whoa they've jsut blown up tel aviv

[Loki]

"Loki, that was the point I was making.

We don't know on either side and there is too much biased to see if anything is true or not."

I agree with you about bias, in the sense that it's difficult to believe everything on both sides of a really heated debate

But at the same time I believe from my readings of the situation, that Israel has perpretrated some pretty gross and unnecessary violations against humanity, by trained troops no less whose actions were sanctioned by the Israeli state, which I personally find an unacceptable state of affairs.

That article I posted was by the BBC, which is about as trusted a news source as can be found, I dunno what else to try!

(edit to remove a mass of spurious commas)

 

[Elspeth Symrivi]

The Israelis are wrong, the Israelis are right, the Palestinians are wrong, the Palestinians are right. It is just that simple.

This debate should really end now.

;>

 

[grasshopper]

Return to my point about the conflict never ending.

No answer, until you have addressed the original point I posed when I joined this thread; which was

Elspeth, I have read your posts on this thread, and on others, and the major impression I get is that you think that authority, in whatever guise, is always correct. And that because they are correct, they are justified in whatever action they deem necessary.

So the question remains. Whether or not you think the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is self-perpetuating, you obviously see the IDF as the institution of *Authority* in the region.

So what justifies the actions of the Israelis "in defence of their homeland", over the actions of the Palestinians "over the defence of their homeland"?

I'll be amazed if you have a convincing answer which fully addresses the justifications from both sides

 

[Loki]

Originally posted by Elspeth Symrivi
The Israelis are wrong, the Israelis are right, the Palestinians are wrong, the Palestinians are right. It is just that simple.

This debate should really end now.

;>

Naw, it shouldn't! Shit happens when good men stand by and do nothing...

 

[Vixiha]

I am for & against both sides in a way.

I am against Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory & against the murder of stone throwers & people who refused to leave their homes & were subsequently crushed beneath the rubble.

But I am for Israel's demand that the suicide bombings be stopped immediately.

I am against Palestinians bombing Israeli civilians.

But I am for them defending their homes & property.

Elzpeth, you are welcome to leave the debate if you so choose, but as long as the conflict continues, the debate should never end.

 

[Elspeth Symrivi]

Grasshopper, look back, I have answered that question far too many times and that others in this thread can easily see where I stand.

This wasn't a true debate to begin with, it was only bad mouthing certain groups. Neither group is right, it is only pointless to keep going on and on about it.

"Good men"? I doubt there are any here or even close to here.

;>

 

[grasshopper]

Grasshopper, look back, I have answered that question far too many times and that others in this thread can easily see where I stand.

Um...where? But I'll admit it's not hard to see where you stand. On the side of AUTHORITY, in whatever guise, whoever has the bigger hand to slap with. Hmmmm.....nice.

I'll be amazed if you have a convincing answer which fully addresses the justifications from both sides

I guess I'll not be amazed tonight then Elspeth

I guess you're right. All these pathetic, whinging whining victims should shut up and accept being beaten, shot, and made homeless without a whimper. Because it would never have happened if they weren't there in the first place - yeah.

Elspeth - you have a very small, self-centered mind

 

[Elspeth Symrivi]

Grasshopper, I have said many times that neither side is in the right and neither side deserve the land. There wont ever be peace.

Right now, at this point in the thread, I am just wanting Israel to be nuked so there is no more problems, I have a head ache.

 

[grasshopper]

Ok - so this thread is ended. I see you are defending your same (if you were there - you were automatically guilty by association stance) assertion over on the General Board, where you defend the Authorities as regarding the beating of a 16 year old, by four police officers.

I'm not surprised you have a headache. Trying to justify authoritatian brutality is a full time job for some people. To try and do it for a hobby, and spread yourself so thinly must be a nightmare

 

[Elspeth Symrivi]

Grasshopper, remember, you ar etrying to justify rioting and suicide bombing to a higher degree then I ever am justifying the right to self defense of police and of a society.

 

[grasshopper]

Elspeth - nowhere in any of my posts ever have I tried to justify rioting and suicide bombing. Yet you tell me I have. I suggest you point out where I have done that, so that I can apologise to you for being a hypocrite.

Of course, when you can't point that out, you'll be apologising to me for insinuating something that wasn't the case.

 

[Countonezero]

Originally posted by Elspeth Symrivi
Grasshopper, I have said many times that neither side is in the right and neither side deserve the land. There wont ever be peace.

