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Who is the real threat: America or Islamic extremists?

KTC, try this on for size: Life in the 'First World' is so devoid of meaning and spirituality, that we look for causes or events greater than ourselves to fill that spiritual need. That search can lead us to causes like anticapitalism, or the desire to fight in a war. Thus, part of the extreme response we are seeing is a just anger, but part is an unconscious desire for a great event/conflict to order life and make it simple, the way that religion, tribe, etc. used to do.

I hope we're still here a year from now; I'd like for you to be able to say I told you so - but I'd like even better if I could say it. Will north of Seattle survive? We'll see. And sod you back...
 
p.s. This weekend is a Canadian holiday - Thanksgiving, it's called. We are going to the country to sit on a rock and stare at the salmon swimming upstream, so I will be unavailable to continue my incoherent ranting until Tuesday. Please try to keep up your end, even in my absence.... (Graemlin of happy face sticking tongue out)
 
"The site also talks about the 5 million foreign guest workers in Saudi Arabia, doing the dirty work. How do they fit in with your neat theory?"

Probably quite well - you are aware that of this 5 million, a tiny proportion are professionals from the West, where as most of the rest are indentured Pakistanis, Muslim Indians, Palestinians and Philipinos working uder slave conditions, aren't you? Clue: slave wages = not very responsive to changes in the economy.

What's your point, man? Would say that it would be wrong for white South Africans or German gentiles in Nazi Europe to object to their regimes when they're 'getting all the benefits' while the rest of humanity is being crushed under their heel?
 
Labour peer blames 'US anarchists'
By Richard Eden
(Filed: 24/09/2001)
LORD PAREKH, the Labour peer, said in Bombay that IRA terrorism was "justified" and blamed American anarchists for the attacks by hijackers on the World Trade Centre and Pentagon.
He defended "politically focused" acts of violence, such as those by the IRA and tried to play down the role of Islamic extremists.
His reluctance to endorse the Government's view that terrorists inspired by Islam were to blame will put him at odds with most of the Labour Party and the Prime Minister.
He said: "My own suspicion is that the attacks could well have been masterminded by American anarchists."

I don't really need to comment about this do I?
 
Unfortunately Mr Canuck, you 've gone off on one again without anything to back you up (sorry if some parts of this are bit rushed, I typed a reply out once and my PC crashed just as I pressed the send button. Aaaaargh!)

Its quite possible that the CIA reckons the oil price has been going up but I'm not "simply wrong" according to Shebonti Ray Dadwal, Research Officer, The Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, New Delhi, in "Oil Price Crisis: Implications for Gulf Producers":

" In mid-February 1999, the price of crude oil, which had averaged between $13 to $11 per barrel in 1998 (from around $19.30 per cent in 1997), slipped into single digit figures of $9.96 per barrel of Benchmark Brent, sending the international oil market into a fresh tailspin. Though news of
continued depressed oil prices was welcome to oil-importing countries, including India, it brought little cheer to oil-producing and exporting countries, especially those belonging to the increasingly ineffective Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC). Concern was voiced that the producers did not have the political will to tackle an increasing crude oil stockpile; some members like Saudi Arabia complained that fellow members like Venezuela and Iran were showing no inclination to implement the cuts which had been agreed to in 1998 while Kuwait tried to rally others to agree to additional production cuts. Meanwhile, non-OPEC members like Mexico and Norway, who in a rare show of solidarity with OPEC, had agreed a year ago to a historic agreement to shave around three million barrels per day (b/d), declared that they would not consider any fresh output cuts till there was full compliance by all producers. In fact, the OPEC Secretaries said that an average of secondary sources showed that the cartel's supply had increased in the month of January by 280,000 b/d to 27.47 million b/d. The fall in oil prices began in end-1997 due to several factors. Despite signs that an Asian financial crisis was setting in, in December 1997, OPEC, led by the biggest producer, Saudi Arabia, decided to go in for a 10 per cent quota hike, thereby raising the cartel's production to 27.3 million b/d. At the time, the Saudis, fed up of playing the role of swing producer, had reasoned that this would stabilise production and put an end to the quota busting indulged in by some of the members, like Nigeria and Venezuela. But the timing was wrong and had disastrous consequences on oil prices and the market in general. "

