T
thestrategist
Guest
What did I say that was the slightest bit homophobic?
Please don't swear, it's so childish.
My child is doing pretty well thanks.
whoa they've jsut blown up tel aviv
- Thread starter Countonezero
- Start date
What did I say that was the slightest bit homophobic?
Please don't swear, it's so childish.
My child is doing pretty well thanks.
T
thestrategist
Guest
hah, I'm watching Frasier as well!
T
thestrategist
Guest
the problem is, you do ignore my posts. you respond to them, but you don't really read them. how else can you explain calling me a Sharon supporter, bigot, or homophobic?
I was not criticising the Israeli left in that statement. I was challenging your statement that they have done [everything] for peace. THEY CLEARLY HAVE NOT.
Further more, ending the occupation [unilaterally] is the Israeli left position as far as I am concerned. Perhaps what you call left, I would refer to as centre-right.
Now, can I have my Boy Scout points (and badge) back please?
Lots of love
Abu Arak.
PS. You seem to whinge about anti-Semitism every time you lose an argument. Sorry to have to break it to you bluntly old chum. But there you go; you seem to make a habit of it.
T
thestrategist
Guest
They tried since 1992 (and for years before that).
Everytime they got close to some sort of agreement, there would be a bombing (perhaps ordered by Arafat).
They already undertook many unilateral actions, but Arafat expected to get EVERYTHING on a platter, while using terror as a bargaining chip.
So, the Israeli left tried EVERYTHING, but got NOWHERE.
If you look at the other thread, I give 9 points why I think that there is anti-semitism here.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=8421
I am not loosing arguements. You are not reading my messages with an objective attitude.
I wasn't sure if I was included in the famous 9 points or not. I shall respond
Sorry, still sounds like you are losing the argument. It really is very easy. It boils down to some people (like myself for example) think that all murder is fundamentally wrong, which is a good philosophical position to start from. Other people, (like your very good self for example) think that murder is excused if the murderer was wearing an IDF uniform, which is a dodgy foundation for an argument.
Because of this weakness in your argument, you essentially have to [prove], more to yourself than to anyone else really, that a) The Israeli left have done everything possible and b) anyone who disagrees with you is anti-Semitic.
Unfortunately for you, to abhor murder is not anti-Semitic, it is just human. Do unto others as thou duthst unto thyself and that sort of thing.
E
Entropos
Guest
I've parsed the lies and all the distortion...
...and found the solution. As I've tried to follow and learn about the situation in israel I've been continuosly dismayed. It seems that there is little that I can hang my hat on and call true. Well, at least true by my standards. My normal methods of corroboration are drowned in a sea of opinion and fact and history shuffling. Palestinians for peace, Israeli terrorists, Oppression, Invasion, Suicide, Homicide, Murder etc etc..
Exasperated, I just about gave up on trying to form an opinion. That is until I decided to look at who was killing who. Throw out the HOW they kill. What methods they use are immaterial in this test. The simple question is: Who Are They Trying To Kill? Each side has been consistent in their choices of targets. Each side has picked the type of humans they are willing to kill in the name of their cause.
I think that is a very telling thing to look at. Who we decide to kill says alot about who we are.
Those fighting for the Palestinian cause have chosen to kill men, women and children indiscriminately. When they HAVE been discriminating, they've chosen places young people gather.
The Israelis choose to kill men suspected of being involved with the indiscriminate killing of Israeli men, women and children. When they HAVE been indiscriminate it has been by accident of pursuit or incompetence. At no time have they deliberately tried to kill groups of men, women and children.
I think that given the state of argument and revisionism that's the best I can do.
...and found the solution. As I've tried to follow and learn about the situation in israel I've been continuosly dismayed. It seems that there is little that I can hang my hat on and call true. Well, at least true by my standards. My normal methods of corroboration are drowned in a sea of opinion and fact and history shuffling. Palestinians for peace, Israeli terrorists, Oppression, Invasion, Suicide, Homicide, Murder etc etc..