Right now, at this point in the thread, I am just wanting Israel to be nuked so there is no more problems, I have a head ache.

ok we have to look at your so far suprious trolling on this thread we should sut up because you have decide so? nah sorry it don't work like that maybe if the person whoim started the thread asked i'd consider it but once its on a forum it's then a public domain or at least a memebers domain any how so therefore it will run as long as it is kept alive by the members.

ok secondly any attempts to speak with authority about a subject that you obviously have littlle or no idea about is unwise as those on the boardss who do will have you on auto flame immediately. Whilst we all have strong convictions on here we all usually have to back up our comments otherwise when they are cross examined, which will happen on a debate board, then they will not stand up the only thing they then provide is not enlightenment but the original posters ignoreence . i don't belive that aside form the blatnetyl bigoted opions that you and the strat post on here that most of the posters have a pro apl or israeli stand point i would say most people are humanitain on the board. that is to say that they are upset at the killings on both sides the emotive subject here is the historic one the intial 5 dya war the yom kippur warr the 7 day war the atrosities in chatial and sabria , the intial killings by suidcide bombers in the us which cause the state of israel to be considered let alone be ocncepted and formed. the pressure yand consent that you atribute soley to the english was actually applied from the states whom threaten to remove the funding form the uk unless they accepted and borkered the dela to set up the state of israel in lands that had previously been an independent arab state. the fact that it was a european war which ended up withthe divison of the middle east is to the eternal shame of every western contry . you see this is by no menas a terribly descriptive (and slightly baised arab opinion at that) however it shows a degree of knowlege about the history of this region and the conflict which this thread pertains which none of your post have so far expressed i am sorry to have to say this but int this cas eyou have disp[lay a painully inadiquaet knowlege of a subject and expressed opions based on shallow reasoning. it is not an intellectial or even an impassioned method of argument and certianly only exposes your own lak of knowlege. i accept that areas of this potted history is flawed and hat other on the board may well be able to update those accuracies however... i don't see this debate as being a competion to see who is more right. more i see it as a place to unite to try and find common gorund to move this forward . you never know at some point we may have to make a decsion that will ultimatly influence the outcome in this situation. = if we do not speak out when came for the others who will speak out when they come for us?

 

[Elspeth Symrivi]

Grasshopper-

"Trying to justify authoritatian brutality is a full time job for some people."

No, I am not. I am justify defense from a country being attacked by suicide bombers and the such. Since you attacked me for that, then that means you are against my arguements, therefore, unless you wish to put forth your own arguements in why Palestinians should not do such suicide bombings, you are for them.

Countonezero-

Babling for any reason? There is no debate going on here, it is mostly dead, yet you have to bring it up without actually putting anything there.

"ok secondly any attempts to speak with authority about a subject that you obviously have littlle or no idea about"

You are not the authority on this subject and neither of these people in here. You know very little about what is going on. You are spoon fed information, it is just that simple. I have only stated that neither side deserves the land and that war would never end.

" i don't belive that aside form the blatnetyl bigoted opions that you"

You are the bigot if you call me one. I have posted no bigotry, yet you have over and over if you even try to say I am a bigot. Never have I attacked a race or culture for that. I have only defended a people's right to defend themselves. If you can't comprehend that, too bad.

The rest of your post is pure nonsense. It shows that clearly you have not read any of the posts in here. Try reading the other threads on this matter also.

PC actually puts forth an argument unlike you.

 

[thestrategist]

Elspeth - go away, you are not helping our cause by giving stupid responses and easily rebutted arguments

 

[Revolting]

> PC actually puts forth an argument unlike you.

Did I misread that ?

> PC actually puts forth an argument unlike you.

No, apparently not.

Funny, because when he did put try to put forward an argument, you treated what he said the same as you treated everyone else, ie. you simply ranted about gibberish and replayed your stuck record

> I have only defended a people's right to defend themselves

An occupying power cannot, by definition, be defending itself.
Do you accept that the Germans were defending themselves in Poland, Russia and France. After all, whatever differences those people had with German military policy, there is no way Germany could accept violent attacks on its troops.

 

[Countonezero]

hum mehtinks that you are without hope ah yes the correct term is hopeless
yo qutoe my own post dear you need to back up your comments somehting you have failed to do to dismiss ones poosts as it contreavenes your belifs its to say the least purile to say the least.

the blatewntly bigotted opions you profess are as follows :-


Right now, at this point in the thread, I am just wanting Israel to be nuked so there is no more problems,

,

"Good men"? I doubt there are any here or even close to here. 9 admitly this is just pure embitter sexism rather than just bigotry but hey were not point score just provideing examples )

'

The Jews were guarenteed that land by a collective group of nations after WWII, the Palestinians were guarenteed it by the Imperial British government. You want to talka bout who is responsible, go to those two sources and argue it out.

and uninformed:-

unless you can point out each and every specific incident in which the Israeli's "illegally" took each acre of land, then you have no real point.

,

As you can see, Israelis are not going around murdering people. They only defend themselves from attack.

,


You are obvious one who believes that self defense is not enough reason for Israeli military personel to kill others. You feel that the Israelis should just stand there and die. That is pathetic.