Which kinda rumbles your argument. We can argue about the price of oil if you like, but that doesn't change the facts. You also talk about "the 5 million foreign guest workers in Saudi Arabia, doing the dirty work. How do they fit in with your neat theory?". But if you had actually read the article I was originally referring to you would have seen that it explicitly talks about the fact that Saudi Arabia's "strategy was aimed at reducing the large and growing unemployment rate among its young citizens, its dependence on oil exports, and its huge foreign labor force (in 1993 there were 4.6 million foreign workers out of a total population of 14.6 million; today they are approximately 6 million in a population of about 23 million) by "getting the economy moving again." "

Strike 2?

For someone who gets so upset about being called a bar-room loudmouth, you're not slow to wheel out the insults yourself. You suggest that because I don't want to live in a commune that I'm "unprepared to do anything truly difficult, in the name of [my] ideals." I've spent 23 years getting involved in industrial action, community struggles, direct action and street protest. I've been assaulted, attacked, imprisoned, fined, spied on and harassed. Quite honestly, going off to commune with nature and live in a wood for a bit sounds like the sort of thing people do for a holiday! If you think that defending my colleagues as a union shop steward against aggressive bosses who've just sacked 12 people on the spot is easier than going without TV for a while, I think I would have to disagree (sacrifice air-conditioning? I don't even know anyone with air- conditioning!).

You also wheel out all the old stereotypes about anti-Capitalists that you've picked up from right-wing newspapers. I'm not middle class or from middle class roots, and although I did go to college (on a full maintenance grant), I wouldn't say that has had more effect on me than the rest of my life spent working in quarries,on farms and building sites, driving buses, delivering cars (and post for a while), cleaning offices and schools (ugh! the boys toilets still haunt me!), fixing machines etc etc. What really made me laugh out loud was the suggestion that "the system ... continues to nurture [our] right to dissent". This in the year that 4 people have been shot down by the police during demonstrations in Europe, one fatally, in the year that hundreds of people were prevented from travelling across borders to protests because they were potential "troublemakers", when hundreds of people were assaulted by the Genovese police for daring to protest against the G8 summit, including people who were battered senseless, tortured and jailed
without charge. In the wake of Sept 11th we are going to get new laws that will increase the amount of surveillance, spying and harassment of activists. This in the year that it has been almost impossible to hold protests in London without being subject to new police Section 60 powers (of detention and forcible photography) on thousands of people. Far from "nurturing" dissent, it has
become abundantly clear over the last 12 months that the Government is intent on
criminalising
dissent.

The other pathetic slur that you charge us with is that we "apparently either sympathize with or adulate" the Sept 11th hijackers. Once again, you show that you didn't even bother to read the posts you are slagging off. In the very post of mine you are referring to I said "we need to clearly articulate our opposition to both versions of the ruling class - the West's and the funda-mental-ists, neither of whom have anything to offer the working class but an eternity of misery". You seem to be caught up in this frenzy of blame and revenge, so much so that you have abandoned your interest in liberty, to the point where you believe that trying to understand the events around us is equivalent to supporting mass murder. Its sad that rather than make a coherent response to this tragedy you would rather wade through the blood of poverty-stricken children and hand the
funda-mental-ists the Islam/West polarisation of the middle east that they desperately need to survive. I read
something the other day, written by some liberal commentator that I'd never heard of before, which is perhaps relevant here: "If Americans fail to understand why their country is hated, it is often because they barely comprehend the extent of its influence. No one travels halfway round
the world to kill themselves amid a people with whom they feel no connection. Even in the Arabian desert, America is uncomfortably close. For the US, it may seem like a foreign war, but on the other side it is more like a civil war"

Strike 3, you're outta here!
 
