who is responsible for the London attacks?

[vimto]

Open University don't have a fecking look in here...

It's brill

 

[exosculate]

Shreds membership card.

 

[vimto]

Shreds membership card.

Think Liverpool

 

[Jazzz]

Here's another link on Michael Meiring, "the peculiar case of the bombing mastermind who blew his own legs off", from the website of Senator Pimentel.

 

[editor]

Here's another link on Michael Meiring, "the peculiar case of the bombing mastermind who blew his own legs off", from the website of Senator Pimentel.

What the fuck has this bloke got to do with the London bombings?

 

[Jazzz]

I say he has plenty to do with the new global terrorism. For every CIA/FBI spook that blows his own legs off, how many would you say successfully complete their missions? None? Five? Fifty?

And should they succeed, which global terror organisation do you think would get the blame?

Answers on a postcard.

The Michael Meiring case might look small in the grand scheme of global terror but he is hugely significant, both in showing who has their paws filthy dirty with the gunpowder, and in showing the extraordinary censorship of the media when the real blame is obvious.

 

[TeeJay]

I had a quick read of that link (not really in depth as it is very hard to read) and can't see anything that would suggest he was any kind of secret agent - sounds more like some treasure hunter / idiot who was fucking around with dynamite. Quite what this tosser in the Philipines (sp?) has got to do with this thread I don't know.

 

[editor]

I say he has plenty to do with the new global terrorism. For every CIA/FBI spook that blows his own legs off, how many would you say successfully complete their missions? None? Five? Fifty?

I repeat: what's this bloke and "CIA/FBI spooks" got to do with the London bombings?

 

[Badger Kitten]

A bit like people who climb Everest or try to break deep diving records?

edit: actually there are two differences:

The certainty (and intention) versus the merely high probability of killing yourself. The other is that the suicide bomber believes they are doing it for a greater cause, rather than for a laugh (presumably).

What? Blowing yourself up is NOTHING like climbing Everest or free diving. What are you on about? One is a personal challenge, the other is a politically-motivated act of 'sacrifice' which says to the 'enemy', 'our faith, our cause is stronger than yours, we do not fear death, we are so convinced that we are right'. It's the ultimate weapon - war relies on the idea that the enemy will at least try to defend themself and engage in a fight - in a suicide mission, that, chillingly doesn't happen. All bets are off.

It relies on the fetishisation of a 'holy death' for the cult ideal of murder/maiming by self-immolation as 'holy sacrifice'. Therefore I call it a 'murderous death cult. ' And here I refer only to suicide bombers and their warped ideaology, not to Islam as a faith.

EDit: which seems to be what you are saying in the latter part of your post, sorry

 

[Badger Kitten]

Rather OTT indeed.

In fact it's anti-politics and anti-solution. As you'd expect from the Mail.

This bit is a classic of the genre:



It's all the fault of that interweb I tell ye!

* Goes off to google "why does the name 'Kevin Toolis' make me think 'dimwit'?" *

The article is ridiculaously written I agree, but the person spent a year investigating 'the cult of suicide bombers' for Channel 4 so let's see what they come back with.

 

[Badger Kitten]

'I hardly know anything. They only gave me a rucksack to carry on the tube in London. We wanted to stage an attack, but only as a show. Who gave me the explosive? I don't know. I didn't know him. I don't remember. '

This sounds highly plausible to me.

In the past 'suicide bombers' have only committed suicide as a necessity to carry out their attack. And there's no doubt when they do it, their families know, they want you to know about it, and they might cry 'Allah Ahkbar' before they pull the rip cord of the Almighty.

Why is so much of this just not adding up? I have seen no evidence that any of the July events are the work of 'suicide' bombers.

What did this guy think he was doing? I certainly don't know. I wonder if he knew himself.

He could perfectly easily have shouted 'Allah Ahkbar' befiore he blew himself up. There was a shout just before the train blew up, and I told the police that.

 

[editor]

He could perfectly easily have shouted 'Allah Ahkbar' befiore he blew himself up. There was a shout just before the train blew up, and I told the police that.

Aw, don't go spoiling DrJazzz's exciting conspiraloon fantasies with things like first-hand eye witness accounts!

He prefers to dredge up his drivel from bonkers websites, UFOnauts, the late and unlamented Joe "the clown" Vialls and now, it seems, some Filipino bloke who is "Senate Minority Leader Aquilino Q. Pimentel Jr."

What he's got to do with anything is anyone's guess.

 

[Jazzz]

Thank you for your typically helpful contribution editor.

