according to your view so bargin what israelis arab/pal lives pal/israeli lives for more land you did bloody use them you build houses on them hows that not using them you speak the most bollocks i have come across i have meet neo nazis who speak more intellagable sense than you do even though i don't support it they at least keep a logiacl fucking argument up and flit like some scizophenic loon


Why?

cos you fucking great tanks don't need anything else just kick towel head butt.

Because of Palestinian terror

Pals have terror cos there are isralius trying to kill them every 5 mins

and bad faith


brought about by dealing with 'bad' israeli's

negotiating by Arafat.

when has israel ever truly negtioate and not just issued demands that araft has to bow down to like a some uncle tom caracture going to his masser and begging for aid .

The settlements would have been given up,

would they ?

but not unilaterally.

no no they ould welll done for contradicting your self inthe same sentence thus proving your own duplicitus nature. its a fucking good job that you don;t negtioate between the israelis and the pals or this could cause alsorts of confusing and potentially life threatening situations eh?

Any Western leftist who criticises the Israeli left is exposing himself as anti-semitic.

any moran that make stupdi statements that if they don't like what i'm saying smells, because they do. (kids in school have more constuctive arguments than this)

Sorry to be blunt.

so am i but really you ahve no idea how to be blunt, but i guess this post is certainly an eye opener for you isn't it . well maybe you have just for the first time learnt something form an arab not that you'd admit it !!!!

And it is highly hypocritical of you to criticise a democracy trying to defend itself from terror.

how can you possilbey say this and then defend israel and not palestine source for the goose is good enough for the gander you one side arse.

What did the British do in WWII?

died fought nearly elected the black shrits decided to defend it's self rather than invade a forgine contry and kill all the natives one by one go on compare israeli occupation of the territoies as the same as alrge industrialsed war fleet marching in and killing you go on. you see if you had compared israeli actions to germany in ww2 then you would have had what we call a logical argument but compare yourself to the victims when you are the arrgesors and frankly you have what i like to call amonumentla orwellian double think

They used terror bombing against Nazi Germany.

no the history of bombing in germnay was like this

the english provided funds for the french to bobm the germans not terror bobming as you calim with you boozy logic but to liberate and inhabited contry . the bobming which started the blitz iwas caused by a lost german henkal 111 releasing its bobms to gain hieght and save fuel as it deveated from the map and got terribley lost in the fogg the bomb s that wr relesased landed on london and about 6 dya later the return volly was lauched had it nbeen a clear night ther would have been no blitz period in the ww2 nothing could be compared to the actions where israel got jumpy and then fough t the 5 day the yom kippur war and the 7 day war to reneforce its poistion . notihning forgivres satilia or sabria and as for your calims that nothing happened in jenhin i guess wee'll find out on mon as a film crew who sercetly filmed the whole godam thing are boradcasting in the uk . wont we.

Who supported it? Almost the entire British population.

for the reasons above just make awell reasoned aregument ok or don't bother

So why should another democracy in danger not defend itself. A democracy has the obligation to defend itself and its people.

it does but not to wantonly attack for no reason


next.


I believe that I am the most objective person on these boards.

ah a modiset and rational satement so do most people that psot other wise we would post would we ??? have you taken cocaine perhaps this god complex is very familler one with a coke problem thats it isn't it you a coke problem oh i can calm down now just stop doing the coke and you'll be fine you find [people arguee with you less.


I understand better than any of you how the Palestinians live and suffer.

do you fuck


BUT I also understand better than any of you how the Israelis live and suffer.

and are the most baised human i have eever had the misfortune of coming across.

You people are looking ONLY at one side of the story.


hello is that the pot hi this is the kettle rumor would have it that you are well black

You are stuck in a mentality that the state is always evil,

it is

that the weak must be defended,

yes they must be you utter fool what are you wittering about just shut up if you can say anything sesnable your as objective as a nazi is a supporter of gay rights ie fuck all.

even when they are not democratic and commit terror.

ther not democratiic cos there weak cos ther terroists cos you say so what doe sthis sentence mean other than more nonsense.

The world is NOT black and white.


no colour and your idea is that life can only be seen through your eyes or not at all how terribly arrogant .


But on U75 it is blacker than black.

you don't argree with me so you must be wrong nah nah nah nah nah na

My comment concerned Jock commenting on how objective your comments are. That is a joke. Your writing is extremely subjective, and blatantly one-sided.



pot ccalling kettle yes i thin you forgot some thing oh yes yes i did

what a nutter right thats it im unsubscribing to your endless . end of

 

[pcanning]

Any Western leftist who criticises the Israeli left is exposing himself as anti-semitic.

and any IDF supporter who uses serious words like 'anti-semitism' casually to people who've been aware of what racism actually is for quite some time now thank you very much had better back up his petty attacks or withdraw them.

i'm beginning to regard this claim itself as racist. it goes along with 'europeans this' or 'europeans that' like we're all the same and all nasty fascists or quislings or appeasers or whatever else bad word you can dig out and throw at us in your 'holier-than-thou' manner.

for one thing this board must be one of very few places on the web where a reasoned debate is happening about this conflict and for another there are many people who may broadly share your opinions who do not crawl into the gutter to defend them.

we are having a dialogue here 'strategist'. quite frankly if you continue to throw meaningful insults (as opposed to 'cunt' etc.) around in such a cheap way and - in fact - cheapen the fight against anti-semitism, then I for one will just ignore your posts entirely and encourage everyone else to ignore them as well.

 

[pcanning]

My comment concerned Jock commenting on how objective your comments are. That is a joke. Your writing is extremely subjective, and blatantly one-sided. In that regards, it bears some resemblence to Mein Kampf.

[re-edited to]homophobic prick[and]end of it. no more responses.

having just had a good laugh watching Frasier, no! you are not going to drag me in, make me angry or stir any reaction.

for the benefit of the rest of the board who may not be aware there was a holocaust in germany of lesbians and gays.

you will find this in the holocaust museum in washington but not in aushwitz itself or in many other places which claim to tell the story of the holocaust.

that's why i got so emotional.