To Steelgate, and Big Dave. Now that Bin Laden has come out and admitted he did it, with that end your doubts? A Christian director of a Western bank in Beirut claimed that only "international Zionism possessed the means and the will to undertake this hideous act." These nonsensical views are held by both the man on the street and some in the intelligentsia. It remains to be seen whether the pitilessly aggressive statements by Mr. bin Laden and Al Qaeda spokesman Sulaiman Abu Ghaith will erase such beliefs. "America is full of fear," crowed a jubilant Osama bin Laden, in his taped message anticipating our response to his massacre of the six thousand. "They cry for their children." In a gleeful expression of pride in his guilt of mass murder, the fanatic promised that "nobody in the U.S. will feel safe."

The master terrorist has no conditions. He wants our unconditional surrender. He wants our enslavement. We must avoid justifying, and reject equally the adulateurs of America and the contempteurs, as the particular flaws of American policy are beside the point. The nihilist offensive follows its own logic. The use of force against the Taliban and Osama bin Laden was unavoidable given the terrorist threat

One can only be amazed at the ease with which some people tell us what motivated the terrorists. Guess what? The terrorists didn't leave an explanatory note. Because their deed was their note: We want to destroy America, starting with its military and financial centers. Which part of that sentence don't people understand?
Have you ever seen Osama bin Laden say "I just want to see a smaller Israel in its pre-1967 borders," or "I have no problem with America, it just needs to have a lower cultural and military profile in the Muslim world"? These terrorists aren't out for a new kind of coexistence with us. They are out for our non-existence.

None of this seems to have seeped into the "Yes, but . . ." crowd, whose most prominent "Yes, but" states: This terrorist act would never have happened if America hadn't been so supportive of Israel.
My response is, "Yes, but . . . but . . ."

Yes, there is no question, America's support of Israel — even when Israel builds greedy, provocative settlements in the heart of the Gaza Strip — has produced understandable Muslim anger. But the argument doesn't end there. America has also taken the lead role in trying to reverse this situation. We know the Sept. 11 attack was being planned a year ago — exactly when President Clinton was proposing to Yasir Arafat a Palestinian state on roughly 95 percent of the West Bank and East Jerusalem — with the Israeli settlers uprooted from all but 5 percent. In other words, this terrorism was being planned because America was trying to build Israeli-Palestinian coexistence, not because it wasn't.

Ah, say the "Yes, but" folks, but Arab public opinion has been inflamed by the Arab TV images of Israel suppressing the Palestinian uprising. Yes, at times Israel has used excessive force, and one can understand how that looks to Arab eyes, but Israel has also been responding to Palestinian suicide attacks on Israeli pizza parlors and discos — which isn't highlighted on Arab TV.

Moreover, this uprising by the Palestinians was not their only recourse. There was an active U.S.-sponsored diplomatic track, with a deal on the table, which may not have been fully acceptable to Palestinians but was certainly worth building upon and hardly justified suicide-bombing Israeli civilians. The Arab media and leaders now talk as though the Clinton proposal for a Palestinian state never happened. But it did.

The second "Yes, but" is that the terrorists reflect a protest over Muslim poverty. Yes, poverty can breed desperate people. However, most of the hijackers were middle-class Saudis or Egyptians.

Is it America's fault that the richest ruling family in the world, the Saudis, have citizens who are poor and frustrated? Is it America's fault that Korea had the same per capita income in the 1950's as many Arab states, but Korea has managed its development so much better since that it now dwarfs all Arab economies? Afghanistan is run by a medieval Taliban theocracy that bans women from working or going to school. How could such a place not be poor? And who was the biggest protector of that backward Taliban society? Osama bin Laden and his men.