BK, the point about shouting 'Allah Ahkbar' was really one illustration of the hitherto unambiguous nature of suicide attacks. I cannot share your clarity in the recent London events (although you or anyone else identified such a shout that would have certainly been significant)

"I thought the goal of suicide bombers was to blow themselves up as martyrs and be welcomed into the afterlife for the herioc assault on the infidel - it's a cult, it's heroic to them."

Does a very multicultural London tube train easily fit the definition of 'the infidel' to working class guys from Leeds one of whom 'liked cricket and had no interest in politics', another whom worked in a school caring for disabled pupils? And two of them had pregnant wives/girlfriends. Rather than knowing and supporting their apparent heroic suicides, their family and friends were simply stunned.

All I can do is urge you to be very cautious with conclusions here.

As I suggested was the case, Hussain Osman is denying that his actions on 21/7 had anything to do with 7/7,

THE lawyer representing Hussain Osman, the London bomb suspect, said that he had denied that the failed attacks on July 21 had anything to do with the bombings a fortnight earlier.

Antonietta Sonnessa said last night: “My client says his action was purely demonstrative. In fact, all four attempts did not result in any injury or damage at all. Moreover, he maintains that he was nothing to do with the events of July 7.

“He has justified his actions as a form of protest against the fact that civilians are suffering in wars at the present time. He has taken part in many peace marches and has never had any contact whatsoever with any terrorist organisation,” she continued.

“He is not at all a violent person and made sure he would not cause any damage, injuries or deaths. " The Times

Also from Associated Press

"Osman Hussain told interrogators he wasn't carrying enough explosives even to "harm people nearby," the expert told The Associated Press. The expert spoke on condition of anonymity, citing the ongoing investigation, which under Italian law must remain secret."

If that is indeed the case, there can surely be no question of 21/7 being a 'suicide' attack.

(oh and his lawyer is surprisingly cute)

 

[editor]

If that is indeed the case, there can surely be no question of 21/7 being a 'suicide' attack.

I'd say that there can surely be no question of this guy telling the truth judging by his erratic output thus far.

Now, what's this Filipino guy got to do with the London bombings, please?

 

[Citizen66]

Surely the 21/7 bombers would deny being linked to the 7/7 attacks in order to get a lighter sentence and to protect their networks and other cells?

 

[Ae589]

All I can do is urge you to be very cautious with conclusions here.

There are many people in this world who deserve protection and caution in judgement. This is not one of them.

 

[Ae589]

'I hardly know anything. They only gave me a rucksack to carry on the tube in London. We wanted to stage an attack, but only as a show. Who gave me the explosive? I don't know. I didn't know him. I don't remember. '

This sounds highly plausible to me.

Dude, I hate being rude, but that is the most stupid thing I have ever read. Highly plausible?

Seriously, read it back. No? Try reading it back in an American General's voice then? You seem to mistrust so much you are told, and then leap to the other side, believing something because... er... it sounds so stupid it must be true?

 

[Jazzz]

Surely the 21/7 bombers would deny being linked to the 7/7 attacks in order to get a lighter sentence and to protect their networks and other cells?

I'm with Harrison Slade on this question - if you are a suicide bomber you will have no qualms about telling the truth about it, as loudly as you can. You would not want to embarrass your cause any further (having already failed in your suicide attempt) by going, "um, well, I didn't want to hurt anyone". You would be going something like "Allah shall bring death to the evil infidels Bush and Blair and their supporters!!!

Honestly, I can scarcely believe the way people are refusing to countenance any suggestion that the events of 21/7 could be anything other than a 'suicide' attack, when for a start, no-one died!

 

[tarannau]

Although, to be fair, having failed to blow up your own bomb and after having to leave the scene in a puff of smoke, shouting a load of abuse about 'death to infidels' would seem more pathetic than defiant. Bear in mind that these are homegrown Brits as well, so trying to predict what they should have said or how they should have acted, based on past incidents in Israel and elsewhere, may not be particularly accurate.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Honestly, I can scarcely believe the way people are refusing to countenance any suggestion that the events of 21/7 could be anything other than a 'suicide' attack, when for a start, no-one died!

So by that "logic" it wasnt' an attack at all, since no one died! Hell it was just another student style prank!

Twit.

 

[pk]

Paranoid bollocks as usual Dr Jazzz, not even worth addressing your typical toss regarding "spooks" and "MI5".

It was this comment that got me...

(his lawyer is surprisingly cute)

Are you on crack?? She looks like Stallone's mother!