Exasperated, I just about gave up on trying to form an opinion. That is until I decided to look at who was killing who. Throw out the HOW they kill. What methods they use are immaterial in this test. The simple question is: Who Are They Trying To Kill? Each side has been consistent in their choices of targets. Each side has picked the type of humans they are willing to kill in the name of their cause.
I think that is a very telling thing to look at. Who we decide to kill says alot about who we are.
Those fighting for the Palestinian cause have chosen to kill men, women and children indiscriminately. When they HAVE been discriminating, they've chosen places young people gather.
The Israelis choose to kill men suspected of being involved with the indiscriminate killing of Israeli men, women and children. When they HAVE been indiscriminate it has been by accident of pursuit or incompetence. At no time have they deliberately tried to kill groups of men, women and children.
I think that given the state of argument and revisionism that's the best I can do.
E
Entropos
Guest
Er, yes. You are right.
Your comment is confusing. I search for the meaning in it until my eyes drift together and cling to each other, hopelessly lost. Your comment leaves me crosseyed.
Your comment is confusing. I search for the meaning in it until my eyes drift together and cling to each other, hopelessly lost. Your comment leaves me crosseyed.
Abu Arak
I believe Abu Arak has confused killing with the protection of one's own state. Israeli soldiers are not order to kill Palestinians, if they were, then there would be few Palestinians left. They are ordered to stop those who act in terroristic ways, those that are there to harm the Israelis.
This falls under the basic policing power that all legitimate countries have. Israel has a duty to protect it's people, this means that having to execute those that mean harm in such ways are appropiate. This is not murder, it is defense of the state. When you attack the people of a state, you attack the state itself. When you attack the state itself, the state must protect itself or perish. Therefore, these people act in self-defense.
Self defense is not murder. You are not a "killer" if you commit self defense. It is only natural to do such. When you are attacked, it is your basic right to protect yourself.
Murder itself is fundamentally wrong, it denies those of the basic rights given to all humans. However, once murder is commited, the basic rights are stripped away. Here in lies why the Israelis are ethically correct.
Now about there being peace, it will not happen any time soon. I am sure that Pakistan and India (another British doing) wuld probably fix itself far easier than this.
I believe Abu Arak has confused killing with the protection of one's own state. Israeli soldiers are not order to kill Palestinians, if they were, then there would be few Palestinians left. They are ordered to stop those who act in terroristic ways, those that are there to harm the Israelis.
This falls under the basic policing power that all legitimate countries have. Israel has a duty to protect it's people, this means that having to execute those that mean harm in such ways are appropiate. This is not murder, it is defense of the state. When you attack the people of a state, you attack the state itself. When you attack the state itself, the state must protect itself or perish. Therefore, these people act in self-defense.
Self defense is not murder. You are not a "killer" if you commit self defense. It is only natural to do such. When you are attacked, it is your basic right to protect yourself.
Murder itself is fundamentally wrong, it denies those of the basic rights given to all humans. However, once murder is commited, the basic rights are stripped away. Here in lies why the Israelis are ethically correct.
Now about there being peace, it will not happen any time soon. I am sure that Pakistan and India (another British doing) wuld probably fix itself far easier than this.
elspeth, welcome to a newbie. you may find your views countered here but i hope you persist.
with reference to your main point about self-defence, can you see this argument from the ordinary palestinians perspective (not hamas et al)? they feel that they are defending themselves aginst israeli soldiers, who are not all angels.
with reference to your main point about self-defence, can you see this argument from the ordinary palestinians perspective (not hamas et al)? they feel that they are defending themselves aginst israeli soldiers, who are not all angels.
pcanning-
There are two forces for the Palestinians. Those that work for the PLO and those that are terrorists/extremists/rioters. Those of the first category are legitimate. They do not go out and start killing random people. Those of the latter are commiting crimes against both sides. They may fight in the name of an idea, but they are not true to it.
There are two forces for the Palestinians. Those that work for the PLO and those that are terrorists/extremists/rioters. Those of the first category are legitimate. They do not go out and start killing random people. Those of the latter are commiting crimes against both sides. They may fight in the name of an idea, but they are not true to it.
Eslpeth, I've said this before, but Israel is the occupying power, and therefore cannot be acting in self-defence.
An occupying power has no right of self defence, neither legally nor morally.