As for the war itself… The Bush administration has made what are, for an American government, extraordinary efforts to show that the war that began Sept. 11 will not be the war Osama bin Laden wants: a battle between Islam and the rest of the world, particularly the United States. That liberation counterstrategy makes sense. "Don't get mad; get even" is not the furious Western reaction that the fanatics expected. Cool, calm killing is not our way, but adapt we must to accommodate an unnatural enemy that welcomes death. YES, America should look deeper into its policies and actions — BUT, BUT, BUT we're not the only ones who need to look in the mirror.
 
Even if Bin Laden did do it Darin (and I have seen no evidence or confession), that is a.) no excuse to bomb him, and b.) no excuse to bomb the Taliban. Bombing will do fuck all good and a lot of harm.

PEACE TO ALL!
 
Ahhh, Nemo what better excuse do we need to exterminate Osama Bin Ladin. I tell you none! My govt. leaders say they have the evidence. I trust my leaders. Also better to kill him in an afgan cave and left to rot than to be brought back to the west for trial. The more publicity he receives and the longer he is alive the worse off the west will be.

Death To All Enemies Of The U.S.A.
 
Suhentzu:

you old philosopher you. That would mean the death of 4 billion people and all the sharks off your southern and eastern coasts.
 
"I trust my leaders."

Yeah - 'cause after all, an American president would never lie publicly about anything, would they? :rolleyes:
 
I should have said I trust Bush (I'm a right winger). Everyone knew Clinton lied all the time anyway.
 
Yeah but Clinton had fun. Bush's idea of fun is diddling with a horse. Same intellectual level I suppose.
 
Damn! I come back from a quiet pastoral weekend, and the rubble's jumping in Kabul!

For those green-minded amongst us, the salmon are still spawning in Canadian rivers...

KTC, what do you know about GWB and horses? And have you ever seen the hind quarters of a healthy Appaloosa?

No, well red, you don't need to comment about Lord Parekh. I don't know who the hell he is, but I agree that he is a misguided soul...

But he does bring up an interesting point. Everyone is freaking out because the US is using violence. "Violence doesn't solve anything; those who live by the sword..etc." Everyone counsels the path of reason in response to tragedy and aggression. Fine. But doesn't that apply to arab extremists and bin Laden as well? The Sept. 11 attacks were apparently some sort of message; in other words, they used violence to advance their ends or whatever, and they did it first. Let's see all of you stand up and give a big thumbs down to the terrorists...

JWH: my point on the guest workers, is that unlike other countries, where the unemployed are citizens, the 'guest workers' are there usually on term contracts, without rights in Saudi Arabia. If the unemployment problem is that big, it can be solved by sending the 5 million home. That hasn't happened - probably because the problem isn't as big as you believe it is.

Well Red: re oil prices. I will stack my sources against yours any day. Do a little research beyond some Indian think tank. Try the opec sites, etc. if you want to know the historic price of oil.

As far as name calling goes, there is a difference between questioning someone's resolve, or their knowledge or the basis of their beliefs, etc, and calling someone an idiot, or a loudmouth, or a shit. The first is part of a discourse, and can lead to the further exchange of ideas (as you have done with your personal history). The latter method is merely a personal attack, which doesn't leave much room for debate or rejoinder, beyond "I am not!" or "You're one too!"

In other words, the former may have a place in debate amongst grownups; the latter is best left in the schoolyard.

With respect to dissent, I believe that your own history proves my point. You speak of your action and protest over a number of years. That you have run afoul of the law on a few occasions does not surprise me, and I'm sure it doesn't surprise you. You have probably been arrested for trespass, creating a disturbance, etc, the things that often go along with protest.

But, I expect that you've never done real 'hard time', the punishment our society metes out to truly serious crime. And I expect that you are typing out your emails from home, and not from Dartmoor.

I don't know those things for sure, but I can be 95% sure that you aren't dead, as someone with your history of dissent would be, if you had lived in any one of a number of countries where dissent is not nurtured.

I know this is an easy target, but it's a fact that if you had tried any of your antics against a Taliban type regime, you would have ended up in a soccer stadium with the shiny end of a Kalashnikov in your mouth.

