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Who is the real threat: America or Islamic extremists?

"Have you seen that video footage on the Internet of the Afghani or Chechen cutting the throat of, then beheading, a Russian Spetznaz soldier with a Bowie knife? You have to be out of your mind to want to go hand to hand with a bunch of illiterate crazies with knives"

Well, shit - have you seen the footage from the Cherkizokovo (sp?) concentration camp? No? Got any suggestions why not?

For your information, Chechens are no more "illiterate crazies with knives" than Americans are. They certainly have a far higher rate of literacy that the American public and (unfortunately because it represents the level of aggression and violence they have been subjected to) far higher level of armament. Still, if it fits in with your stereotype of Muslims as subhuman uncivilised retrogrades, why let the trueth interfere with your opinions?
 
Last post for now, I promise; lunch break is almost up...

Reading all of your passionate anti-war words brings a question to mind:

You've heard of Flight 93? That's the one that crashed in Pennsylvania.

Picture yourself on a plane, maybe coming back from Genoa, musing on your recent spot o' bovver for the cause. Suddenly, heavily accented types hijack the plane. People on cell phones around you confirm that other planes have been hijacked, and have been crashed into Wembley, Picadilly Circus, and the Bureau of Hatch'em, Match'em and Dispatch'em. Your plane is certainly going to be the next bomb.

Reports based on the cockpit recorders of Flight 93 state that when the passengers took on the terrorists, a "violent, gruesome struggle" ensued.

Would you do the same thing to save the lives of some of your fellow citizens on the ground? Just wondering. You don't have to tell me if you don't want to.
 
Nemo, there seems to be some confusion here..I am not deliriously happy about civilians dying, but, sadly (and as it has been pointed out before)civilians are always the casualties of war..the Americans and others doing the bombing are at least trying to minimize the civilian harm, which AGAIN the terrorist groups are not...civilians are always the victims of war, whether it is being waged by people from the West or not.
...it is nasty business, but involves nasty people...possibly on both sides. The terrorists have made it quite clear that they are not interested in any discussion, their aim is simply to kill Americans (and British) people..and for that, they can bite the dust as far as I am concerned...
 
johney ...bass how low can you go ? penus size really ? thats almost as ridiculas as your american history lesson :D

maybe you do need to see a shrink ( but not for your crass toilet humor ) but for your strange belife, that you think a person has to be a victim, to have any kind of opinion. You don’t know anything about the people here that reply to these messages, just because you persume they have acsees to their own computers, does not say much about their socail postion, as in one which is comfortable. This relly is just anothere ( amongst many) which is an example of your arogance and dare I say… ignorance.

Its seems to this continous recourse ( that in some way ) we should feel guilty ( for not holding the same opinions as your self ). who are the people that have made the differnts to possitive aspects of living throw out time. Is it people like your self that choose to accept everything on face value ? is it reactionarys like your self, that belive we sould nuke people for destroying iconicloistic objects of worship ? if that is the case, then perhaps you might argue, that the catholic church should have cut prodestent leaders like luther or calvins balls of. My god if we lissend to you, we would still be living in trees, maybe we will agiai one day ( when your mindset decides to drop another atomic bome ).

Instead of spouting viriol shite on the internet, if I was living in canada, I might spend my time doing charitable work for the frountier foundation in the north west terorities, and help native candians rebuild there communties, which has sufferd from “ manifest destiny “ ( as you have put ). I am being serious, and I am not just saying it for the sake of this argument. Your overselly an itelligent person ( if mis informed ) you could proberly do a lot of positve things.

We can make a comrade out of you yet jhoney ;)
 
So Rasrave, you are saying that it is okay for Afghan civilians to die because it is the casualties of war, but not US civilians because they are the victims of terrorism. IMO, the terms are interchangable. Death is wrong full stop. Be it the death of US civilians or Afghans, US soldiers or Afghan ones.

PEACE TO ALL!
 
hmmmm maybe when they put a Mc donalds in kabul, that will also be called (manifest destiny) ?...
 
Bezzer, in light of the popularity of Mc Donalds restaurants in other parts of the world (Moscow, paris and Tokyo to name but a few), that might be the safest place for the Taliban to be... :)
 
JWH: I must refrain from using hotbuttons like 'illiterate crazies'; it lets you go off about my hyperbolic phrase, while ignoring the larger idea which I presented. Please feel free to post a reply to my comment about trying to win war without dying oneself...

As far as literacy in Afghanistan, the rate of illiteracy is 75% generally, 85% amongst women, which isn't surprising, since it is an offence punishable by death to teach the three Rs to little girls...