An occupied people do have the right of resistance, both legally and morally.
The occupier cannot prescribe to its victims, how it would like them to go about resisting it.
> Israeli soldiers are not order to kill Palestinians, if they were,
> then there would be few Palestinians left.
Israel has always killed and destroyed and oppressed as much as it can get away with, given the fact that for all its military supremacy, it still relies on outside support for its viability - financial, economic, etc.
An occupying power has no right of self defence, neither legally nor morally.
An occupied people do have the right of resistance, both legally and morally.
The occupier cannot prescribe to its victims, how it would like them to go about resisting it.
> Israeli soldiers are not order to kill Palestinians, if they were,
> then there would be few Palestinians left.
Israel has always killed and destroyed and oppressed as much as it can get away with, given the fact that for all its military supremacy, it still relies on outside support for its viability - financial, economic, etc.
elspeth: 2 forces. Those that work for the PLO and those that are terrorists/extremists/rioters.
hmm, it's a bit greyer than that. for example, the 'rioters' - do you mean stone throwers? - were (not many 'riots' at the moment) mainly kids. are they forever put on one side of a dividing line? in the 'bad' basket for all time? my impression is that there are a hardcore of mainly Islamists whose support waxes and wanes. I wouldn't put most 'rioters' in this camp just as I wouldn't put a Palestinian man with an ancient rifle trying to defend his property (aka a 'gunman').
hmm, it's a bit greyer than that. for example, the 'rioters' - do you mean stone throwers? - were (not many 'riots' at the moment) mainly kids. are they forever put on one side of a dividing line? in the 'bad' basket for all time? my impression is that there are a hardcore of mainly Islamists whose support waxes and wanes. I wouldn't put most 'rioters' in this camp just as I wouldn't put a Palestinian man with an ancient rifle trying to defend his property (aka a 'gunman').
First of all, "kids" is a generic title for an age group, you cannot generalize by age. You, however, can generalize by actions.
If they are truly supporting the PLO, then they are not going out of their way to attack Israeli army soldiers. They stay and follow orders of the PLO. The PLO does not order massive chaos, rioting or suicide bombing. Those are terrorists acts done by outside organizations.
Unlike what people will try to tell you, there are no innocents defending their homes. They are only political radicals trying to further their own agenda. Innocents do not care about either side and would rather keep their own home and their own government. They would want no war nor change. Only radicals go out and cause such distruction as what is happening.
If they are truly supporting the PLO, then they are not going out of their way to attack Israeli army soldiers. They stay and follow orders of the PLO. The PLO does not order massive chaos, rioting or suicide bombing. Those are terrorists acts done by outside organizations.
Unlike what people will try to tell you, there are no innocents defending their homes. They are only political radicals trying to further their own agenda. Innocents do not care about either side and would rather keep their own home and their own government. They would want no war nor change. Only radicals go out and cause such distruction as what is happening.
you have some interesting ideas elspeth. can I ask where you are posting from (which context you're in this debate from)?
correct me if i'm wrong but the people who we're talking about - basically the mass of ordinary palestinians, not signed up to hamas, who are being attacked by the IDF would be going against the PLO if they defended themselves? when has the PLO said this? and what exactly is the PLO here/ is it arafat alone or something wider?
correct me if i'm wrong but the people who we're talking about - basically the mass of ordinary palestinians, not signed up to hamas, who are being attacked by the IDF would be going against the PLO if they defended themselves? when has the PLO said this? and what exactly is the PLO here/ is it arafat alone or something wider?
when you home is invaded, your property stolen or destroyed, members of your family killed, your business ended, your fields or groves trashed, basic services denied ... are you not defending? need I go on?
I have gone through every news agency, the most left and the most right, israeli supporters and palestinian supporters and not once have I see the Israeli military destroy property or kill those that did not deserve it in some way.
For instance, the one that caused the passover explosion had his home destroyed. The Israeli army went to great lengths in order to evacuate hundreds of people from the housing complex and then destroy it as punishment for those that support him. It was not a ending of life to the innocent. It was only justice for what had happened.