You are supporting the attacks of innocent people with your lies. Why don't you grow up and see what is real sometime?

or the questionable

First of all, I am a born citizen. That is enough. Second, I am not a fan of genocide, however, you are.

nothing states that grass hopper is a supporter of geoncide, secondly are you a born citezen of the occupied terriores ? if so i question whether you can be a citezen off an occupied land dispite you patriotism sorry that find debating with an arab so distastfull or that you assume that i would no nothing of what gtoes on. i have been supporting the israeli ciziens for some time as withall inocents whom are killed ask the stra he will concide that even though he may dis agree with my points and that we fundametlay differ i have never been anything but objective. if even your co horrts are agreed that you are less than effective at making your point (not that it should be kbow strat that i have ever agreed with you )

the program currently on channel 4 which is very objective it shows footage of the happenings at jehin it shows a certain amount which has certianly been covered up by the idf it also revealled that there were suicide bomber whom came form that area and that they felt it was a resukltr of isralei actionbs rather than to provoke them. strat ?? your thoughts ??

 

[Elspeth Symrivi]

Revolting-

Reread my posts to PC, I have far more tolerance for him then others.

"An occupying power cannot, by definition, be defending itself."

Oh? So explain any revolution? French Revolution, the ones in charge were defending themselves, as with the Russian Revolution and so on.

"Do you accept that the Germans were defending themselves in Poland, Russia and France. "

That would only related to Israel taking places like the Gaza strip. We are not talking about that. We are talking about set boundaries and a nation in turmoil because of countless fighting and suicide bombing which has brought the Israel army to defend it's citizens.

 

[Countonezero]

elspeth the suicide bomber have taking the fight to the heart of the community, just as the occupation has done in gaza etc

so cassa mei cassa

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

According to Elspeth...

We are talking about set boundaries

Care to draw us a map?

 

[pcanning]

"PC actually puts forth an argument unlike you."

one thing you keep saying which i don't understand is that the war will never end. i stated before that there have been long periods of peace before in the region (meaning that there's no reason that there couldn't be again), so i thought I'd track down a timeline. it's below.

Source: BBC

333 BC: Alexander the Great's conquest brought the area under Greek rule.
165 BC: A revolt in Judea established the last independent Jewish state of ancient times.
63 BC: The Jewish state, Judea, was incorporated into the Roman province of Palestine
70 AD: A revolt against Roman rule was put down by the Emperor Titus and the Second Temple was destroyed. This marks the beginning of the Jewish Diaspora, or dispersion.
118-138 AD: During the Roman Emperor Hadrian's rule, Jews were initially allowed to return to Jerusalem, but - after another Jewish revolt in 133 - the city was completely destroyed and its people banished and sold into slavery.
638 AD: Conquest by Arab Muslims ended Byzantine rule (the successor to Roman rule in the East). The second caliph of Islam, Omar, built a mosque at the site of what is now the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem in the early years of the 8th Century. Apart from the age of the Crusaders (1099-1187), the region remained under Muslim rule until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in the 20th Century.

Note the 13 hundred years of peace.

We then had a little bit more peace until the 1930s. The BBC describes this period thus:

At the time of World War I the area was ruled by the Turkish Ottoman empire. Turkish control ended when Arab forces backed by Britain drove out the Ottomans.

Britain occupied the region at the end of the war in 1918 and was assigned as the mandatory power by the League of Nations on 25 April 1920.

During this period of change, three key pledges were made.

In 1916 the British Commissioner in Egypt, Sir Henry McMahon, had promised the Arab leadership post-war independence for former Ottoman Arab provinces.

However, at the same time, the secret Sykes-Picot Agreement between war victors, Britain and France, divided the region under their joint control.

Then in 1917, the British Foreign Minister Arthur Balfour committed Britain to work towards “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, in a letter to leading Zionist Lord Rothschild. It became known as the Balfour Declaration.

The Zionist project of the 1920s and 1930s saw hundreds of thousands of Jews emigrating to British Mandate Palestine, provoking unrest in the Arab community.

In 1922, a British census showed the Jewish population had risen to about 11% of Palestine's 750,000 inhabitants. More than 300,000 immigrants arrived in the next 15 years.

Zionist-Arab antagonism boiled over into violent clashes in August 1929 when 133 Jews were killed by Palestinians and 110 Palestinians died at the hands of the British police.

Arab discontent again exploded into widespread civil disobedience during a general strike in 1936. By this time, the militant Zionist group Irgun Zvai Leumi was orchestrating attacks on Palestinian and British targets with the aim of "liberating" Palestine and Transjordan (modern-day Jordan) by force.

In July 1937, Britain, in a Royal Commission headed by former Secretary of State for India, Lord Peel, recommended partitioning the land into a Jewish state (about a third of British Mandate Palestine, including Galilee and the coastal plain) and an Arab one.

Palestinian and Arab representatives rejected this and demanded an end to immigration and the safeguarding of a single unified state with protection of minority rights. Violent opposition continued until 1938 when it was crushed with reinforcements from the UK.