No, I don't stereotype Arabs that way. For example, did you know that Arabic universities were the only centres for real learning, especially in mathematics, during the so called Dark Ages, when your (and my) ancestors, Eric Bloodaxe and Frederick Redbeard et al, were sacking each other's twig huts, and carrying off each other's Brunhildes?
 
I am beginning to realise these Bush boys are war surfers. They are CNN git surfing. They seem to like talking big bad words. But can they walk the walk like they talk the talk? No way. If I was of their oppinions and a little younger I would be down the army recruitment office not here talking with a bunch of rebels young and old. I am not dancing no more wiv you pervs that's for sure. I may just put a little pic up now and then because a pic says a 1000 words.

edited because of this funny cigerette

[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
KTC: but you were just getting to be fun...

I'd pick up a bayonet, but I'm afraid my bad back would classify me 4F, so I do my patriotic duty by trying to convert internet pinkos into Starship Troopers for the cause..

Semper Fi...
 
Oh christ! That is unfortunate. I was looking forward to a postcard from hell or viewing your name on a plaque even :( j/k

;)

oops. You made me type more :mad:

[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
I thought you already considered these to be postcards from hell...but maybe I flatter myself.

Go to bed. What is the halflife of THC, anyway? (Maybe that's a post for a different group...)
 
Who's the real threat? Both !

Sure the muslim religion is scary. Their faith of steel is the product of thousand years; isolated, poor and badlucked they hang close to their religion, the only speech that explained such misfortune. Its straightforwardly their reason to live, otherwise i'm pretty sure the level of suicides acts would be damn high.
But just as for the american side, the extremists are not really well informed about the diversity of cultures, and doesn't share the values of respect, because the Coran said so. But the Coran can be viewed on so many different ways, good or bad, and that is their major "shame". They wont ever admit that there is one message from that big book and they got it and thats it.
Since not so long ago, the world for them was reduced to their populate. But since the rest of the world has been added to their map, they went into a much bigger goal, and enthousiast frustration. For them, all the world must be muslim and thats it.

But both sides are a menace to our security, well actually we dont have a security anymore. A fire needs wood to survive otherwise it dies by itself. Bin Laden (or whatever) started the fire, the real concrete dangerous fire, but the american cow-boys aren't better since they're keeping the fire alive. By bombing, they expect automatic mind conversion toward their interest, which shows a big lack in the cultural opening. How can you expect to convince these people, who had suffer all their life living under this climate of violence, domination and intrensigeant faith, by imposing a climate of violence, domination and death?

This is nonsense, this is violence enhanced with pride.

This is reinforcing the faith and rage of the (I wont say muslim, because its an extremist part of it, I wont say Taliban, because not only them are frustrated, this is a question of global atmosphere, shared by all the ) oppressed. We're going around in circle, doing so many symbolic act to justify worst.

The solution is simple, but the benifice will have to be seperated in two of course. Just be humble, put away the pride for a second, act frankly and respect each other. Its basic, but doesn't seem simple enough to be instaured.
 
Johnny: your efforts to appear knowledgeable and non-stereotyping fail miserably when you use "Chechen", "Afghan" and "Arab" interchangably when they, are in fact, mutually exclusive. (There is an exception to that statement, actually - do you know what it is?)
 
JWH: are you a member of the Oxford debating team? I'm not suggesting that you possess awesome powers of reason and rejoinder, but that you know lots of the tricks used in verbal repartee.

For the second time, you have latched onto a small part of a sentence, which might give offence and attacked it, in preference to meeting the larger idea presented.

The Chechen/Afghan thing is a red herring. Try dealing with the thrust of my argument. And while your're at it, reread my post, and observe that I use 'Chechen' and 'Afghan' disjunctively, not conjunctively.

I'll argue with you, J Dubya H, but you gotta give me something to work with...

Bezzer, I apologize once again for my fallacious attempt at penis humor, which has obviously flopped like a punctured balloon.

Yes, Bezzer, I suppose I could devote my time to our local Native Americans (hereinafter "NAs"), but who would feed my family? That kind of work doesn't pay well, and doesn't charity begin at home?

Further,at the risk of going off on a tangent, a few things you probably don't know about NAs:

They pay no taxes in Canada.

One by one, the tribes are receiving land claims settlements, often amounting to hundreds of millions of dollars.

They control the mineral and forest rights to the land given to them, and often reap significant profits therefrom.