Innocents are not involved here. It is terrorists vs trained soldiers. There are no innocents running out and defending there land nor their property.
There will always be this problem. I feel that none of these people deserve Israel. If I had it my way, it would be UN neutral territory, with no official government of either race, where the world should rule it.
Why? Because three large religions, Judism, Christianity and Islam have been started there and it is religiously sacred to a huge number of people in the world.
That is where I personally stand.
For instance, the one that caused the passover explosion had his home destroyed. The Israeli army went to great lengths in order to evacuate hundreds of people from the housing complex and then destroy it as punishment for those that support him. It was not a ending of life to the innocent. It was only justice for what had happened.
Innocents are not involved here. It is terrorists vs trained soldiers. There are no innocents running out and defending there land nor their property.
There will always be this problem. I feel that none of these people deserve Israel. If I had it my way, it would be UN neutral territory, with no official government of either race, where the world should rule it.
Why? Because three large religions, Judism, Christianity and Islam have been started there and it is religiously sacred to a huge number of people in the world.
That is where I personally stand.
Elspeth, I have read your posts on this thread, and on others, and the major impression I get is that you think that authority, in whatever guise, is always correct. And that because they are correct, they are justified in whatever action they deem necessary.
Would I be correct in assuming this?
Would I be correct in assuming this?
I believe that a legimate government has the ability to defend itself from terrorist actions. This does not mean genocide, which is clearly not happening in this situation. It is the Israeli government defending itself from individual groups that sole purpose is to remove that government.
> not once have I see the Israeli military destroy property or kill those that did not deserve it in some way.
Enough said. You're now on my ignore list.
> I feel that none of these people deserve Israel. If I had it my way,
> it would be UN neutral territory, with no official government of either race, where the world should rule it.
What have you done to deserve wherever you live, apart from being such an obvious fan of genocide.
> Because three large religions, Judism, Christianity and Islam have been started there
> and it is religiously sacred to a huge number of people in the world.
Actually, only Christianity started there, but Palestine doesn't belong to any religion, it belongs to the Palestinians.
In addition, since Palestinian Christians are Orthodox (with very few exceptions), and are heirs to the Byzantine tradition, I don't see that Western Christians have any connection to the holy sites there.
Enough said. You're now on my ignore list.
> I feel that none of these people deserve Israel. If I had it my way,
> it would be UN neutral territory, with no official government of either race, where the world should rule it.
What have you done to deserve wherever you live, apart from being such an obvious fan of genocide.
> Because three large religions, Judism, Christianity and Islam have been started there
> and it is religiously sacred to a huge number of people in the world.
Actually, only Christianity started there, but Palestine doesn't belong to any religion, it belongs to the Palestinians.
In addition, since Palestinian Christians are Orthodox (with very few exceptions), and are heirs to the Byzantine tradition, I don't see that Western Christians have any connection to the holy sites there.
"I have gone through every news agency, the most left and the most right, israeli supporters and palestinian supporters and not once have I see the Israeli military destroy property or kill those that did not deserve it in some way."
Well here's just one teensy example:
Palestine's lost children (BBC report, April 2001)
"The death toll in the Palestinian territories and Israel is rising steadily. Many of the dead are Palestinian children.
Palestinians say that in the past week Israeli troops have shot dead four of their children."
Well here's just one teensy example:
Palestine's lost children (BBC report, April 2001)
"The death toll in the Palestinian territories and Israel is rising steadily. Many of the dead are Palestinian children.
Palestinians say that in the past week Israeli troops have shot dead four of their children."
"Palestinians have said..."
So that makes it truth? I could say that both sides are going around raping anything in sight, and where is the truth in that. All you do is spew propaganda without evidence, no facts, only fiction.
As from the website:
"But it claimed it was responding to shooting from the Palestinian side, directed towards a Jewish settlement. "
As you can see, Israelis are not going around murdering people. They only defend themselves from attack.
If you cannot comprehend that, then you are ignorant supporters of something you know nothing about.
Now for revolting:
You have been on my ignore for quite some time because of your lies.