 

[Citizen66]

Honestly, I can scarcely believe the way people are refusing to countenance any suggestion that the events of 21/7 could be anything other than a 'suicide' attack, when for a start, no-one died!

Of course nobody dies in an attempted suicide attack, Sherlock.
The same as nobody dies in an attempted murder.

 

[Jazzz]

So by that "logic" it wasnt' an attack at all, since no one died! Hell it was just another student style prank!

Twit.

No, you are twisting what I said. I'm not the one jumping to conclusions here.

How do you guys presume to know how much explosive was in their bombs?

 

[pk]

Either that or you're just a twit.

I'll plump for the latter.

 

[pk]

How do you guys presume to know how much explosive was in their bombs?

LOL that's rich coming from you!!!

 

[Bob_the_lost]

No, you are twisting what I said. I'm not the one jumping to conclusions here.

How do you guys presume to know how much explosive was in their bombs?

A fist sized piece of explosive is all you need to make a bomb. Look at pipe bombs for gods sakes, detonators the size of cigarettes are more than capable of removing hands, you don't need a ford transit to carry enough explosives to kill people. Hand grenades for example?

Stupid comment Jazzz. If there was any explosives in thier bags then they were there to kill people.

 

[Jazzz]

Do you know what the explosive was, Bob the Lost? I'm no expert, but if it was fertilizer (the type Osman claims he was taught to make), then aren't the quantities somewhat greater? Plus, it would obviously be completely pointless to have a bomb in which only the handler would die.

 

[editor]

Do you know what the explosive was, Bob the Lost? I'm no expert, but if it was fertilizer (the type Osman claims he was taught to make), then aren't the quantities somewhat greater? Plus, it would obviously be completely pointless to have a bomb in which only the handler would die.

What's the Filipino guy got to do with the London bombings, please?

 

[Badger Kitten]

Does a very multicultural London tube train easily fit the definition of 'the infidel' to working class guys from Leeds one of whom 'liked cricket and had no interest in politics', another whom worked in a school caring for disabled pupils? And two of them had pregnant wives/girlfriends. Rather than knowing and supporting their apparent heroic suicides, their family and friends were simply stunned.

All I can do is urge you to be very cautious with conclusions here.

As I suggested was the case, Hussain Osman is denying that his actions on 21/7 had anything to do with 7/7,




If that is indeed the case, there can surely be no question of 21/7 being a 'suicide' attack.

Do you think suicide bombers have horns and tails? Any cult member starts off as somebody's son or daughter, somebody's partner or friend. That doesn't preclude them from being part of a cult. How many neighbours have said ' oh , he seemed such a nice man?' after the murderer is arrested? How many rapists wives say 'But he'd never do that?' Bin Laden has a wife and many children. The point has already been made about the banality of evil.It is shockign that young British men wanted to blow themselves up and take many of us with them less than a month ago. But that is what they did. I am truly surprised, Dr J that you of all people, who seem to have no difficulty believing 6 unbelievable things before breakfast ( to misquote Lewis Carroll) should find that difficult to believe.

If you get on a train with a bomb, 2 weeks to the day after 52 people were blown up and 700 injured by people who got on trains with bombs , and the bombs are made in the same style as the ones that went off, and the components of further bombs are found a car linked to you and your mates, a flat linked to you is a bomb factory, and a nail bomb is found near another flat linked to your group, and you are known to have held extremist views, and Finsbury Park Mosque where you used to hang out has tried frantically to distance itself from your and your friend's extremist views, and you are caught on CCTV leaving said bombs, primed to explode, on tubes and buses in an pretty exact replica of the events a fortnight before...and then looking startled when they fail to go off because of what seems like a FUCKING LUCKY BREAK...and then go into hiding ...are you telling me that you expect that to be dismissed as some kind of student wheeze?

Of course his lawyer is going to come up with some attempt at mitigating bollocks, that is her job. And of course, you, the failed bomber, who delivered a forensic bonanza to the police are going to bluster and lie and change your story.

Of course I will wait for the trial. But it looks pretty damn overwhelming from where I'm standing.

 

[Citizen66]

Do you know what the explosive was, Bob the Lost? I'm no expert, but if it was fertilizer (the type Osman claims he was taught to make), then aren't the quantities somewhat greater? Plus, it would obviously be completely pointless to have a bomb in which only the handler would die.

The Brixton/Brick lane bomber used fertiliser bombs. Clearly he had enough in his bag to kill and maim.