People have been hurt, and killed, as a result of protests in the US, UK, etc. but the governments there don't make a practice of 'disappering' protesters, or lining them up against a wall and killing them. After their night of protest, most protesters in our countries wake up the next morning, and go to work to pay the rent, just like the more 'conformist' coworkers around them. And that, my friend, is why I say what I say.

Sorry, W.R., I still think you are middle class. In my own family, only one member of my parent's generation obtained a university degree (and it's a big family); I, and a few of my generation have them, but most don't. I have also worked at many labour jobs, in part to pay my way through school. But all of us are middle class.

Ask yourself this: do you have a bank account? A credit card? Debt? New shoes? Crossed salt water to go on a vacation? Do you have food anxiety? I thought so...

Exactly what civil war are they fighting? Are they fighting for the right to continue to live through subsistence farming, to opress women, to believe that all infidels are unclean, that to die fighting infidels grants one a special spot in heaven, to force Hindus to wear special yellow markings on their clothing? Are they fighting to prevent the flow of ideas and goods that is happening with greater frequency in most other parts of the world? And who is doing the fighting? Is it certain elites within these countries, or is it the population at large? And how would we know - most of them are not democracies; no votes are taken, so how would we know the 'will of the people'?

Do you believe that the average person in the third world would reject the increased standard of living that would come with increased commerce and interchange with other countries? Who would suffer in that situation - would it be the despots and dictators who use religion and nationalism and ignorance to keep their own people in check, while enriching themselves?

Strike three? Don't think so. Doesn't count if you set up a straw man to pitch to..
 
quote canuck:
I know this is an easy target, but it's a fact that if you had tried any of your antics against a Taliban type regime, you would have ended up in a soccer stadium with the shiny end of a Kalashnikov in your mouth.

And if we were in South America the same would probably happen and has happened and at the other end of the gun a good old boy from the U$A or a yankee trained and ordered local thug. Same in Indo China same all over where your good old boys have invaded in the name of friendship. So who are the barbarians again? Football stadiums? Tell it to the people of Chile. They will laugh in your face yankee.

Heres a good cuss for ya. Yankee go home! And stay there. Be isolationist and do the world a big favour. USA not U$A. Build some more monstrosities like the WTC if you get bored.

Speaking of which many people died because they were scared to leave their desks. No initiative see, scared of the boss maybe? And why did the fire brigade park underneath the towers when collapse was imminent? What chance had those fire engines of getting water to the fire? NONE! What kind of planning is that? Pretty damn bad. So some of those deaths maybe the majority were down to incompetence.

Stay by your desk... and buy a really good gas mask. In fact buy a biological body suit you never know when it might come in handy old boy. War? You don't know the meaning of the word sunshine. War to you is modern v1's launched from a long long way away. A cowards war.

[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
Damn it, I knew that I should not have checked this stuff before going to bed...
Kissthecat, you are beyond doubt the most ignorant, misinformed, sad, and vindictive person that it has been my displeasure to come across in a message board before...Your comment about people being afraid to leave their desk, or the fire brigade parking too close is totally out of line, and even in the depths of your conscience you (surely) must realize this...these are human beings we are talking about here...some of them could have been from your own family...(oh, I forgot, that's right, your entire family is good working-class anarchist stock, no "middle-class bastards" there, right....)
At least the "right wing nazi/Afghani bombing/Yankees out there have the common decency to express some type of sorrow over loss of any life, and that is what separates us from the animals/the Taliban/you.
As far as the Biological suit is concerned, looking at the state of "security" in London last time I was there, and considering that the British are involved in this too, I hope that you don't need it before I do...but that is something that (unlike you) I would not wish on anybody...
:mad: :mad: :mad:
 
You're not helping, KTC, with ridiculous comments like that -- yes it does look callous. And it gives an excuse for right wing gung ho bomb Afghanistan into shit merchants like rasrave to think (probably) that we're ALL as callous as that :(

Some of us are genuinely against ALL violence war and terrorism.