Rigid and hereditary class systems exist within the tribes. The historical 'have' families continue to be so to the present day. The chiefs and elders consistently come from their ranks.

The chiefs, elders and eminent families control the resources, including land claim and treaty money. The tend to keep the lion's share to themselves, resulting in approx. 10% of the population enjoying approx. 80% of the wealth. The rest of the tribe often lives in desperate poverty, while the 'haves' live in nice homes, attend conferences, and drive SUVs. (Sound familiar?)

One of the Canadian law schools is 'dedicated' to NAs; in other words, they are mandated to accept any NA into their program who has the barest of qualifications.

Land claims are legal big business in Canada, since the government, one of the 'adversaries' in the process, pays the lawyer's fees and court costs for both sides.

Don't get me wrong: NAs have received terrible injustice at the hands of their 'colonizers', but, as always, the whole story is more complex than a few headlines and essays would lead one to believe. Sorta like the middle east...

See the latest? The Taliban has 'unleashed' OBL because of the bombings. But they just said a few weeks ago that he had been defanged, and had no communications ability, to boot. Don't tell me they were fibbing..?

And by their logic, if the bombing of Afghanistan (or is it Chechnya?) allows for the unleashing of OBL, doesn't the bombing of the WTC allow for the unleashing of the cruise missiles, the Mountain Division, and the SAS?
 
JC, re. your comments about Native Americans, Canada is hardly wanting for land to give to NA's.

Also, re. your comments about 'unleashing OBL,' I hesitate to use such a cliché, but 'two wrongs don't make a right.'

PEACE TO ALL!
 
"They control the mineral and forest rights to the land given to them"

How incredibly generous of them.
 
Generous? I don't know; I wonder how a citizen of the 19th century British Empire would have viewed things.. It was His Majesty that was doing the giving...

I hope you didn't miss my point, that the Native Indian situation has a long history, is very complex, and has equities on both sides, as do most human situations and relations.

p.s. The Indians in Canada control thousands of square miles of this country. Their land claims lay claim to almost all of the rest, including cities like Vancouver, etc. By the way, within the Vancouver urban area are at least two Indian reservations on prime urban land: they are some of the largest landholders in the city...
 
Johnny, any chance we can talk to the Native Americans and persuade them to give up a little bit of that land? I figured that the people doing most of the postings on this board might want a nice clean open expanse of land with no nasty history attached to it so they can show us the beautiful society there are attempting to create...though all that might fall apart when the first electric bill comes ("I thought the Socialists were paying it this month" :) )
So easy to always refer all the problems in these postings to "previous Imperialist/Capitalist" involvement and suggesting ditching Israel, having a group hug and bleating on about the evils of the lack of "fair trade" ...meanwhile the poison gas clouds are rolling in...
"Troll Troll Troll Troll, Troll Troll Troll Troll, Wonderful Troll...always preferred Monty Python and Blackadder myself, Ab Fab leaves me cold...sorry ;)
 
Ps interesting bit about the NA land issue, they are doing fairly nicely in the Us too, which is fair enough, as they did get the shaft for 200 years...Some of the biggest casino operators in my neck of the woods are NA and have done a remarkable job of self sufficient economy, very low unemployment, and massive building/investment programs...free education for tribal members, health insurance
The only thing that the regulars on this board might not like is that they are better capitalists than the guys on Wall Street...if you can't beat them, join them I guess. To some, it may seem like they have sold out, to others (like their families and business partners), it might on the other hand like they are feeding, educating, and clothing their own, instead of "the feds" having to do that...which the tribal leaders are very proud of.
For additional info, look up the Philadelphia, Mississippi tribe and its history...
 
I did look up the NAs indigenous to your area; our British cousins might like to see the evolution of the modern Indian reservation at www.choctaw.org

It won't do any good to offer free land here in Canada. I already suggested non-capitalist communes, but I was scoffed at, since it would mean the giving up of some creature comforts...

However, Indians (native, not East) aside I'm going to be a downer, and bring us back to the topic.

Some TV show last night was talking about the effects of the attack on various survivors, and included the familiar footage of planes hitting, buildings crumbling, etc. They don't show it here that much anymore.

Before showing it, the announcer told us what was coming, and I realized that I had to mentally prepare myself, even if only for a moment, to watch. I realized that I must steel myself every time, if I'm going to see it again. Someone called in to a talk show and said that she had to turn away, or cover the screen with her hands, to avoid seeing it again.

I'm bringing this up again because I think it is necessary to understand the thinking in North America, if one wants to try to make sense of what is now happening in the world.