"What have you done to deserve wherever you live, apart from being such an obvious fan of genocide. "
First of all, I am a born citizen. That is enough. Second, I am not a fan of genocide, however, you are. You are obvious one who believes that self defense is not enough reason for Israeli military personel to kill others. You feel that the Israelis should just stand there and die. That is pathetic.
You are supporting the attacks of innocent people with your lies. Why don't you grow up and see what is real sometime?
So that makes it truth? I could say that both sides are going around raping anything in sight, and where is the truth in that. All you do is spew propaganda without evidence, no facts, only fiction.
As from the website:
"But it claimed it was responding to shooting from the Palestinian side, directed towards a Jewish settlement. "
As you can see, Israelis are not going around murdering people. They only defend themselves from attack.
If you cannot comprehend that, then you are ignorant supporters of something you know nothing about.
Now for revolting:
You have been on my ignore for quite some time because of your lies.
"What have you done to deserve wherever you live, apart from being such an obvious fan of genocide. "
First of all, I am a born citizen. That is enough. Second, I am not a fan of genocide, however, you are. You are obvious one who believes that self defense is not enough reason for Israeli military personel to kill others. You feel that the Israelis should just stand there and die. That is pathetic.
You are supporting the attacks of innocent people with your lies. Why don't you grow up and see what is real sometime?
I will accept that insofar as the *legitimate* goverments borders go. Can you not see that to take this point seriously then, that you would have to accept that the Israeli settlers were taking land illegally, and that the IDF actions are also defending an already illegal act.
And one I might say is both central to the present conflict, and also central to your simplistic, authority-centered justifications for IDF brutality.
Grasshopper, unless you can point out each and every specific incident in which the Israeli's "illegally" took each acre of land, then you have no real point.
The Jews were guarenteed that land by a collective group of nations after WWII, the Palestinians were guarenteed it by the Imperial British government. You want to talka bout who is responsible, go to those two sources and argue it out.
The Jews were guarenteed that land by a collective group of nations after WWII, the Palestinians were guarenteed it by the Imperial British government. You want to talka bout who is responsible, go to those two sources and argue it out.
Loki, that was the point I was making.
We don't know on either side and there is too much biased to see if anything is true or not.
Therefore, we must ignore that problem and find the route of this mess and fix that. Mudslinging and lies are going back and forth between Palestinians and Israelis, those cannot be stopped and only hinder any peace process, going back to my point that there cannot be peace.
We don't know on either side and there is too much biased to see if anything is true or not.
Therefore, we must ignore that problem and find the route of this mess and fix that. Mudslinging and lies are going back and forth between Palestinians and Israelis, those cannot be stopped and only hinder any peace process, going back to my point that there cannot be peace.
Correct me if I'm wrong here then, but doesn't that undermine your one-sided approach here?
Another small point - do you believe in *Guilt by Association*? I assume you do, because you seem to justify the razing of entire villages by the fact that a suicide bomber lived there.
Grasshopper, I am for neither side, I have made my case, however, I have pointed out the Israeli side for few of you will even stop to consider it.
The Israeli concept is to destroy the building complex that the terrorist lived in order to show that even if we can't punish you, others you know will suffer and to show that Israel will not stand for people commiting suicide bombings.
The Israeli concept is to destroy the building complex that the terrorist lived in order to show that even if we can't punish you, others you know will suffer and to show that Israel will not stand for people commiting suicide bombings.
Elspeth - you obviously do believe in guilt by assocation, and also the punishment of communities for the acts/decisions of an individual.
You said
A Palestinian suicide bomber could have justified his/her actions by the same quote.
And no, I am not pro-Palestinian; neither am I anti-Israeli.
I am however, pro-humanitarian - a concept which seems to have escaped your list of options.
You said
A Palestinian suicide bomber could have justified his/her actions by the same quote.
And no, I am not pro-Palestinian; neither am I anti-Israeli.
I am however, pro-humanitarian - a concept which seems to have escaped your list of options.
That is the spiral of violence.
Suicide bomber kills people, Israelis destroy a building. Suicide bombers kill more people and so on.
Return to my point about the conflict never ending.
Suicide bomber kills people, Israelis destroy a building. Suicide bombers kill more people and so on.
Return to my point about the conflict never ending.