W of W

[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: William of Walworth ]
 
"shit merchant"...I've been called worse than that, c'mo... :)
And no, mercifully, there are some people who are not in need of psychotic drugs who I enjoy sparring with...like you, for example ;)
 
"If the unemployment problem is that big, it can be solved by sending the 5 million home. That hasn't happened - probably because the problem isn't as big as you believe it is."

The point is that even if you sent all the slaves (indentured labourers) home, it would still not help the unemployment problem for the simple fact that the remaining domestic population would be unable/unwilling to do the same work for the same or lower wages, which is what the logic of sending the slaves home would demand!
 
Johnny Canuck - you're getting your blood now, I hope you're happy. Unfortunately the boy I saw in the paper who had his leg blown off last night wasn't the target, but hey, he's not your kid so who cares eh? He may have been a victim of the Taliban first, but hey - he's your victim now. Yippee Kayay.

I'm not interested in arguing about oil prices at a time like this. If you think your sources are better than mine, well fine, you believe that. Its your choice. You're also wrong about my criminal record (and I seem so nice online don't I?) and my background (I never said anything about going to University), but that's my business - I don't believe it makes any difference to the words I'm typing. I could make a load of assumptions about you if I felt like it, but to be honest I don't care who you are, your words say enough to me. I appreciate that Americans have a wierd interpretation of class which seems to amount to being middle class if you have a job, but if you think having a bank account makes you middle class I suggest you go back to the books because you've missed the bit about ownership of the means of production. "Food Anxiety" is not a phrase I've ever come across before - isn't that what the starving Afghans are suffering from after 4 years of drought? I appreciate that, at the moment, I'm unlikely to be killed for protesting in the UK (although I have been shot at by police during demonstrations in other countries in the past), but the fact that, unlike Italy, they haven't killed any demonstrators here this year, does not mean that dissent is "nurtured". Again, if you don't want to believe the examples of how dissent is being criminalised that I gave before, that's up to you. The fact that we can still operate within some hard won freedom in the North makes it all the more important that we use that space to resist Capitalism and the State and support working class resistance in the South while we can, not just sit around on our arses while workers are exploited, the environment is destroyed or children are bombed into oblivion.

Under the current state of the world, the nearest people in the South are going to get to the riches of the North are when 3 million dollars worth of cruise missile explodes all over them. Neo-liberal globalisation exists to exploit the 3rd world, not to assist it. This "war against terrorism" being carried out by one bunch of "terrorists" against another bunch of "terrorists" is yet another in a long series of battles between rich and arrogant bastards sending out working class people to get killed on their behalf. Another struggle for power, another list of mothers losing their children. You say you used to care about other people, now it seems you would rather just kill them. Well I it looks like xmas came early for you this year.

The answer to the question "Who is the real threat: America or Islamic extremists?" depends where you live. But I live in the UK and I can fight Tony Blair, his Government, the rich and the ruling class, while at the same time offering help and support to other workers fighting back all over the world. If I was in Afghanistan, I would be fighting the Taliban or the next bunch of funda-mental-ist Northern Alliance misogynists who try to take over. If I was in the USA, I would be fighting George W. If I have to answer George Bush's question are you for us or against us? I would have to choose against - against Bush, Blair and Binman.

I'm sick of this. Enjoy your war.
 
Rasrave -- read properly. Bomb-Afghanistan-into-shit-merchant was what I meant, sorry if that wasn't clear! I should have put in some hyphens ...

If you were JUST a shit merchant I wouldn't mind ...

W of W
 
Kissthecat: Beautiful! I think I'm getting to like you... My hat is off to you for being so totally full of shit, and being able to put it down on paper other than the toilet variety; I say this because my own eyes are so purely brown...

I get it; the smart ones had called in sick that morning, and got to watch the whole thing from their cozy beds. Only the mindless wage slaves actually showed up for the company barbecue...