It is difficult to convey to Europeans and others, the magnitude of the trauma that this event has brought to North America. I will not willingly watch it anymore; to me, it would be like watching a video of an accident in which I had been badly injured. You may have been interested the first time or two, but after that, it just creates a maelstrom of emotions that you don't want to feel.

Many of you have pointed out that terrorist attacks are a way of life in many parts of the world. That is true, and that is the crux of the matter. Things like this are so far removed from the North American experience that they tear a rip in our reality. A bomb in Jerusalem, or London for that matter, is a somewhat familiar, if totally unwelcome, event. But I don't think it creates the extreme psycological dislocation in those places, that this massive destruction has created here.

I think people in many countries felt some degree of this - the Queen was crying, for Christ's sake! When have you last seen that? - but not to the extremity that it has been felt here.

When you take a people, and disrupt the psychological plates and fault lines beneath their feet, don't be surprized when they come swarming out like a swarm of angry hornets..


One other thing. I mentioned a word yesterday that I want to go over again today.

Anthrax. Someone has turned it loose in Florida, likely the same people who brought the WTC to us. I say this because it isn't easy to turn anthrax into a weapon, or cheap.

Before this, no one, including Hitler, was willing to use such weapons.

Does this help to define the bad from the good?
 
The anthrax is an American military strain they said was developed in the 50's. If this is true it makes you wonder just how it got loose...

edited to add

It also makes me wonder why they developed it.

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
The anthrax strain was traced back to a strain developed in a lab in Iowa or somewhere, I believe in the 50s. It was disseminated around the world to various labs. Remember that anthrax occurs in nature as a disease of cattle. The lab strain was sold to be the basis for cow vaccine.

To kill people, anthrax must be 'weaponized', as they say. It must be upgraded to a spore powder that people can breathe in sufficient quantity. It was this 'weaponized' anthrax that they found in Florida. The upgraded anthrax wasn't sold on the open market: someone made it.

I know what you're getting at. The US, Russia, etc. have stockpiled such weapons. Yes, and my point is that up to now, even the worst war monsters were too squeamish to unleash such terrible things.

Now, the terrorists have. My question, again; does this increase their moral culpability in your eyes?
 
Ahhh. The old "we did it for the benefit of mankind" bollocks. That is not what I read today. It definitely said military developed.

You can take the white hat off again. :mad:
 
Kissthecat: It is silly of you to say that because a nation has the resources to develop a chemical or bacteriological product that can be used to save lives they are at fault for this. Many of the advances in modern medicine have come out of Gvmt.labs including some that may have insured that you are here today to have this conversation...
What Johnny's point was that although many Gvmts.have stockpiles of deadly chemicals, it has been a general consensus that only the most sick political figures, such as Hitler or Saddam would use them on a civilian population. This precedent was well established in WW1 when it was agreed (by all parties) that the use of such weapons was beyond the scope of warfare (in that particular case, mustard gas..)
If Anthrax has been used by terrorists such as Bin Laden (and I am not convinced of this yet...), this sets yet another bad precedent in this situation and gives yet more ammo to the "let's bomb the shit out of them" train of thought...
On a more ironic note, seeing as bad reporting is always dicussed around here, I have to see the irony in the fact that the initial case of Anthrax was associated with a building in Florida that counts the Globe and other such rags as its tenants....
 
Ironic indeed...

I don't accept your rational on the development of these weapons. But you always mitigate your own masters' guilt. I expect nothing less from you.
 
kissthecat, I am sorry that you cannot understand a simple statement like "nasty things are made in the process of making good things but nasty people take the nasty things and unleash them on unsuspecting civilian populations" (ie saddam, hitler, etc...)
Anyway, have to go now, my masters are calling me to work ;) (this whole "masters" thing is still a little out there, you know...or do you not have a job/spouse/children/commitments?? All of these could be construed as being our "masters", couldn't they now... :)
 
Sorry, KTC; no master pulling the strings of this puppet, just a mistress...

For a moment, forget the genesis of the spores; what is your opinion on the moral culpability of those who use diseases from the Middle Ages as weapons against civilians? Focus, man, focus....
 
Anyone who uses these weapons is a total fucking looney OK. But your rationalising about them being made to counteract evil is beyond contempt.

I don't have a spouse I live with a woman that I happen to love. Kids? Forget it. We both plan to be kid free forever. Job? Nope. Car? Nope. Holidays abroad? Nope. Insurance? Nope. Pension fund? Nope.
 
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