Right. Back to business. Re: sucking on a Kalashnikov..Your theory of US client states might have held water two or three decades ago, but today, it's not worth passing water on.(That's two toilet references; maybe I need a shrink..) Who are the loyal minions of the US in South America? It wouldn't be the Columbians, who are merrily helping to unravel the fabric of N.A. society with their national product. The Brazilians? The Argentinians? All that client state stuff went largely by the by with the end of the Soviet Union and cold war geopolitics.

How about Indochina? The Vietnamese kicked the crap out of the US; not too much bowing and scraping there. Maybe you mean the Khmer Rouge?

And so what? My point still is - nobody's shooting YOU in a soccer stadium, for all your anarchistic, anti government ways, because debate and dissent are part of our society.

The firemen: I didn't know the buildings would collapse until it actually happened; did you? I'm not sure if the NYFD employs staff clairvoyants..

However, I do agree that the deaths were due to incompetence. Remember when the Taliban went to that world heritage site in northern Afghanistan, with the 2000 year old giant Buddhist carvings, and reduced them to rubble with artillery fire? I think the civilized world was incompetent for not nuking them there and then, once they'd shown their true colors... That sure would have saved a lot of bother over the last month..

Coward's war: historically, the Chinese called the spear the king of weapons; the sword was the queen. Why? Because they were longer than your arm; they allowed you to kill your opponent with a lessened risk to yourself.

Have you seen that video footage on the Internet of the Afghani or Chechen cutting the throat of, then beheading, a Russian Spetznaz soldier with a Bowie knife? You have to be out of your mind to want to go hand to hand with a bunch of illiterate crazies with knives, when you can sit in a reclining chair on a cruiser, push a button, and incinerate the whole mob from a thousand miles away.

Newsflash. War is an ugly reality brought about by extreme events. There is no honor to it; it is about winning, by making the enemy dead before he or she makes you dead. If you believe in chivalry, then you are tilting at windmills...

But you're right; we don't know war, which is why, if you fuck with us at home like the WTC, we will bring it back to your neighborhood big time.

William: I don't think you are callous - really. But I still want to bomb Afghanistan, and I don't need you for an excuse.

Well Red: Actually, I'm not happy. I would be happy if I could turn the clock back to Sept. 10.

You don't sound all that nice.. You may have a criminal record, maybe you broke the law. But I'm willing to bet that you have not been seriously punished for stating your political views, as opposed to breaking a window, or punching a cop. You see, we have the right of free speech, but we aren't allowed to assault people, or destroy their property, even if they are money grubbing capitalists.

So maybe the Spanish or the Italian police beat you up or shot at you. The system that nurtures dissent exists out of the British parliamentary system, and by extension, the US, Canada, and some other Commonwealth countries. I'm not making that claim for every first world country, just the ones where I, and you, live. If you want to throw stones at the Guardia Civil, be my guest...

Food anxiety. Children in this country who have anxiety about whether or not they will get, or get enough, food. I'm sure it exists in Afghanistan, but it also exists here in a significant percentage of the under 18 population, namely, the children of the underclass. I'll bet most of the posters to this newsgroup have never experienced it.
 
p.s. Well Red: You would fight Blair, Bush Bin L. etc. Damn it, man, can't you get along with anybody?!

Relax, dude, your penis size is probably more than adequate...
 
I am not going to debate the merits of what KTC has said, but I am just going to ask you, Rasrave, about one point. You said that:

"in the depths of your conscience you (surely) must realize this...these are human beings we are talking about here"

Do you not think that this could also apply to the war in Afghanistan that you have been so gleefully espousing?

And what is your position on the innocent civilians and UN workers who have already died in Afghanistan?

PEACE TO ALL!
 
Well Red: I apologize for making a tasteless comment about your manhood. I realize that a joke like that won't go over very big..while the nasty responses will balloon out of all proportion...

I will try to be more serious from now on...
 
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